New Thread for Bandit's BG Test Day(s)

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Bandit

Bandit

Member Since 2015
Ok,

So I didn't get to test till around 10:00am when I did it was 254. So I have him both (2) units. And a can.

The wife feed him around 5am, so he wouldn't come out for his normal 7:00am can. Would the early can have accounted for this higher number some 5hours later?

I laid down to take a nap and he jumped up to be with me, so I grabbed him. Did the BG test and the insulin shot all at the same time. He's aloof, but not combative, so you can just hold him down and carry him around (once you've got him). Gotta get a better method for getting a blood droplet, poor guy is becoming a pin cushion. I'll try the dry rice in a sock tonight.

I'm not really thinking about changing from Pozinc yet. The Dr. sort of just mentioned it since he was reacting so immediately to the Prozinc.
 
Good morning. We were hoping that you would post here before you sh0ot with your AMPS number. Since Bandit may be insulin sensitive, he probably should have a reduced dose, even lower than 2 units. I think in our previous posts, we were mentioning 1 unit but still wanted to see the AMPS number first.

So you may have a rather active day again. Will you be able to test at +2 or +3? Prozinc is a 12 hour cycle, so are you able to test and shoot again at 10pm tonight?
 
Sue brings up a good point. Can you get some high carb cat food (like Fancy Feast Gravy) instead of using the Karo. It is a little longer acting in keeping the numbers higher.

Here is a document for the Prozinc protocol. Please read as it may help you put things in perspective regarding Prozinc. Most new users start off with a much lower dose like 0.5 or 1 unit. Anyway, it explains in there. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/protocol-for-prozinc-pzi.109077/

Also great suggestions on food and diabetes info in general is found here. www.catinfo.org
 
Merlin said:
Good morning. We were hoping that you would post here before you sh0ot with your AMPS number. Since Bandit may be insulin sensitive, he probably should have a reduced dose, even lower than 2 units. I think in our previous posts, we were mentioning 1 unit but still wanted to see the AMPS number first.

So you may have a rather active day again. Will you be able to test at +2 or +3? Prozinc is a 12 hour cycle, so are you able to test and shoot again at 10pm tonight?
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I can't test today at +2, but the wife should be able to test at approximately +5.

Dr. said 2 units is still O.K and wants to see more numbers before changing anything. I'm in contact with her via Email and am reporting the numbers, and spread sheet.
 
79 at +5 the wife got it done. We may cut back on the dosage per Dr's orders. Depending on future numbers. We'll give him a rest from the testing till my next day off. And try and get a good curve then. Thank you everyone.
 
When you say "a rest from testing", you do still plan on getting the preshot tests before dosing? I hope? What did the dr. say as far as what the reduced dose should be?
 
It's important to keep testing before the dose...you don't want him to end up too low without knowing.
 
We consider it too dangerous to dose without knowing what the level is. We would urge you to test before each shot and consider the dose carefully.
 
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA) said:
When you say "a rest from testing", you do still plan on getting the preshot tests before dosing? I hope? What did the dr. say as far as what the reduced dose should be?
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Rachel said:
It's important to keep testing before the dose...you don't want him to end up too low without knowing.
Click to expand...
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
We consider it too dangerous to dose without knowing what the level is. We would urge you to test before each shot and consider the dose carefully.
Click to expand...

Oh no, I'm going to take preshot tests and possibly one interim at least. I meant a break from being a pin cushion all day.

Today he was AMPS=241, +5=79, PMPS=241. I'll try to test at +3 or +4 tonight.

I just won't be trying to get a full curve till the 25th (pesky job getting in the way). I've got the SS into the Dr. via Email, she wanted to see a few more numbers before recommending a reduction.

My only concern is if one of the PS numbers is lowish, then I'll have a decision to make. :nailbiting:

I feel like 1 unit would be safer, and perhaps that's what she'll recommend when she sees the latest numbers. But I'm a newb, so I'm going to stick with her game plan for now.

I can't thank you all enough. I'm starting to understand more fully the nature of the disease.
 
Good evening! Yeah, I am with you regarding 1 unit being better to at least start with. You can always increase the dose much easier than reducing. I know my vet was telling me to start off with 3 units 2 x a day. Fortunately, I was home testing and caught some mighty low numbers. After I switched vets and found a better one, I printed off the Prozinc protocol for him in which he really liked. So some vets are very open to additional information.

I know your vet wanted you to keep with the 2 units. Your PMPS tonight is a little lower than your AMPS so I am glad to hear that you are going to get a +3 or before bed test. If it looks like it is going to give you too low of number tonight and you need assistance, you may want to post in the Health forum as there are just a few of us tonight that are available. You were able to intervene well last night so you know what to do.
 
