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Harleysmom25

Member Since 2012
Hello,

I have an 8yo "baby" named harley...he was diagnosed with diabetes at the end of May, and needless to say this has been a very trying experience. We started with 1unit, 2 weeks later had to go to 2units, and now we are at 3 units. He dropped alot of weight he is a russian blue and is normally a large cat by nature, but had weighed about 20 pounds and now weighs approx. 15...he is now limping on his back leg some days seem worse than others...I am just very overwhelmed and sad I don't know what to do...he is not acting hurt or sick, but he lays around alot, is still drinking alot and he pees like a racehorse...the cost of litter is killing me more than the meds...I also worry about other health issues...I seen on here that someone had a cat go OTJ, but then died a year later...was this due to the diabetes or old age..I hate to bring it up at all I would just like to prepare myself for anything else tht may come along

Thank you,

Cherie (Harley's mom)
 
just trying to figure out all I can and I meant that they said the cat went OTJ, but then died of heart failure...again hate to bring it up as I know it is heartbreaking, just want to learn all I can about things that can happen and get as much advise as I can...we are still in the beginning stages and know nothing about home checking glucose levels or anything the vet has been doing it...they started with the curve, but he stresses out VERY badly at the vet so the last time he just went in and they took blood. Has anyone found a place to buy prozinc for less than $90 a vial? I do feed my cat dry food as I really cannot afford cans of wet food and that is what him and my other cat have eaten their whole lives..they are on a RX high fiber food...are their any OTC foods that are high fiber that are less than $51 for a 17lb bag?
 
Welcome Harley's Mom. It is completely overwhelming at first, but diabetes is a disease easily treated at home and there are ways to save money.

The best one is to test at home, just like you would do for a 2 legged child. You can get a ReliOn meter from Walmart with strips for under $30. Then you eliminate trips to the vets for testing. Your results are more likely to be accurate as cats stress at the vet and stress raises glucose levels. We have taught hundreds of people how to test; we'd love to teach you.

In the long run, feeding wet is cheaper because you use less insulin. When we switched Oliver from dry to wet, he dropped 100 points overnight. Voila - less insulin! Wet low carb is best for all cats - read why here: www.catinfo.org. You can buy Friskies or Sophisticat and it won't break the bank.

Oliver was a kitty who went OTJ and died a year later of heart disease. In that year he got down to a healthy weight, his coat was shiny and soft. Yes, eventually he died, but he was 16. If I hadn't treated his diabetes, I would have missed a great year with him. Many of the cats here develop diabetes late in life and then die of other diseases. But many live on to be old - and healthy.

Tell us more about Harley. symptoms? Did he have a fructosamine test at the vet or just a blood test? What was his blood glucose level?

It might be possible to start a good diet and test and see what his levels are.

Let us know how we can help.
 
Thank you Sue, I appreciate the info completely, and sorry I asked I am sorry for your loss, I just want to know all I can about the disease and other issues it can cause...other than my daughter Harley and Patience are my babies...I cried so hard when I found out thinking I did something wrong...as soon as I can get a pic or 2 off my ipod I will definately post a pic of him..he is beautiful even though yes his coat is kind of dull an i've noticed dandruff which he never had..he is still not grooming much...what prompted the visit to the vet...he had looked a little off for a couple weeks, but thought it might have just been a virus or something..one night my daughter said he went to the bathroom and his pee was foamy...I made an appointment the next day thinking it could be kidney involved...we dropped him off as they wanted to run tests...his original level was 435, but he had no keotones, and kidney and liver function have been great on every test. They put him on 1 unit twice a day and we went back in 2 weeks for them to do the curve...he was extremely stressed they only got 3 of the blood draws done before they had to call me due to his stress level..he was then in he mid 3's so they moved him up to 2 units twice a day...we went back 2 weeks later right before we had to leave to go out of town, and they just drew blood and sent him home and his levels were still in the 3's although lower than the last one, sorry don't remember the exact #'s right now..he is set to go back next week to get one more blood draw...as he is now on 3 units twice a day...I still just don't see any improvement in his thirst level or pee output, and noticed Sunday when we returned that he was limping....he seemed fine when we first got home didn't notice it until an hour or so later so not sure if he twisted it or pulled it since he was so excited that we were home...the girl I had watching her works with animals and is very familiar with insulin theapy and stated that he had been fine all week including that morning, no limp. She even stated that he would run up to the door when she came in and then went right to his bowl ate took his shot like a big boy and was happy..I just worry so much as he used to be so playful and vocal (known in russian blues) just a couple months ago. Any help on where to find Prozinc cheaper would be greatly appreciated as well. Are pulled muscles common? Thank you for the information
 
