New members - G and Panter - diagnosed last month

Status
Not open for further replies.
Panters-mom

Panters-mom

Member Since 2020
Hi everyone,

My name is Goeril and my furry handsome friend is Panter. Panter is a 9 year old male. He has been living semi-wild for years until he came to us about two-three years ago. He loves to be outside chasing mice. He has a cat door so he basically does what he wants when he wants:) He has turned in to be a very friendly and easy going guy. Luckily, as it makes it easier to treat his new status as a diabetic. He was diagnosed last month, December 2. 2019. Took him to the vet as he started to get very skinny and was drinking a lot. His blood sugar level was up in 30. We started with insulin (Insulatard) 2’ - twice a day. After one and two weeks his BG was 25 both times. Raised insulin to 3' in the morning and 2' in the evening for two weeks. BG down to 24. Raised insulin to 3' + 3' for a bit more than a week. Down to 17. Then I learned to take BG at home - and that was a relief - and of course much more useful and accurate. Panter gets really stressed going to the vet. But he went up to 21 again. We raised the insulin to 4' + 3' - this is where we are right now. This is the history in short.

Right now - I'm planning to make a BG curve. The vet say that they would recommend to do this in the clinic over 24 hours. But I had to refuse, first of all, I don't believe it would be beneficial as Panter would be really stressed, he wouldn't eat the same food and then I can't afford it either. And now we can take our own 'BG'. So this is where we're at. - so far I've not got it very detailed - first try on a curve was just 4 blood samples during yesterday - but I'm getting better in drawing blood - so it will improve.;)

Again Im using Insulatard - 4' in the morning and 3' in the evening. I measure on Accu Check for humans. He gets mostly wet food (regular patee, not sauce (Purina Gold, Miamor, Animonda, Latz/Felix(well this one in gelé)(He doesn't like the diabetes wet food) - and some dry - but only Royal Canin diabetes. He is too skinny right now - this is of cause also a challenge. Otherwise he is in good shape and as far as we know he has always been healthy.

I will try to list what I've done the two last days - sorry I'm not familiar with the different terms on things yet - I hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say:)

Yesterday:
7.30 - 13 h after last insulin - before food - BG 25.1 (strangely high)
7.30 - insulin 4' + wet food
13.30 - 6 hours after insulin - BG 15.3
13.30 - wet food
18.30 - insulin 3' + wet food
20.30 - 2 h after ins - BG 18.3
22.30 - 4 h after ins - BG 15.5
00.00 - dry food 20 gram for the night (he has a feeder with timer - he also get some small nibbles timed during the day - mostly to train him to come home for meals and shots)

Today:
7.30 - insulin 4' + wet food
9.30 - 2 h after ins - BG 18.6
12.30 - 5 h after ins - BG 13.8
13.30 - wet food
16.00 - 8 h after ins - BG 21.4
18.00 - 10,5 h after ins - BG 23.8
18.00 - insulin 3' + wet food (I normally wait to 18.30-19.30, but I shot it now because GB was so high...?)
20.30 - 2 h after ins - BG 19.6
22.30 - 4 h after ins - BG 17.8
00.00 - dry food
7.00 - 13 h after ins - BG 26.1
7.00 - ins 4' + wet food

I'm thinking - it looks a bit 'yo-yo' here doesn't it? My vet says insulin 4' + 3' is already high, so she don't think is a good idea to raise it at the moment... Should I adjust his meals somehow or do you have any suggestions? Any advice would be really appreciated!

Thanks for reading this. I'm very happy to find this site. My former experience with groups similar as this has been amazing. I had a CDK kitty and got a lot of help from Tanyas Comprehensive guide. He lived 5 years with Hyperthyroid and three years with CDK. He turned 18 years old. So now it's Panters turn to get a bit extra help on his journey.

Look forward to learn from this forum!

Best regards, Goeril and Panter :)
 
Last edited:
Welcome Goeril! My, Panter is such a handsome boy! And I see that you have already set up a spreadsheet for him, which is awesome.
It might be helpful to let us know what country you and Panter live in, as this will help greatly with food recommendations.
I'm a newbie myself, so I'm not going to make any dosage suggestions, but I will say that my Billy showed huge improvement after switching his diet to only wet food with less than 10% carbs. You can check out his spreadsheet and see how awesomely he is doing. The problem with the Royal Canin dry food is that it's basically made of carbs. Just look at the top ingredients: Chicken meal, corn, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, wheat, chicken fat, wheat gluten, natural flavors, brown rice, pea fiber, rice hulls. Yes, many vets prescribe it, but this message board has taught me that a slow switch to a truly low carb wet diet can make big positive changes possible.
You rock for taking such good care of Panter! There's tons of good information on this site that will help you. You might want to start here with New? How You Can Help Us Help You.
 