Well it happened. AMPS: 128

Called Dr., and she wants the 2 units administered. Feed him perhaps I'll leave some crunchies down before I go to work. Wife will be home soon to check on him.
 
Kevin, you and your wife will definitely need to monitor Bandit's BG closely today. I'm sorry to say this, but your vet just advised you to put Bandit in a rather precarious situation, as a 128 pre-shot # on an AlphaTrak is simply too low to be shooting insulin.

In this situation, what you'd normally do is stall - withholding food - and retest in 15-20 minutes, as anticipating a meal can make your cat's BG rise. Sometimes it takes several rounds of continued withholding of the food and BG re-checks before it rises enough to shoot safely. But if it hasn't risen enough within about an hour of your normal preshot time, you generally just skip that dose.

Please be sure to monitor today; you don't want another hypo episode here. (Is good you left some crunchies out, however.)
 
Hey Kevin, I am going out on a limb here to say that your vet is giving you some really bad advise. Unfortunately, a lot of vets don't know a lot about feline diabetes because they just don't treat that many of them as a lot of peeps euthanize their animal when they get the diabetes DX. The people here at the forum have had so much more experience with feline diabetes than most vets.

Your dose is too high as apparent for the two hypo episodes you had. After a hypo episode the protocol is to reduce the dose. You did not. Also, with a feral cat that you have trouble retrieving from under the bed, wouldn't it make more sense to be conservative with the dosing in the event of yet another hypo event? I understand you want to trust your vet, we all did. But the bottom line is that they just don't take the time to go back and get more instruction on this disease and what they got in school was probably a day's worth of information how ever long ago they went through vet school.

Please don't put Bandit at anymore risk to crash on you. Hypo events can kill. Or ask you vet to come and sit and monitor Bandit if he is so set on advising you such a high dose for a low number. A new diabetic cat should not shoot insulin 200 and under.

We are all just trying to help and keep Bandit safe and please don't take this personally. We all had to learn, some of us the hard way. We are just trying to spare you a heart ache. :bighug:
 
Kevin, it sounds like Bandit is pretty sensitive to insulin, which is normal after a hypo episode. I'd advise your wife to watch him CLOSELY and, probably, test fairly often. I know you want to give him a break, but when he is getting insulin at such low numbers, it's necessary.

I know the feeling of wanting to do what your vet says, but I can tell you that I would never give insulin at that BG level..no matter what. It's very dangerous. We'd really like to help you figure out a safer dose for Bandit, if you'll let us.
 
Kevin
Did you buy that AT2 meter from your vet?
Please ask her what the "normal range" of blood glucose is on that meter.
I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure she is telling you to inject insulin, and way too much insulin, into a cat who is within the range of normal BG. Which puts the life of your cat at risk.

I'm guessing that she's figuring that the food will push up his numbers, so by the time the insulin kicks in, his numbers will be higher. She may be correct. But it's sort of a game of Russian Roulette, with more than one bullet in the revolver. If his pancreas is functioning at all, the number isn't guaranteed to rise after eating.

The AAHA guidelines for dosing, which I pray she's familiar with, indicate that a dose should be reduced if a number below 150 is seen at any time during the day. Most of the numbers on your spreadsheet meet that criteria.

To be blunt, I don't know that she really knows what she's doing. If she does, then I don't know that she's doing a good job of explaining the risks to you. She might be of the mindset that cats on insulin can't go "hypo", in which case, you can find cases that prove her wrong right here on the board.
 
Kevin - Please understand: Carl is 100% spot-on in his comments. I am a longtime AlphaTrak user; I know - without question - that you do NOT shoot insulin into a cat when the blood glucose reads 128 on that meter; you don't do it even at 150 (not unless you are VERY experienced, have LOTS of data to support it AND monitor like a hawk through the cycle).

Ask anyone here @ FDMB who has ended up with a diabetic cat in the hospital for (extremely expensive) treatment after a bad hypo: Too many had vets who gave advice like your vet just gave you.
 
Kevin, I'm very concerned about Bandit. Will you post as soon as you can to let us know how he is doing?
 
I'm at work. The wife got a 79 at +5. It's the 4 hours in between that had me worried. I spoke with the Dr. twice too, thinking she hadn't seen the 128 on the spreadsheet yet. But through the secretary she wanted us to stay the course with 2 units. If it's that low again I'll wait and retest.
Thanks everybody.
 
Another option would be to have your wife log on to your account here in case she has a crisis while you're at work?
 
The only thing I can think of is the secretary was acting as a go between while on the phone. Perhaps something got lost in the translation.
 