Don't be sorry about mentioning Oliver. It's because of him that I am still involved in this wonderful community.

The limping might be neuropathy.
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Neuropathy. The B12 can be helpful as will getting his numbers lower.

The increase in insulin can be a problem for a number of reasons. One, doses based on tests from a stress filled day at the vet can be higher than needed. Two, sometimes too much insulin can cause higher numbers:
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound

And three, it is very likely that the dry food is causing the higher numbers.

If he were mine, I would start hometesting tonight. Get a test before each shot to make sure the amount you plan to give is safe and midcycle to see how the insulin is working. Once you get the testing down, reduce the insulin and start wet low carb food.

PS $90 is very reasonable for ProZinc.
 
glad to know that is resonable price! I unfotunately can't afford a testing kit at all I just had to pay another $114 for his insulin and syringes that was a little unexpected I have a care credit account, but is pretty full due to the vet visits...I will try to get one tomorrow, see what i have on my actual human HSA...lol...I really appreciate the information and will let you know as soon as I find out..I will also get him some wet food tomorrow and see how he feels after having that....my only other issue is my other cat...I know food changes can upset their systems...wet food for 2 cats might get a little nuts as Harley thinks he is going to starve to death if food is not in his bowl for 5 seconds...the doctor said it was ok to free feed...is that bad advise?...are cat treats bad? they said they were ok in moderation...
 
Don't start the wet food until you are testing! It can really reduce the numbers. You can get a free testing kit from us - see the picture on the top of this page.

If you read that catinfo page, the vet suggests how to transition slowly. There are low carb treats - my cats have loved PureBites and Bonito Flakes.

Yes, free feeding wet is fine. I use an automatic feeder and set it to go off when I want him to eat. Other people freeze the wet and let the cat eat as it thaws. (Did not work with Oliver. He just dragged it all over the house as it melted.)
 
Don't start the wet food until you are testing! It can really reduce the numbers. You can get a free testing kit from us - see the picture on the top of this page.

If you read that catinfo page, the vet suggests how to transition slowly. There are low carb treats - my cats have loved PureBites and Bonito Flakes.

Yes, free feeding wet is fine. I use an automatic feeder and set it to go off when I want him to eat. Other people freeze the wet and let the cat eat as it thaws. (Did not work with Oliver. He just dragged it all over the house as it melted.)
 
Don't start the wet food until you are testing! It can really reduce the numbers. You can get a free testing kit from us - see the picture on the top of this page.

If you read that catinfo page, the vet suggests how to transition slowly. There are low carb treats - my cats have loved PureBites and Bonito Flakes.

Yes, free feeding wet is fine. I use an automatic feeder and set it to go off when I want him to eat. Other people freeze the wet and let the cat eat as it thaws. (Did not work with Oliver. He just dragged it all over the house as it melted.)
 
The limping might be neuropathy.
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Neuropathy. The B12 can be helpful as will getting his numbers lower.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to say that B12 can do miracles. My sugar kitty could barely walk before I started posting on this forum: his numbers were all over the place and he was suffering from neuropathy. I started feeding him wet food and giving him B12 and it really did the trick. He used to drag himself pathetically on the floor using only his front paws, and now he's running up and down the stars without a problem.

Good luck with everything. This community is amazing: I'm sure you will find all the help and support you will need. I can see Sue is already doing a great job.
 
Hey!

To keep it short and sweet, there are 3 key points to the management of FD.