Welcome!!

One very quick question. Insulatard is not available in the US. From a quick search, it sounds like it's a long acting insulin. Is there any way for you to find out from your vet or a pharmacist what other insulin Insulatard is most similar to?
 
Hi Juls and Billy, thanks for the warm welcome! We are living in Norway. Well, I have tried to start a spreadsheet but not very successfully yet. A lot to learn for sure. Look forward to that. And yes, I wondered a bit about this dry food, even it is for diabetes cats. He has the opportunity to a portion of this dry food from midnight - and that's it for about 7-8 hours - and the BG was really high in the morning yesterday. Of course, the insulin is at its lowest as well. I also heard that it can be good to fast for some hours - is this through or only for humans maybe? With other words, maybe stop giving food in the night time? Any ideas?
Thanks again, Juls! G+P
 
Last edited:
Panters-mom said:
Thanks Sarah! This sounds about right. "Cats seem instead to experience a 1-2 hour onset, a peak action of 4-6 hours, and a total duration of 8-12 hours maximum, according to user surveys on Felinediabetes.com"
Click to expand...
If it is similar to NPH (I’ll let others see what they think), it tends to be one of the more harsh insulins for kitties and it usually does not last a full 12 hours, usually more like 8 hours
 
Panters-mom said:
I also heard that it can be good to fast for some hours - is this through or only for humans maybe? With other words, maybe stop giving food in the night time? Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Some members stop giving food half-way through a cycle, so 6 hours after injection. Other members take food away 2 hours before injection. This makes sure you aren't giving insulin on a BGL that's been upped by food, and that your cat is hungry enough to eat when he gets his insulin. I leave extra wet food out at night for Billy, and make sure I take up any food that's left 2 hours before AM testing. I'm not sure why some members do a 2 hour period of no food, and some do a 6 hour. Perhaps it depends on which type of insulin is used, or maybe it's because every cat is different.
 
Sarah&Soph said:
If it is similar to NPH (I’ll let others see what they think), it tends to be one of the more harsh insulins for kitties and it usually does not last a full 12 hours, usually more like 8 hours
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with NPH but the description given for Insulatard also sounds very like Caninsulin/Vetsulin which is indeed a harsh insulin. It can and does work in some cats but other insulins may be more suitable, depending on what's available in Norway of course.

Good luck Goeril and Panter! There is loads of help here so keep asking questions :)
 
Thanks Diana! Have to check into that. Unfortunately I find it hard to ask my vet - as I believe she feels that Im questioning her decision... I know she don't like me to seek advice on the net. But 'my oh my' has that helped me before. :-) G
 
Panters-mom said:
Thank you Gabby! Nice to be here! I will ask my vet about Insulatard. This is what I found on the net in https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/3848/smpc. What I know is that it takes about 1,5 hours before it starts working and has effect up to 24 hours...(it says on the package). Best, Goeril
Click to expand...

Goeril, just to clarify - if the package says that this insulin lasts up to 24 hours, that may be for humans. The link from Sarah above is more specifc about how dogs and cats metabolise the insulin. Basically, cats metabolise at a faster rate - which is one of the reasons that this insulin may not be ideal. But it may be the first insulin of choice in Norway. Here in the UK, Caninsulin is often the first insulin a vet prescribes. It's a question of gathering data to see how any particular cat responds.
 
Panters-mom said:
Thanks Diana! Have to check into that. Unfortunately I find it hard to ask my vet - as I believe she feels that Im questioning her decision... I know she don't like me to seek advice on the net. But 'my oh my' has that helped me before. :) G
Click to expand...

A pretty frequent comment here! Vets don't like their advice questioned, obviously. Some vets mellow over time if you can show that your research findings are from a reliable source. Others will be more stubborn and outright refuse to even listen. A good vet will listen, discuss and work with you to get the best outcome.
 
Diana&Tom said:
I'm not familiar with NPH but the description given for Insulatard also sounds very like Caninsulin/Vetsulin which is indeed a harsh insulin. It can and does work in some cats but other insulins may be more suitable, depending on what's available in Norway of course.