Yep, it's irritating to talk through a third person when trying to get answers. I was lucky. My vet gave me her cell number and told me to call any time. I only did a couple of times but not due to a crisis in process. Just had a question before she got to work.
 
Thanks for updating us, Kevin! Hope she can get another test in an hour or so just to make sure he isn't going lower. :)
 
Thanks for all the concern,

PMPS: 163 Administered 2 units.

I don't think I'll be able to keep my eyes open long enough to get an interim test tonight. Perhaps I'll try a +2 right before I go to bed. Then we'll go for +8 in the morning. I work horrendous hours that vary, the wife works 2 jobs. I'm going to have to give him his AMPS 1 hour early tomorrow and then again an hour more earlier on Monday, due to work schedules. I will test right before each. I just hope he's not lower than the 128 due to the hour earlier.

All my equipment was what the Dr. recommended. She spoke with us about less expensive human testing equipment if we had a budget, but I opted for whatever she recommended. I set the meter to 93 per instructions according to the label for cats on the tests strip. I also checked it with the control agent.

It's the morning number that's always "good" or at least low. But that seems to be the biggest problem. I suppose there could be worse problems like numbers that are too high. ;0).
 
If you aren't comfortable giving two units, shoot less. One advantage to Prozinc is that it offers flexibility on dose size, and with timing of shots, should you choose to do either. Usually if you are going to shoot early, it's not a bad idea to decrease the dose some too.
 
All my equipment was what the Dr. recommended. She spoke with us about less expensive human testing equipment if we had a budget, but I opted for whatever she recommended. I set the meter to 93 per instructions according to the label for cats on the tests strip. I also checked it with the control agent.
Click to expand...

No problem with the meter. My concern is if she explained to you what "normal BG range" is on that meter. Did she give you a number where she said "don't give insulin if you see this number"?
 
following this thread close, my cat dropped to 39 two days ago. if I had listen to the person who answered the phone when I called the vet,my cat would be dead. I havent posted my story yet but i will. I know you want to trust your vet but even I am worry about bandit and Ive only been at this for about 6 weeks (again)

the first time around ( years ago ) with the help on this group, I got my cat into remission. I hope to do the same again.

Good Luck!
 
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA) said:
No problem with the meter. My concern is if she explained to you what "normal BG range" is on that meter. Did she give you a number where she said "don't give insulin if you see this number"?
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Hi,everyone,

Not really, or at least I don't remember her giving a number were we wouldn't administer insulin. At 400 when we brought him in, she probably never thought it would happen?

+10 : 107

I wanted to gear him back to an 8:00am shot because my hours at work are changing, but he's too low. The wife is going give him 1/2 can ,wait till 9:00 and retest, should be much safer then for 2 units, if sill low retest at 10:00am. I'll have to take a couple personal hours tomorrow to keep the 9:00am or 10:00am shot.

I'm going to email the Dr. Hopefully she responds. I'll ask if there is a "too low" threshold.
 
If he is too low to shoot this morning, skip. It will let you get back on track time wise and it will let his body rest. It cannot be good for him to continue bouncing around with these low numbers.

I think you can "feel" our concerns. Your vet is advising shooting numbers that we think are too low to shoot, with a dose that we see as too high for the numbers you are seeing, and with results the AT meter site indicates are too low for results of those shots. We are fearful for Bandit and afraid his body cannot continue to deal with this. All we can do is express those concerns, as we have seen similar cats end up at the vet, getting supplemental glucose and sometimes being impossible to revive.
 
Just so you know, Kevin: @Sue and Oliver (GA) helped me through some rough spots with Bat-Bat on ProZinc when we first landed here. And both Sue @ @Carl & Polly & Bob (GA) have been here as advisors for a very long time. I would strongly encourage you to listen to them, regardless of your vet's (sorry, but I have to say it) wrong-headed advice about shooting 2 units when BG is clearly too darned low to keep doing this safely. Please trust this: Neither Sue nor Carl would ever knowingly steer you wrongly* - and they both know a LOT. Am keeping good thoughts for you and Bandit. All of us here are rooting for you.

*(I suspect, if you follow Sue & Carl's excellent advice, your Bandit could be insulin-free - safely - a lot sooner than you might think could happen.)
 
What do you mean you set the meter at 93? I use alpha trac the only time I set the meter is if the number in strip bottle is different. Normally it's a 37 or 38 for cats.

If you have it set for 93 then I wonder that your readings are wrong.
 
woodsywife said:
What do you mean you set the meter at 93? I use alpha trac the only time I set the meter is if the number in strip bottle is different. Normally it's a 37 or 38 for cats.