1. Insulin - a proper cat-effective insulin (Lantus, Levemir, PZI) and a proper dosing protocol (Tight Regulation, Start Low Go Slow, etc.)
2. Low carb diet - a low carb, canned diet. Price varies depending on brand/quality, you can feed Friskies or Special Kitty for less than $1 a day (per cat). There are tons of food charts out there that show low carb brands/flavors (<7% calories from carbs). It costs me roughly $2.50-$3 a day to feed 2 cats a decent quality low carb canned. That's $75-$90 a month. About a single day's worth of wages.
3. Home testing - this is necessary to insure your cat is safe (not hypo/hyperglycemic) and to make insulin dose adjustments as necessary. Just like a human diabetic would poke their finger multiple times a day, we poke our cats.

Neither one is more important than the other, however, the are all of extremely high importance, as they are all directly related. All three need to be done in order to treat diabetes safely and effectively.

Insulin + low carb diet, but no home testing = High danger of a crisis situation like hypoglycemia, ketones, etc. because you will never know how your cat's body is reacting to the insulin or whether the dose is too high, too low, and so on. Many cats have died from this.

Insulin + home testing, but high carb diet = Extremely difficult regulation because you would need to inject massive amounts of insulin to counteract all the carbs kitty is eating. This means kitty could be in high numbers (hyperglycemia) for a very long time and long term that causes organ damage and maybe ketones (deadly). And one day your kitty might not decide to eat those carbs keeping them safe from the massive dose of insulin and go hypoglycemic. This, again, is potentially deadly.

Low carb + home testing, but no insulin = low carb canned can only do so much. Organ damage, weight loss, polydipsia/polyuria, neuropathy... steady decline until organ failure, ketoacidosis, etc. and once more, this could be deadly.

See how the relation works and why it is very important to do all 3?
 
thank you both for the advise...can I get b-12 over the counter for this? is it a fluid version or crushed up pills? how do you give it to your cat...and i'm going to start home testing asap...going this weekend to cvs to get a monitor heard they are on sale
 
Re: New member-first home test today

ok did my first home test today..let me tell you that is fun...lol...cat doesn't want to cooperate...gave insulin about 10am this morning is now 7:15pm he was at 332...he is currently on 3 units twice per day...should i test him again after i give him his insulin? how long after if i should...he is not peeing as much the last few days, but that is quite high I think...thank you!
 
Yes, test before shooting. You don't want to shoot under 200. 3 units is a lot of insulin. Are you planning to start wet low carb food? If so, I would reduce the insulin.
 
i seen where you want to test an hour before you give the insulin so it is no almost 8pm getting ready to give shot...332 is still high correct? aren't they supposed to be between 150-200?....I was going to start the wet food this week see what that does as well...as far as the testing what part of the ear is the best..I thought I saw a link on here somewhere that taught you how to test, but I don't see it I must just be missing it... confused_cat
 
A regulated cat on insulin is in the mid 200s at preshot. 332 is a mid range number. I would consider 400-500 to be high. I would be a little nervous shooting 3 units into a 300.

When you start wet low carb food, if I were you, I would restart at one unit until you see how his numbers look.

We have a saying that it is better to be high for a day than low for a minute.
 
Great Sue, ty again...not sure what I would do without you on here...I just gave him his insulin a little while ago...I am also going to pick up his dry food Monday night before bed and try the wet food...what are the names again of the different kinds of low carb?
 
No one showed you the product. If you hunt for it elsewhere, make sure it is methylcobalmin. Not all b12
are the same.

Vitacost Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 5000 mcg - 60 Capsules
http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-b-12-methylcobalamin-5000-mcg-60-capsules

A commonly given dose here is 3 mg -5 mg.
B vitamins are water soluble and any excess is excreted in the urine.


the bottle above is 5000mcg which is the same as 5 mg. You can empty the whole capsule and mix in with the canned food or use part of it if you prefer the 3 mg dose.
 
Re: New member-giving insulin and freak out

ty both of you for the information...now on to the next...I am having a really hard time getting blood from Harley's ear..he isn't neccessarily not cooperating until he gets mad that he has to sit still for so long, but i warm his ear with the rice sock, and prick it and then don't get that much blood to test...is there a good place on the ear to get him at?