Good luck Goeril and Panter! There is loads of help here so keep asking questions :)
Click to expand...

I believe NPH and Vetsulin/Caninsulin work fairly similar (they’re in the same ISG so at least somewhat similar lol), I think the main difference is that NPH is a U100 human insulin and Vetsulin is a U40 pet insulin. So I agree it’s also possible that the info on it lasting 24 hours is for humans
 
I googled and this are the types of insulin available in Norway:

Different types of insulin (in Norway) - (google translation)

Extra fast-acting insulin is taken with meal. Set either when you start eating or immediately after the meal.
Examples are
  • Apidra (contains insulin glulisin),
  • Humalog (contains insulin lispro)
  • NovoRapid (contains insulin aspart).
Fast-acting insulin such as
  • Actrapid (containing human insulin) is added 15-30 minutes before a meal.

Insulin with medium long working time and fast onset effect is taken with meal. It is important to mix well before use by rolling the insulin between your hands and / or turning gently upside down sometimes.
Examples are
  • Humalog Mix25 (contains insulin lispro and insulin lispro protamine)
  • NovoMix 30 (contains insulin aspart and protamine crystallized insulin aspart).


Medium-long-acting insulin is usually used in the morning and / or evening, giving effect after approx. 1- 1½ hours. How long the effect lasts varies from one type to another. This type of insulin should be mixed before use by rolling between the hands and / or turning gently upside down sometimes.
Examples are
  • Humulin NPH,
  • Insulatard
  • Insuman Basal (contains insulin isophane human)


Long-acting insulin is taken 1-2 times a day, depending on the type of use.
Examples are
  • Lantus / Toujeo (contains insulin glargine)
  • Levemir (contains insulin detemir)
  • Tresiba (contains insulin degludec).
 
Panters-mom said:
I googled and this are the types of insulin available in Norway:

Different types of insulin (in Norway) - (google translation)

Extra fast-acting insulin is taken with meal. Set either when you start eating or immediately after the meal.
Examples are
  • Apidra (contains insulin glulisin),
  • Humalog (contains insulin lispro)
  • NovoRapid (contains insulin aspart).
Fast-acting insulin such as
  • Actrapid (containing human insulin) is added 15-30 minutes before a meal.

Insulin with medium long working time and fast onset effect is taken with meal. It is important to mix well before use by rolling the insulin between your hands and / or turning gently upside down sometimes.
Examples are
  • Humalog Mix25 (contains insulin lispro and insulin lispro protamine)
  • NovoMix 30 (contains insulin aspart and protamine crystallized insulin aspart).


Medium-long-acting insulin is usually used in the morning and / or evening, giving effect after approx. 1- 1½ hours. How long the effect lasts varies from one type to another. This type of insulin should be mixed before use by rolling between the hands and / or turning gently upside down sometimes.
Examples are
  • Humulin NPH,
  • Insulatard
  • Insuman Basal (contains insulin isophane human)


Long-acting insulin is taken 1-2 times a day, depending on the type of use.
Examples are
  • Lantus / Toujeo (contains insulin glargine)
  • Levemir (contains insulin detemir)
  • Tresiba (contains insulin degludec).
Click to expand...

Ok so you do have more options, if the Insulatard doesn't quite do the job. It's quite early days really to say, and once you get more regular data you'll build up a picture.

My slight concern at the moment might be that your current dose is quite high and you've been increasing in whole units - it is better really to increase by 0.5u at a time to make sure you're not giving too much or skipping over the "ideal" dose. As you'll come to see, treating FD is a marathon not a sprint - it can take a while to find just the right dose in conjunction with the right diet.

And on the subject of food - try to get rid of the dry if possible. Even a small amount can raise bg quite significantly in some cats. You don't say what proportion of dry you're feeding but if you do take it away, be aware that bg may drop and therefore the insulin dose may be higher than needed.
 
Panters-mom said:
Hi Juls and Billy, thanks for the warm welcome! We are living in Norway. Well, I have tried to start a spreadsheet but not very successfully yet. A lot to learn for sure. Look forward to that. And yes, I wondered a bit about this dry food, even it is for diabetes cats. He has the opportunity to a portion of this dry food from midnight - and that's it for about 7-8 hours - and the BG was really high in the morning yesterday. Of course, the insulin is at its lowest as well. I also heard that it can be good to fast for some hours - is this through or only for humans maybe? With other words, maybe stop giving food in the night time? Any ideas?
Thanks again, Juls! G+P
Click to expand...

