New, numbers all over the place, might request change in insulin?

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shadycat

Member Since 2012
Hello, I was here years ago with my kitty Shady who went into remission pretty quickly but unfortunately passed with lymphoma 6 years ago at 14.5 years old. Now I am back with my 17 year old Ella. She was dx a month ago and is more difficult than Shady to test, adjust diet, etc. I'm a little confused what may have brought it on, if it matters- in late January she had a small amount of vomiting followed by not eating at all for a couple of days and barely eating for about 5 days. She was on Cerenia and appetite stimulant for about a week and slowly went back to normal. From a GI bloodwork panel, my vet said she had had pancreatitis, something on the bloodwork indicated that? and also early small bowel disease which she went on low dose prednisolone for, but weaned her off the prednisolone when she was dx with diabetes. At first I thought the steroid might have brought on the diabetes but then I realized, she had pancreatitis, if that damaged her pancreas that could have caused the diabetes.

In April I noticed her drinking more, but she also has kidney disease so she drinks a lot anyway. The beginning of May I tested her blood sugar at home and it was in the 500s. Went to the vet and it was 600+. To complicate things that is part of my problem- I basically have 2 vets now. My regular vet is a mobile vet, but when I called her about Ella's blood sugar, she said she didn't keep insulin in stock and would have to order it, and also couldn't have Ella all day to do a curve (which I didn't want to do at the vet anyway), but anyway said I should go to another vet to get her started on insulin. The new vet started her on 2u Vetsulin 2x daily and I was supposed to do a curve at home, but was not successful. Ella is very difficult to test, so they put a Libre Freestyle on her. I have attached her spreadsheet, but her numbers were all over the place. Generally high, but once got down into the 100s. I'm not sure what may cause the difference in nadirs, if it is what/how much she eats? I always feed her pre-shot but sometimes she doesn't eat much. The Libre failed after a week instead of the two weeks it is supposed to last.

Based on her numbers during that week, the vet wanted to raise her dose to 3u 2x/day. I was not comfortable with that much of a jump, especially because they were going to wait a week to put another libre on and knowing I am not able to home test her easily, so I went up to 2.5u. A week later they put another Libre on, I had planned to go up to 3 u once we got the Libre on as long as her numbers weren't too low, but when I saw her nadirs were usually in the 100s I thought that was too much and stayed with 2.5. Her bg is still all over the place, sometimes the nadir is in the 100s, sometimes the 300s, and this Saturday she got right at or slightly below 50. I had been out of town for the morning and was very upset to see that, I gave her some dry treats immediately, but she was acting normal. After that I went back down to 2u that night, but then back up to 2.25 or a hair below 2.5 since then.

Part of what is hard to navigate is the two vets situation, the vet who puts the libre on and prescribed the insulin likes to use Vetsulin, and Prozinc would be her second choice. Our regular vet who has never put a Libre on and doesn't seem like she wants to start (even if she did, I'm not sure I would want Ella to be her first case), prefers Glargine and Prozinc as a second choice. It seems like the Vetsulin raises and lowers Ella's BG so quickly- from what I have read, Glargine would be longer action, is that correct? and Prozinc is similar to Vetsulin or maybe not quite as fast? So I wonder if she would be better off on Glargine. My regular vet is willing to prescribe it but she seems kind of hesitant about wanting the other vet who put the Libre on to be on board with it too, but that vet doesn't seem to use glargine much, any time I've mentioned it, she says it is too soon to switch, or if we did that Prozinc would be the next option. I don't know what to do. I could ask my regular vet to rx glargine if that would be better, but Ella is extremely difficult, almost impossible to home test, so I still need the new vet to put the Libre on, and not sure if she would want to if she isn't treating her anymore? Maybe.

Her diet is mostly wet food but the type in gravy (fancy feast grilled and elegant medleys)- I know this is high carb, but she will very rarely/almost never eat pate. I also give her dry treats to get her to sit still for shots, tried freeze dried chicken and salmon but she doesn't like it. So her diet is not low carb but I don't think I would be successful changing it.