Also last night and this morning I have him his insulin..last night I gave him his 3units and right after I gave it to him he started freaking out like his own shadow was chasing him...he tried to bite my daughter when she picked him up kind of like when he plays, but he was really freaking out..this morning i cut him down to 2 and 1/2 units and he tried to jerk away from me when i gave him the shot he has never done that before, and again..he was acting all weirded out...is this a sign of being too low? I tried testing but am now out of strips as i'm new and as I said has been difficult getting the process down..going to get more strips tonight when i get off work...any help is much appreciated!
 
Sometimes cats react differently to new things, until it becomes routine he might not like it or be scared by it.

What gauge is your lancets? If you are using the ones that came with the meter they might be too small- a 30 or 31 gauge. You need something like 26 or 28 at the beginning as the capillaries are not into that area of the ear yet. So warm them up even longer to get the blood really flowing in the area before you poke. And rub the ears even when you are NOT going to poke so he doesn't associate the attention with just one thing. It does take awhile for the capillaries to spread into the area. There are very few cats who aren't upset by this 'new-fangled' thing we do at the first.

Two- you DON"T have to use the pen that came with the kit. Sneakers never liked that click near her head and she would flinch. I free-hand the lancet and we do fine- usually at a 45 degree angle rather than 90.

The test strips- that is the kicker. The meter is the cheapest thing to buy because you only do that once. Once you have it they figure you would care to change it. Did you get the Accu-viva one? You can get strips on-line for cheaper than you can at the store. Check Amazon, e-bay, craigslist. just be careful on the expiration dates.

Good luck in this. Ask all the questions you want.

And my PZI costed $125 to order from my vet. And I know they tacked on $15 for themselves, too.
 
HM,

Thank you1...your kitty kindof looks like Harley...i'm trying to get a pic to upload on here...ty for info..the meter i got is the Walgreens brand True2go..and the strips are expensive..is it better to get him on the flat part of the ear or where it folds? i'm just not sure if when i gave him his shot if I hit a nerve or something either as he was really weirded out both last night and today with his insulin...sorry about the $125...I pay $89 right now at my vet...
 
Hmm... the meter you got is not recommended for use in cats because it reads lower than it should. You may want to consider getting another. Walmart's ReliOn Confirm and ReliOn Micro are accurate and cheap.
 
You're welcome! Right now the consensus is avoid anything with "Tru" or "True" in the name, and also avoid the Freestyle Lite with the butterfly strips. They are known to read lower than they should, causing people to believe their cats are doing far better than they actually are. Someone mentioned that this might have changed lately, but with old stock sitting on shelves and whatnot, I wouldn't risk it.

I think there was a small complaint about the Ultima... I think it uses a bigger blood sample than the other 2 do? You may want to call a local Walmart and see what they have.
 
ok ? about the b-12 it is hard for me to keep the other cat out of the bowl...this says it is water soluable...do I put it in the water bowl, will it be harmful to my other cat? i'm reading I just have so many #'s going thru my head with food, bg#'s i'm actually spinning...lol...hate to be a pain, but a step by step would be helpful in laymans terms...I hate being so needy he just seems to be weirded out and walking funny back arched...like on his tip toes in the back just making me worry..and he doesn't walk for long periods..he will walk then lay down...other than it seems that his own shadow scares him and walking funny he actually seems ok..not peeing as much not taking a straw to the water bowl...lol
 
That is nueropathy- it makes them tired and worn out.

Water soluble is how it gets delivered in the body- I think. We have fat soluble and water soluble vitamins and minerals and they need either the water or fat to get around the body. That is how it gets peed out if there is too much for the body. If it was fat soluble it probably would be stored in the fat cells and doesn't get out of the system. If the other cat gets some it won't hurt anything.

For the meters- sometimes they keep them behind the pharmacy counter- same with the strips. In some areas they have a tendency to wander off unpaid so most are either in the plastic boxes that need to be unlocked or behind the desk. Both the Micro and Confirm us the smallest possible blood sample, Ultima needs 2x more. And the strips are more expensive.