Hej Goeril,

Jag heter Ann och finns i Göteborg i Sverige. Och har lång erfarenhet av kattdiabetes.
 
Lantus and levimir are good insulins for cats. Used twice a day.
NPH insulin in cats often only lasts 6-8 hours. Used twice a day.
Caninsulin/Vetsulin 8-10 hours in many cats. Used twice a day.

Never heard of Insulatard.
 
Deb & Wink said:
Lantus and levimir are good insulins for cats. Used twice a day.
NPH insulin in cats often only lasts 6-8 hours. Used twice a day.
Caninsulin/Vetsulin 8-10 hours in many cats. Used twice a day.

Never heard of Insulatard.
Click to expand...

Insulatard is used in Nordic countries. Simba was given that in the beginning too, before the Animal Hospital changed it to Lantus.
 
Diana&Tom said:
My slight concern at the moment might be that your current dose is quite high and you've been increasing in whole units - it is better really to increase by 0.5u at a time to make sure you're not giving too much or skipping over the "ideal" dose.
Click to expand...

Thanks Diane. But I've got this pen that only goes in whole units...? Every 'click' is a unit...
 
Diana&Tom said:
And on the subject of food - try to get rid of the dry if possible. Even a small amount can raise bg quite significantly in some cats. You don't say what proportion of dry you're feeding but if you do take it away, be aware that bg may drop and therefore the insulin dose may be higher than needed.
Click to expand...

I have given him about 20 gram (a portion) for the night - the feeder opens up at 00.00. Then he gets about 10-20 gram divided in small portions during the day. He gets about 4 potions (350g) of wet food - 1,5 in the morning 7.30, 1 around 13.30, 1 around 18.30. 1/2 around 22.00. (+ the mice he and his "brother in arms" are catching, or rather his younger cat brother is catching - he is eating:) It's a bit much maybe, but he is very hungry and has lost quit some weight. To stop the dry food in daytime is easy, but if I stop dryfood at night - should I replace it with wet or let him fast do you think?
 
Panters-mom said:
I have given him about 20 gram (a portion) for the night - the feeder opens up at 00.00. Then he gets about 10-20 gram divided in small portions during the day. He gets about 4 potions (350g) of wet food - 1,5 in the morning 7.30, 1 around 13.30, 1 around 18.30. 1/2 around 22.00. (+ the mice he and his "brother in arms" are catching, or rather his younger cat brother is catching - he is eating:) It's a bit much maybe, but he is very hungry and has lost quit some weight. To stop the dry food in daytime is easy, but if I stop dryfood at night - should I replace it with wet or let him fast do you think?
Click to expand...
Unregulated diabetics are always hungry so don't deprive him of food. A little wet left out overnight is fine.
 
Sarah&Soph said:
If it is similar to NPH
Click to expand...
I say it is very similar to ProZinc (ProZinc® (protamine zinc recombinant human insulin) (http://www.prozinc.us/content/dam/internet/ah/prozinc/us_EN/documents/ProZinc_Product_Info.pdf)
since:
"Insulatard is a long-acting insulin. It can be given once or twice a day, with or without a fast-acting insulin (given at meal times), according to the doctor’s recommendation. "
"Insulatard contains insulin mixed with another substance, protamine, in an ‘isophane’ form which is absorbed much more slowly during the day. "
https://www.drugs.com/uk/insulatard.html
 
Larry and Kitties said:
I say it is very similar to ProZinc (ProZinc® (protamine zinc recombinant human insulin) (http://www.prozinc.us/content/dam/internet/ah/prozinc/us_EN/documents/ProZinc_Product_Info.pdf)
since:
"Insulatard is a long-acting insulin. It can be given once or twice a day, with or without a fast-acting insulin (given at meal times), according to the doctor’s recommendation. "
"Insulatard contains insulin mixed with another substance, protamine, in an ‘isophane’ form which is absorbed much more slowly during the day. "
https://www.drugs.com/uk/insulatard.html
Click to expand...
I was also basing it off the link I posted which, under “Also Known As”, lists “Novolin N, ReliOn/Novolin NPH, Protaphane”. Although I can’t comment on the credibility of the page!
 