I am open to any and all advice or observations on dose or insulin type, and anything else that may help. I need to call the vet(s) soon about her dose after she got so low this weekend. If I want to switch insulin I feel like I should soon while this Libre still has a week left on it, unless I get another put on. Edit to add that she seems to sleep and be lethargic more than usual- that is kind of hard to gauge too, at 17 she was not super active. But seems even less so now. So I worry she is feeling poorly with her extreme blood sugar ups and downs. :(

Thanks!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mZheK9_JPaZJBHBsJJwHn-F8pyzHDB7nf-k5YDL3ac0/edit?usp=sharing
 
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Oh your poor girl! Sounds like she is having a heck of a time lately. The pancreatitis very well could have caused the diabetes - it’s the reason my cat is out of remission after 2 years.

As for insulin, Vetsulin is not a good choice for cats. It tends to drop their blood sugar very fast which can be hard on them. This can also cause their body to “panic” and release stored sugar, which may be the cause of some of the crazy numbers you’re seeing. Vetsulin also only usually lasts about 6-8 hours in cats. Prozinc is a similar pet specific insulin, but it tends to be more gentle and usually lasts about 10-12 hours. Glargine (lantus) is a human insulin. It is also a good choice, but works a little differently. Both Prozinc and glargine are good options for cats.

Is your cat very food motivated? My Sophie was a nightmare to test when I first started but she loooooves treats and I was eventually able to slowly get her used to the testing by bribing her at every step with treats
 
Thanks! Not as much as I wish she was, I can distract her with treats a little but she hates her ears or paws being messed with so she squirms, pulls away, hides, etc. I am just relying on the Libre monitor and hoping to get her settled on a dose where I don't feel like I have to test frequently. I can have have another put on, but I don't think they are supposed to have them on constantly- I guess just the glue on the skin? I will call both vets (ugh) tomorrow and ask about Prozinc or Glargine. It is hard juggling 2 vets who have differing opinions, I feel like I agree more with my regular vet, but she isn't the one who can do the libre. :/
 
My Chloe was also a fiend for gravy and neither she nor my civvie care for pates either. Fancy Feast flaked varieties are low carb and are not quite as firm as the pates, so that might be worth a try. I mixed them in with the gravy food for a few days and they seem to be okay with the switch.

I also just switched from Vetsulin to Lantus. She was on 1U BID Vetsulin last fall and went into remission (according to the vet), but I wasn't doing home testing so I have no idea if it was just a good string of days or what. Now she is out of remission and has been MUCH harder to get her BG under control. She was on Vetsulin after her second dx and we made a couple of trips to the ER vet because her symptoms were just all over the place (mostly HYPER, not HYPO).

I think my vet defaults to Vetsulin because it is cheaper than Lantus (which was also offered to me). I wish I had done my research and picked the more expensive option with better rates of control and remission earlier on.
 
Yes, it can definitely be hard juggling two vets! Hopefully they will agree to switch to one of those two insulins.

As for now, I don't typically like to give dosing advice but there really aren't too many experienced Vetsulin users around anymore, so I can tell you what I would do as a former Vetsulin user, and maybe others will chime in :cat: With Vetsulin, you want to take a 0.25 reduction if they drop below 90, so I would reduce the dose back down to 2.25u. You also want to be cautious because the Libre takes a different kind of BG reading than ear pokes, and I believe the reading you get from it is delayed. As long as you are seeing the mid blues on the 2.25 I would not increase the dose. The high numbers you are seeing look to me like a combo of bouncing, which I described above, and the insulin just wearing off. Unless she drops below 90, I would hold that dose for 7 days. If she drops below 90 at any time, reduce again by 0.25u. What is your feeding schedule like for her? One thing that helped my cat when she was on Vetsulin was feeding a small snack at the onset which for her was +2. This can help slow down the huge drop, which is one thing that can trigger bouncing.

The worst part for my cat when I started testing was also that she hated her ears being touched, and also just being forced to sit still for 10 seconds lol. I started by messing with her ears a few times a day, then treat afterwards. Then I started holding her in place for a few seconds, then treat afterwards. And I just slowly starting working up to full out testing her and after about 2 weeks she stopped acting like I was trying to murder her :rolleyes:
 
insulin type
The (2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats recommends using Lantus or Prozinc to manage feline diabetes - could be worth the discussion with your vet.
not low carb
Have you checked the food chart out? Perhaps there is a food on there that's less than 10% carbs (ideally more around 5%) that she might like? here's the link - https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

I know nothing about vetsulin but you may want to read through the vetsulin board and the pinned information at the top - https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/caninsulin-vetsulin-and-n-nph.19/


Hang in there :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
One note about Prozinc and Lantus. Prozinc is a longer acting insulin than Vetsulin. With Vetsulin, the duration is somewhere between 8 - 10 hours. Prozinc and Lantus will give you 12 hour duration. With Lantus, there is carry over between the cycles. It is very different than either Prozinc or Vetsulin. You may want to look at the sticky notes at the top if each of the forums to get a feel for each of those insulins.