As for the ear- I can't get into my Word at work or my computer freezes, but there is a picture of where you test here http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m267 ... etspot.jpg
the upper part of the ear just below the rounded edge and above the fold.
 
Walmart just came out with a new meter Relion Prime, the article I read said that a pack of 50 strips was only $9.00. That's the cheapest test strips I've heard of.
 
Thank you all for all your responses...I got the relion optima i think and it worked wonders last night...the lancet gun didn't work so well so used the one that came with the true2go meter I bought...I just want to say that I am so grateful for everyones help...i have to wait till friday to get the b-12 that is payday, but Harley even though he is still limping some and that with the neuropothy stuff is soo much better...i got him some canned food, he loves it!, and last night when i tested him again on a 2.5 unit dose that morning he was at 262 at 9pm last night and that is after almost 11 hours since his last dose..that is the lowest he has been...I hope for an even better result this evening!...thank you all for everything and believe me I will still have questions....actually the next one is

How do you test for the keotones?? I have the strips, do you just wipe it on the litter where he went to the bathroom? what is the best and easiest way to do this..he has been keotone free on every vet visit, but definately want to keep it that way

Thanks!
 
Hey! Welcome to the Vampire Club!

It's time to set up a spreadsheet so you can keep track of your numbers and we can see your history when you need help. Here are the directions:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

It's a little tricky so if you need help, just ask.

Oliver would not pee if we were looking so the only way we were able to get a ketone test was to start with a clean litter box and fill it with aquarium gravel. We would leave him in a room with it, and since he couldn't stand the clean box, he'd go. Others are luckier; some people can stick the strip in the urine stream; others stick a ladle under the cat. You might also try burying some saran wrap in the litter in the spot where he usually goes.
 
1 ) ketones.

you will dip those in urine. ohmygod_smile
how to get the urine? that can be tricky.
I used to place a plastic bag ( schwan's - they probably hate me) over my cat box so that she could feel the litter under it
but it was a barrier. And I would wake up in the morning and find a puddle on the bag.
She always uses the litter box in the middle of the night. She has claws but she never tore the bag.
You can use a trash bag too it's just harder to see and you might spill it. Just dip the stick in a puddle, doesn't matter how big the puddle is.
We have some talented people here who manage to go stick the little paper under their cat while it's peeing. :lol:

2) make a note to yourself on the b12 capsules.
make sure it is methylcobalmin

3) can you work on getting a spreadsheet.
Here are the instructions.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207
If you have troubles, I would start a new post and title it . "need help with spreadsheet"

I'm having trouble following your bg readings.
But it sounds like you are just starting out and shooting 2.5 units.
I sure would like to see the numbers to know how your kitty is responding.
If you start seeing less than 150, we really need to see your numbers so you don't get too low right away,
even if you are posting them like this.
amps ____
+2 ____
+4 _____
+6 ____
and so on.
 
yep just really started the home testing and it has been an adventure...lol..not that Harely really minds it other than if it doesn't go as planned he hates sitting still that long if he thinks he has to..haha...just was not good at it and then the monitor I bought was told was bad so got the Relion last night...the first night i did it was Sunday I believe and it was like 336 or something, but last night after almost 10-11 hours since his last inj he was at 262...I didn't get a chance to do it this AM i'm in the office this week, normally at home and didn't have enough time...but he was wonderful this morning...the doctor had me giving him 3 units twice a day, but the last couple time he was acting really weird so i cut it back to the 2.5 yesterday morning and he seems sooo much better and as like I said his BG was down...I started him on wet food last night and he seems to love it..imagine that a cat that used to weigh 21lbs love food hahaha...I am just so grateful for everyones help I couldn't get thru this with out all of your help! I will set the spreadsheet up tonight or tomorrow i'm not getting home till 9pm hectic work week...but I am keeping him on schedule and seems to be working :-D and yes I have a note about the B-12..lol first thing I wrote down to take to the store this weekend!
 
ok and not to be dense, but what is the +2, +4, +6..when I put his blood in it just gives me the 1#...lol...i'm so dumb to this stuff :cry:
 
Here is a bunch of info and links all on one page for Prozinc. I think I even saw something about sources and prices.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32799

I hadn't realized you were on a different insulin so your typical duration is a little different.
the +1, +2, etc..... on the spreadsheet is each hour after you shoot the insulin up to +11 .
You have the AMPS and the PMPS - that's am pre shot and pm preshot
then +1, 2, and so on represent each hour.
Different insulins have their peak performance time which is called the nadir.
It says your nadir could move around in the first 45 days so it will take you a while to figure out when your insulin
is at it's peak. ( that will be your lowest number in the 12 hr cycle)

Here is a description for your insulin.