I've finally got some sort of a curve here - unfortunately I don't understand how to put it in the spreadsheet...

Insulin 4' in the morning and 3' in the evening - four meals a day (1 dry) + some snacks after BGtests.


7.30 - 13 h after insulin BG 25.1
7.30 - insulin 4' + wet food
13.30 - 6 hours after insulin - BG 15.3
13.30 - wet food
18.30 - insulin 3' + wet food
20.30 - 2 h after insulin - BG 18.3
22.30 - 4 h after insulin - BG 15.5
00.00 - dry food 20 gram for the night

7.30 - insulin 4' + wet food
9.30 - 2 h after ins - BG 18.6
12.30 - 5 h after ins - BG 13.8
13.30 - wet food
16.00 - 8 h after ins - BG 21.4
18.00 - 10,5 h after ins - BG 23.8
18.00 - insulin 3' + wet food
20.30 - 2 h after ins - BG 19.6
22.30 - 4 h after ins - BG 17.8
00.00 - dry food 20g
7.00 - 13 h after ins - BG 26.1
7.00 - ins 4' + wet food

So it looks like the insulin is working - but not long enough? Or is it to early to tell? He has now been on it for 6,5 week - the last week increased one unit (from 3 to 4) in the morning, still 3 in the evening.

Goeril.:)
 
If you can, do please get your data onto a spreadsheet so we can see at a glance what's going on. I'm no expert but I'll tag a couple of members who are and they will help @Marje and Gracie and @Chris & China (GA)

Meanwhile, it would help us to see what's what if you could log your data using the following simple system - don't use times of day, just what bg was before insulin, and again what it was a certain number of hours after insulin, eg:

AMPS (morning pre shot): bg 20.5 - 3u given
+ 2 (2 hours after insulin):
+ 4 (4 hours after insulin):
+ 6
+8
+ 10

Or whatever intervals you can get a test, then

PMPS (evening pre shot): bg 22.2 - 3u given
-+ 2
+ 4
+6
+8
+ 10

Then the next day start again with
AMPS - bg xx - x units given

Does that make sense? These readings would form a complete curve (not something you need to do every day) and would make it easy for everyone to see clearly how the insulin is working. When you have a spreadsheet set up that will help further as the numbers fall into colour-coded categories so the experts at analysing data here will be able to get the picture very quickly.

Shout if you need further explanations!
 
Thanks Diana! Yes I have a hard time filling out the spreadsheet unfortunately. I'll try your recipe in the meanwhile. Very few tests the first day, more detailed yesterday. And right now - it was down to BG 9 (before food) - a bit too low compared with the other numbers or....? He basically gets food right after every insulin shot and about AMPS +6 and PMPS +6 - as well as treats after I've been testing BG (maybe not so smart, but...)
Hope this looks right.

PMPS: 3u given
+13: 25.1

AMPS: BG 25.1 - 4u given
+6: 15.3

PMPS: BG ? - 3u given
+2: 18.3
+4: 15.5

AMPS: BG ? - 4u given
+2: 18.6
+5: 13.8
+8: 21.4
+10,5: 23.8

PMPS: BG 23.8 - 3u given
+2: 19.6
+4: 17.8
+13: 26.1

AMPS: BG 26.1 - 4u given
+4: 13.4
+7: 9.0
 
Panters-mom said:
Hei Ann! Great! Then you might have some food recommendations. From Animail and Zooplus maybe? :)
Click to expand...

Yes! Diabetics and Cat Foods - The importance of finding the best and most suitable foods. A super topic.

We have an international wellknown and proper Cat Nutrition expert veterinarian named Vet Lisa Pierson who have done an extensive work on the topics and all her Cat Nutrition information and knowledge is on her www.catinfo.org . I suggest you read through it. She has also done our proper Diabetic Cats Food Chart I suggest you read through also and look for a food with high protein, medium fat and only 5-6 max 10 % carbohydates https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

I will look at Animali.no what they have. Besides bought food, you can either make your own fresh raw cat food, using Vet Lisa's recipy on her www.catinfo.org - especially good to make for us Nordics who have such fine natural wilderness meats as wild hare, moose, reindeer, deer, and farm animals as beef, chicken e.t.c
 
From GB 26 down to GB 9 in 7 hours(+7) and then up to GB 22.4 in 3 hours (+10)...
after GB-test 26' he ate 1,5 pk wet food (100g) Latz/Felix/Purina in gel,
after GBtest 9' he ate 1/2pk (50g) wet food (Latz/Felix/purina)
... is this kind of jump 'normal' at this stage??
 