Lantus is expensive. Many people purchase Lantus from Canada in order to get it at a reasonable price. There are generic/biosimilar forms that are now available -- Basaglar and Semglee. Glargine (the generic of Lantus, Basaglar, Semglee) is available at any pharmacy. If your vet doesn't stock Prozinc, you can order through Chewy's since it's a pet insulin.
 
What is your feeding schedule like for her? One thing that helped my cat when she was on Vetsulin was feeding a small snack at the onset which for her was +2. This can help slow down the huge drop, which is one thing that can trigger bouncing.

She free feeds/grazes. I feed her biggest portions about 15-30 min before her shot, but sometimes she doesn't eat much and returns to it during the day to snack. That is an interesting strategy and I may give it a try, but she hasn't been eating great so I feel like she needs every opportunity to eat.
 
The (2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats recommends using Lantus or Prozinc to manage feline diabetes - could be worth the discussion with your vet.

Have you checked the food chart out? Perhaps there is a food on there that's less than 10% carbs (ideally more around 5%) that she might like? here's the link - https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

I know nothing about vetsulin but you may want to read through the vetsulin board and the pinned information at the top - https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/caninsulin-vetsulin-and-n-nph.19/


Hang in there :bighug::bighug::bighug:
I will check out the food chart and see some other options. She is so picky :( someone above recommended fancy feast flaked so I'll definitely try that.

If anyone has recommendations for any other gravy type that is relatively low carb please lmk. I feel like I found some when Shady was diabetic (maybe weruva?) But can't remember now.
 
I think all gravies are going to be too high in carbs. But the chart also has FF in broth. I haven’t tried them yet, so that may also be an option.
 
Tiki Cat is shredded - not pate. Almost all of their flavors are low carb. Do you have Dr. Lisa's food chart?
Is that the one JaxBenji linked above? If not, I'm sure I can search and find it. I need to go thru it, I hadn't tried many different foods knowing how picky she is, but I should try.

Not sure if I should start a new thread, but she is due (20 min past actually) for her next shot and still at 215 (and libre indicates steady instead of rising). She has been relatively steady all day. She didn't eat much dinner (attempted to give her FF pate and she only ate a few bites) so maybe that's why, but she crunched on a little dry food a couple of hours ago which should definitely have raised it. She just had some FF broth with her blood pressure med in it. Any advice on shooting or waiting? At 200 as much as the vetsulin usually drops it I am hesitant to give her any unless it was just like 0.5 u. My vet didn't give me much guidance :banghead:
 
She free feeds/grazes. I feed her biggest portions about 15-30 min before her shot, but sometimes she doesn't eat much and returns to it during the day to snack. That is an interesting strategy and I may give it a try, but she hasn't been eating great so I feel like she needs every opportunity to eat.

I definitely know the struggle. Mine is usually a food fiend, but when's she recovering from pancreatitis she is so finicky about wanting to eat, I usually just let her whenever she wants to. The most important thing with Vetsulin is that Ella has some food on board before you give her the shot, which you are doing :cat:

Weruva has some gravy foods that are low carbs. Here's the link to their gravy line with the nutrition info (The ME profile is the one you want). They also have a lot of other kinds as well!

https://weruva.com/nutrition-landing/bff-omg-ni/

I know you said she is picky about pates, but I believe the Friskies extra gravy pates are low carb. I think the "gravy" is actually more just like a meat juice.
 
Not sure if I should start a new thread...
It's not necessary on Health. I tend to not be a big fan of threads that go on for a long time (e.g., more than 50 posts -- and I'd prefer a lot shorter) since it's a pain to read through if your subject line indicates you have a question and there's a lot to wade through. It's a matter of personal preference. Some of the Insulin Support Groups, like Lantus, ask that you post one thread per cat per day.
 
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