Onset/Nadir/Duration Overview

Onset, when the insulin starts taking effect, is typically around 2 hours after injection. The numbers will continue to rise until the point of onset, when they start to go down again.

Nadir, when the insulin is at its peak and BG values are lowest, is generally between 5 and 7 hours after injection. With ProZinc, the nadir can move around in the first 45 days of usage, as their body adjusts to the insulin.

Duration, the time until the insulin loses most of its effectiveness and BG values start to rise again, is often between 8 and 10 hours after injection. Read more about Duration on the Pet Diabetes Wiki.

Overlap is when one shot is starting to have an effect (Onset) around the same time the previous shot is wearing off (Duration). This prevents the numbers from rising as much between shots, and thus can be an aid in keeping BG values in a more steady range. For some cats, it may be helpful to use an alternate shooting strategy such as TID to achieve overlap between shots. Often this will assist in improving duration and will allow a return to BID with better results. Read more about Overlap on the Pet Diabetes Wiki.

Idexx PZI Vet Typical Onset, Nadir, and Duration

Onset: 1-4 hours following injection
Nadir: 4-7 hours following injection (within 9 hours for 80%)
Duration: 9-10 hours following injection
Click to expand...

It's all on that link at the top of this post.

Keep asking questions. It will get clearer soon. You will be putting the glucose number in your spreadsheet
in the slot for the hour when you test.
 
ok so I should test hour before shot, then test every hour after or every couple hours after? or just tiwce a day an hour before each shot...lol...oh my this cat is lucky I love him so much hahahaha
 
When able and IF able...
most test at least before each shot and try to get something in the middle, the nadir.
If you nadir is going to move around on you , you might be wanting to do a +5, 5 hrs after shot, one day.
a +6, another day. Move it around.

This is good introductory work and you start seeing how and when the insulin is doing it's work.
Then after a few weeks, you generally want to do a curve when you can be home all day and actually
try to test every hour or every 2 hours or even every 3 hours.

This is what the vet wants to do, a curve and charge you money. Your cat is stressed being there all day.
The numbers aren't accurate if your cat is all stressed out.
You can do it yourself.
Kitty gets lots of treats that day and you see a full cycle of how the insulin is working and you can share the info with your vet.

If your numbers happen to be dropping quickly, you want to get to the curve sooner so you know if you need to adjust the dose. The more experienced people on the board will help advise you with dosing and changes.

Again, ask.
There is also a insulin support group for your insulin that you can post there to ask specific questions about the insulin
and anything about it.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=5
 
OK not necessarily a 911, but i'm scared....last night I took Harley's BG and it was 296...this morning when I took it not even 10hrs later it was 399...but I know they will vary with changing the food and that...his eyes are dialted...even in bright light...they do not shrink to block the light...HELP
 
he is still acting very weird...is keotasosis or however it is spelled...cat's eyes pupils always shrink in bright light..but his pupils are the size of his irises even in bright light....
 
http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm


Signs of Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA)
Drinking excessive amounts of water OR no water
Excessive urination
Diminished activity
Not eating for over 12 hours
Vomiting
Lethargy and depression
Weakness
Breathing very fast
Dehydration
Ketone odor on breath (smells like nail-polish remover or fruit)


I do not have any experience with this. The eye dilation is NOT listed in these symptoms.
I hope someone else shows up to help with this. I'm looking it up.
 
You need to take your kitty to an ER hospital immediately. This can be an indication of high blood pressure and/or kidney disease - can lead to blindness as well as quick death. I also responded to your 911 post & sent you a private message.

Praying for you & your kitty,
Sophie
 
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