Panters-mom said:
From GB 26 down to GB 9 in 7 hours(+7) and then up to GB 22.4 in 3 hours (+10)...
after GB-test 26' he ate 1,5 pk wet food (100g) Latz/Felix/Purina in gel,
after GBtest 9' he ate 1/2pk (50g) wet food (Latz/Felix/purina)
... is this kind of jump 'normal' at this stage??
Click to expand...


Not really. Because the 4 and 3 Units of insulin is rather high dosage and in spite of that Panter remain in the high 18's with his bg.

Do you know what the foods Latz, Felix and Purina have in % Carbohydrates?
 
Panters-mom said:
Great Ann! I will study!

And look at that! Thanks Deb! I've got it - I think...;)...
Click to expand...
Good job on getting your data entered on the spreadsheet!

Panter did get into the blues at mid-cycle. I think that is encouraging. Have to take the duration and mid-cycle tests into consideration also. Yes, still high pre-shots and likely bouncing but we'll work on getting that better.

"This is a marathon, not a sprint". It took time for the feline diabetes to develop. It will take time for Panter to get better.

We can help you calculate the carbs in the food, if you don't know.
 
Last edited:
Goeril

I thought it was the old Pussi cat on the Latz - and it is, Purina is the manufacturer and it is the old Pussi cat food renamed to Latz https://www.purina.se/katt/latz/kattmat/produkter/utbud/all

I 'hate' when they don't use the same name on foods worldover

In your first post you wrote he eats these regular patee foods:

- Purina Gold

- Purina Latz/Felix (in gele)

- Animonda

- Miamor

- Royal Canine diabetes dry (at night)

'He gets mostly wet food (regular patee, not sauce (Purina Gold, Miamor, Animonda, Latz/Felix(well this oneingelé)(He doesn't like the diabetes wet food) - and some dry - but only Royal Canin diabetes'


I wonder if any of them are on the UK Food Chart. I will see if I find them and their carb content in any of Food Charts.

In the UK Food Chart I find both Miamor and Animonda and they have a good low carb content so they are all fine, and some Felix is mentioned too https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml
 
Last edited:
Panters-mom said:
is this kind of jump 'normal' at this stage??
Click to expand...

Yes....It looks like a "bounce" to me. Bounces happen when 1. they drop too low, 2. they drop too quickly, 3. they drop into numbers their body isn't used to anymore (or any combination of all 3)

#3 is probably the most common early on. Our cats are so good at hiding that they're sick, so usually by the time we get the diagnosis, they've had diabetes for awhile. Their body has become used to living in those higher numbers, so when the insulin drops them down, the liver releases stored sugars and hormones to bring them back up again. They "bounce" high, quickly. It can take up to 6 cycles (3 days) for those sugars and hormones to clear out of the body.

Also, the type of insulin you're using isn't a really good one for cats. It tends to hit hard and early and wear off before the end of the cycle. Might see if your vet will prescribe a gentler insulin that works better in cats like Glargine (Lantus or Basaglar). They are human insulins that work well in cats and you should be able to get it anyplace you can buy human prescription meds

You're also giving a really high dose for so early in treatment! What dose were you started on?
 
Thanks again you all.

Do you think we should reduce the insulin? To 3+3? - together with the vet of course.

This is basically what is filling my closet right now. Some he likes better than others.

This Latz or earlier called Felix is a brand under Purina, it is a regular 'store food' - doesn't tell carbs though...
raw protein 11.5 %
raw fat 2.5 %
raw fiber 0.05 %
raw ash 2.5 %
moist 82.0 %
omega-6 fettsyrer 0.4 %

He loves this one. And he also eats

Purina Gourmet Gold paste (biff (this one), chicken, tuna and turkey):
protein 10.5%
fat 7%
raw fiber 0.05 %
raw ash 3.2%
moist 77,5

Miamor paste
rawprotein 11%
raw fat 6.5%
raw fiber 0.2 %
raw ash 2.0%
moist 78%

Almo nature pate grain free
rawprotein 9.5%
raw fat 6.0%
raw fiber 0.4 %
raw ash 2.0%
moist 81%