If you have it set for 93 then I wonder that your readings are wrong.
Click to expand...
No, I also use alphatrak and my current vial of strips is a 93 -- since I've been at this since August, the strips have all been 93 or 38
 
139 at +11

So better,

But tomorrow is going to be nerve wracking with both of us going to work in AM.
I may take some personal time
 
Bandit said:
139 at +11

So better,

But tomorrow is going to be nerve wracking with both of us going to work in AM.
I may take some personal time
Click to expand...
Kevin - It doesn't need to be so nerve wracking. It's all stressful enough, especially at the very beginning But you have to give a dose that you feel comfortable with and that is safe.
 
So you would be shooting in about an hour right? Will you please post the number you get BEFORE you shoot? We really really want to help you keep him safe...
 
Carol & Murphy said:
No, I also use alphatrak and my current vial of strips is a 93 -- since I've been at this since August, the strips have all been 93 or 38
Click to expand...

Wow let me check the 2 new bottles I just got yesterday. I checked them both are 38. I've never had one higher than that for over a year now. Expires dates are good. At least I won't be surprised if I see future ones different.
 
139 at +11

So better, not in crisis mode LOL.

But tomorrow is going to be nerve wracking with both of us going to work in the AM.
 
Hi All,

See SS for details.

Wife gave him some Karo at +5 in the AM today because he had slipped to 64. Dr. hasn't got a hold of us yet, hopefully she checks her emails early tomorrow. I'm going to try and shoot a little early tonight (testing first of course), we have to get back to a 7am/7pm schedule, because that's the only realistic one that will work all the time for the long run.
 
Kevin, how much are you going to shoot ? You should not be shooting anything with a 139 preshot. You've had 2 documented hypos in 4 days, and probably on the other days except there weren't tests. Clearly 2 units is way too much.
 
Hey Kevin, since you are already feeling a stressed about leaving tomorrow and in shooting possibly a low number like the ones that you have received or lower, you can always reduce your dose to like 0.50u or 1u (depending on the number) or even skip the shot. It is only one cycle and your risk of a hypo could be minimized. Let your gut tell you what you are comfortable with. If you are stressed and are feeling uneasy, there is a reason for that.
 
Hi
+4=64
+5 (1/2 can and a small teaspoon of Karo)
+6=101.
+10=132

And I only have one test strip left o_O. We didn't notice it running low as we pulled them out. I'm hoping the Vets has test strips I can purchase from them tomorrow. Worst case scenario I'll get a human meter and figure out the conversion(?).

So we're going to shoot 2units at 12hours (10:00pm). At PMPS he's always the highest. The wife is going to work from home tomorrow morning, and she'll test at +11 or at AMPS with the last test strip. We'll have to try and adjust the 12hr time the next two nights. He's also getting kind of sensitive around the ears, even though we're getting quicker and better at testing.

I'm sure we'll here from the Dr, or we'll call her tomorrow and get her input. That will tell me a lot about how I want to proceed.

He's batting a ping pong ball around right now.
 
Definitely get strips, you can't keep shooting after you run out of strips. He could be at 90 and you won't know it. A relion meter and strips (I think you can buy a box of 20?) can probably be had for $30 bucks at wallyworld. I'm not sure, I haven't bought any in over 2 years.
The "conversion" is simple. Just about everyone here, and all our charts, protocols, etc. are "set up" for human meter numbers. There isn't a clear cut "conversion" however. But "we" all understand human meter numbers better than pet meter numbers. And if it's a short term thing, if you plan on staying with the AT2 once you can get strips, it's only a few days of "confusion".
 
Nothing to convert.
For ProZinc, don't go below 50 mg/dL on a human meter and don't shoot below 150 mg/dL on a human meter unless and until you have mid-cycle test data showing it would be safe.
 
4am

No signs of any low BG. He's spunky and prowling around. Dunno what got me up this early. I'll grab a coffee, keep an eye on him, then get some sleep before work.

Thanks everyone.
 
Whew,

Took me about 20 phone calls to vets, but I found a place that sold strips for my meter. We're going to take a break from testing other than in the morning and when ever Bandit seems comfortable. He's getting skittish at any attempt to coral him. He still doesn't put up a fight once we get him because he's so gentle, but testing sends him into hiding for over an hour sometimes if it's repetitive. With the Wednesday curve coming up we don't want him to become impossible to handle. Dr. felt it was most important to get that day in. His night time numbers are consistently high enough not to need a PMPS. But morning we'll still make sure he's not too low, if it's lower than 180 Dr. wants the dosage reduce to 1.5.u.

So don't worry if I'm not posting BGs, as often as before, we're in frequent contact with the Dr. and keeping a close eye on the squirmy little guy.

I promise.
 
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