Animonda pate
rawprotein 12 %
raw fat 4.4%
raw fiber 0.3 %
raw ash 1.8%
moist 81%

Animonda pate - diabetes (kind of like this one - not really)
rawprotein 11 %
raw fat 5.2%
raw fiber 0.3 %
raw ash 1.6%
moist 80.5%

Sheba filet in saus
rawprotein 7.7 %
raw fat 4.8%
raw fiber 0.3 %
raw ash 1.7%
moist 85%

Proplan vet diets in sauce - diabetes (this one also)
rawprotein 13 %
raw fat 5.5%
raw fiber 0.8 %
raw ash 2.4%
moist 77%
Stivelse (Startch? Carb?) 0.5 %
taurin 1200.0 mg/kg
total sugar 0.5 %

Yarrah pate grain free
rawprotein 10 %
raw fat 6%
raw fiber 0.5 %
raw ash 2%
moist 80%
carbs 2%
 
Thank you Goeril

Now we have scrunitized his food and all the wets seem to be low carb. So that's all good. And not the cause then for his high BGs.

If you are interested in yet another low carb wet food I saw your Norwegian Animail.no also have the Swedish made Mjau/Bozita. They are the same product with Mjau being the Swedish name and Bozita the international name.
 
Fantastic! Thanks Ann! Alright I look into that one too. I just saw another new one I ordered from Zooplus. Its called
Catessy fine paté:
protein 9.5%
fat: 5%
ash 2%
fiber: 0.3%
moist:83%

But we have not tasted it yet! :-)
 
Panters-mom said:
Thanks Sarah! This sounds about right. "Cats seem instead to experience a 1-2 hour onset, a peak action of 4-6 hours, and a total duration of 8-12 hours maximum, according to user surveys on Felinediabetes.com"
Click to expand...
If that information is correct, I'd say it's closer to Caninsulin/Vetsulin than NPH insulins.
Goeril, first i wanted to say you have been doing a fantastic job. We have been giving you a lot of information. It takes time to absorb all that we are saying and understand it well.

The important part about this insulin is that it is what we call an "in-and-out" insulin, generally not lasting into the next 12 hour cycle. Not a "depot" type insulin like Lantus(glargine) or Levimir(detemir). If we proceed along those lines, then it doesn't really matter if its more like Caninsulin/Vetsulin or NPH or Prozinc. Basically those in-and-out insulins have the same general guidelines for use. I know some of those guidelines, not all but some.

Test, feed, wait a set number of minutes before feeding, test again, shoot can be more important if this insulin is more like NPH insulin. If NPH type, then it drops the BG (blood glucose) levels like a rock thrown into a deep fjord earlier in the cycle, and it's more important to balance when food is eaten with when the insulin is given. Give more time to let the food be digested before the onset of the insulin. With NPH type insulins. 45 minutes to an hour between Pre-shot test and insulin shot becomes more important. I've seen cats go from high 400's (> 22 mmol) to <100 (<5.5 mmol) at nadir with the NPH insulins. That is going to cause severe bouncing and may need more frequent monitoring earlier in the cycle to slow the bounce, give a little bit of food and head off hypoglycemia.

Reading through the comments, these are some things that caught my eye and I wanted to give my feedback.

1. Testing before every pre-shot needs to be done. AMPS in the morning and PMPS in the evening. To keep your cat safe, you need to know that the BG (blood glucose) is before every insulin shot. Will you be able to do that?

2. The reason for taking away the food for 2 hours before the Pre-shot test is so that test is not influenced by food. You only need to have a 2 hour window before the AMPS and PMPS tests without food to get a more realistic BG (blood glucose) number. To determine if the BG is high enough to give insulin int he first place.

Other testing times, we expect some food to have been eaten sometime in the 12 hour cycle.

The 6 hour time that Juls mentioned is no food after the mid-point of the cycle. That is because the insulin is beginning to wear off and food after +6 will simply cause the BG's to rise faster. Not enough insulin left to balance the food intake. (Exceptions of course, especially if low numbers. Every guideline has nuances.)

3. The Royal Canin Diabetic Veterinary food is around 27-32% carbs (depends on what cat food calculator I used). Too high in carbs for a diabetic cat. Please DO NOT change the food yet. Would like you to start getting a preshot test before every insulin dose first.

4. Would you please make notes in the Remarks column to record the food you are feeding. Note which foods are given in each 12 hour cycle. This is easy to do if you put the notation AM and then list the foods and PM and list the foods. That helps to interpret the numbers and see some of the patterns on why the BG (blood glucose) test numbers are varying when food is changed.

5. Please confirm the Royal Canin dry cat food looks like this picture below.

royal canin diatetic dry.jpg

6. Treats can be any type of plain meat. Many cat food treats you buy at the store are going to have ingredients like grains, potatoes, peas, beans, tapioca which are all sources of carbohydrates.

7. Use those pure meat treats at test time. We call them "bribes", to get your cat to come at testing time. Conditional behaviour training works.

8. We have videos on using an insulin syringe with an insulin pen. Let me know if you want a link to those videos.

9. Is that Insulatard insulin a U40 strength or a U100 strength insulin? Should say on the pen you are using.

Goeril, would you please let us know how good your understanding is of the English written language. Do you use google translate to read what we have written to you? I try to write more clearly. Put any abbreviations in parentheses when needed. Trying to help people where English is not their primary language however I can. Feline diabetes is difficult enough to treat, without added language misunderstandings. If there is ever something you do not understand, please ask us about it.

(I'm helping someone who speaks Spanish right now. He's in Argentina and he said he can understand written English a bit better than he speaks English. All our communication has been in English and he is able to respond fairly quickly. Sometimes, I have to clarify some points, or word my responses differently.)

Take your time. Reread all we have written to you. It's a lot. Let us know what questions you have.
Most importantly of all, take good care of yourself. Do whatever you need to do to relax and re-energize yourself. Pamper and treat yourself well, so you will be able to take good car of Panter. I've always liked a small piece of chocolate as a treat for me. :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 

Attachments

  • royal canin diatetic dry.jpg
    royal canin diatetic dry.jpg
    18.8 KB · Views: 328
Deb et al

Insulatard is a 100 IE/ml NPH human isophane insulin made by the Nordic company Novo Nordisk, similar to Humulin NPH
The Swedish Pharmacy products in Swedish https://www.fass.se/LIF/product;jse...dA!-300631965?userType=2&nplId=20021007000385

Simba was first prescribed that by our Animal Hospital and it's a good learner insulin but before a year had ended Simba was prescribed the Lantus instead which we have stayed on.
 
I'm impressed. Thanks a lot for the time you're putting into this!
English is okay. I will ask if I'm stuck. First I have to ask - and I have an appointment with my vet on Monday - should I ask to change insulin to Lantus? It's sounds complicated with this "in-and-out" insulin. I feel I have to share a bit of life situation, we - my husband and I - are traveling quit a bit in our work - our kind neighbour is helping out with Panter when we're both gone - she have already done a small week with insulin injections (not BG test) - and it went great. But I feel strongly that if it turns very complicated, she might back out. Even my husband - I'm not sure if he can handle constant BGtest...I work from home so I'll do it, but that wouldn't be enough... I can see we have a big problem here.

But the road is built as we go - and to sum up so far: I will take the BGtest 45 min to 1 hour before every insulin shot. Food before or after the shot? - after would be easiest as that would be his bribe kind of... but if best before I can do that. I take away the food 2 hours before BGtest. Or more ? - it's here the BG is getting high. I will put his feeds in the remarkline. RC dry food in picture is correct. I can give meat treats as bribe for BG. Insulin shots is okay, it's easy. As Ann added, Insulatard 100u. Wet food in my cupboard is okay. Eat chocolate!:) Have I forgotten something? Thanks again!
 
You can always ask your vet if you can switch to Lantus. Maybe it will be your vet who is inexperienced in using Lantus, but it has been used for cats for 13 years since 2007. The Lantus start dose should not be more than 1 Unit BID twice a day. Lantus is a pH-sour depot insulin, it depots under the skin and gets released little by little.

It works like this.
The skin has a pH on 7-7,5 pH.
Lantus has a very sour pH on 4 pH.
When injected under the skin this sourness and PH difference makes the Lantus insulin form a little depot pool, and from that depot pool is released out in the body little by little.
 
Every cat is different to how they respond. Lantus can be easier and more predictable. With all insulin you always have the risk of hypos, so too with a too high dose of Lantus.
I however never changed back to any other insulin after we switched to Lantus.
 
I was wondering - when you see these numbers on Panters Spreadsheet - do you think it's safer to go back to 3+3u? While deciding on an evt. change of insulin.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top