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DavidJ

DavidJ

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Hello - I am sooo glad to have found you all!

Charly and I have a had a terrible time over the last month or two leading up to a near death experience last week. Its been horribly traumatic.

Charly started looking a little uncomfortable and lethargic in late october. I assumed a bug of some sort to start with and she seemed better after a few days but it turned into a pattern of ups and downs. A bit lethargic less interested in her food one day next day bright as a button.
But it became apparent she was losing weight despite eating reasonably well so we took into the vets.

The did bloods and found elevated liver and pancreas markers. Put on her fluids. Sent her home 48 hours afterwards, suggesting possible pancreatitits or triadits.

Over the next few weeks the same pattern continued. Lethargic. Eating less than usual. Bright and vocal at times. She went off lots of her usual foods and it was difficult to find foods she would eat. She continued losing weight and was getting to look worryingly skinny. She had gone from 2.4 kg to about 1.8.

So we took her back to the vet. This is when things got really scary.

The vet decided she had lymphoma or ibd and gave her a short acting steroid shot.

When we got home she started vomiting and collapsed and looked for all the world like she was about to die. Im still amazed she survived, but somehow she pulled herself back from the brink and was trying again to eat but she simply couldn't.

Back to vets who were very scepticial that there was anything to be done and I had to advocate hard for her to be put on fluids rather than euthanised. But they agreed to give her a chance. And did more tests.....and diagonsed diabetes.

They kept her in on fluids and started prozinc insulin for a few days.

Shes back home now.

Ravenously hungry but alive. I have no idea what the future holds for her but at the moment I am just grateful she is still alive and that we have some hope. I thought we had lost her this time last week.
 
DavidJ said:
Hello - I am sooo glad to have found you all!

Charly and I have a had a terrible time over the last month or two leading up to a near death experience last week. Its been horribly traumatic.

Charly started looking a little uncomfortable and lethargic in late october. I assumed a bug of some sort to start with and she seemed better after a few days but it turned into a pattern of ups and downs. A bit lethargic less interested in her food one day next day bright as a button.
But it became apparent she was losing weight despite eating reasonably well so we took into the vets.

The did bloods and found elevated liver and pancreas markers. Put on her fluids. Sent her home 48 hours afterwards, suggesting possible pancreatitits or triadits.

Over the next few weeks the same pattern continued. Lethargic. Eating less than usual. Bright and vocal at times. She went off lots of her usual foods and it was difficult to find foods she would eat. She continued losing weight and was getting to look worryingly skinny. She had gone from 2.4 kg to about 1.8.

So we took her back to the vet. This is when things got really scary.

The vet decided she had lymphoma or ibd and gave her a short acting steroid shot.

When we got home she started vomiting and collapsed and looked for all the world like she was about to die. Im still amazed she survived, but somehow she pulled herself back from the brink and was trying again to eat but she simply couldn't.

Back to vets who were very scepticial that there was anything to be done and I had to advocate hard for her to be put on fluids rather than euthanised. But they agreed to give her a chance. And did more tests.....and diagonsed diabetes.

They kept her in on fluids and started prozinc insulin for a few days.


Shes back home now.

Ravenously hungry but alive. I have no idea what the future holds for her but at the moment I am just grateful she is still alive and that we have some hope. I thought we had lost her this time last week.
Click to expand...
 

Welcome to FDF, I am sorry you have gone thru so much with Charly, but we are here for you. Several points, make sure your Vet is familiar with Feline Diabetes, is not the same as dog Diabetes, he did prescribed a very good insulin, you do not mention the dose he put her on, it is important to home test especially before dosing you do not want Charly to have low numbers before shooting, my Corky is on ProZinc as well, you do not mention what country you are in, You are in the right place we are here to help you in all your concerns we have amazing knowledgable members with years of experience to guide you in dosing and any concern you may have no matter how small. you can help us help you by creating your signature and spreadsheet, this will let us to get to know Charly better, links below. A very important point is that diabetic cats need to consume a diet of wet can foods between 0-10%, if you are feeding kibbles, which most of us have done in the past, our cats love the crunch, these foods contain a very high content between 25-35% carbs, there's a link below of a Drs Food list with many brands to choose from, the third column contains the % of carbs, if you are not in the US we can find the appropriate list for you, ProZinc is a 12 hour dosing insulin it is important to home test especially before each dose, you do not want to shoot on a low BG , there are many Human monitors you can purchase that are inexpensive, most of us use the ReliOn Premier human monitor and strips, do not dose on an empty stomach either, and Charly, beside the 2 main meals before dosing should have at lease 2-3 small snacks in between. You should have what we call a HYPO KIT this contains some medium carb foods between, 11-15% and some High Carbs between 16.24% carbs I do not want to overwhelm with you so much more for now, read all the sticky note in the Main Forum there's a lot of valuable information; we are here for you, if you need help on the spreadsheet or signature post us:bighug::cat::cat: PS: to get an idea what the SS looks like and the feeding schedules(scrolling to right) you can click on Corky's spreadsheet in blue below
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/
FOOD CHART CHECK CARBS/ FF
Cat Food Nutrition Calculator | Elizabeth C Scheyder
 
thank you so much.

Charly is on 0.5 IU twice a day to start with. Started last Saturday.

I'm in the UK. Feeding her Katkin https://www.katkin.com/high-protein-cat-food

It varies a little from flavour to flavour but this is typical composition:

Analytical constituents (%):

  • Protein 18.8%

  • Fat content 6.2%

  • Crude ash 2.2%

  • Crude fibre 0.1%

  • Moisture 72.8%
Does that look ok?

I've got a glucose meter on order but until then I guess I have no option but to continue dosing without testing.

I have two immediate questions I'd be grateful for help with:

1. how much should I feed her? I thought I read somewhere that insulin dosage needs to be matched to food quantity so don't feed to much? But then I read somewhere else that she will need more than her usual recommneded calories because she cannot metabolise efficiently? I'm thinking to give are abot 120% of her recommended daily calories?

2. you mentioned snacks between the two big meals. I read in the faq "Most people here would agree that feeding a cat between the time insulin peaks and the next shot is unwise". I take this to mean any snacks should be given in the first six hours after the dose rather than the second six hours? Have I understood that correctly?

I don't have a hypokit but I have a cupboard full of cat food. I will go through it and try to identify any medium or high carb food for the hypo kit.

A lot to take in and I'm a bit overwhelmed by it all. I will try to get round to the spreadsheet and signautre soon!
 
DavidJ said:
thank you so much.

Charly is on 0.5 IU twice a day to start with. Started last Saturday.

I'm in the UK. Feeding her Katkin https://www.katkin.com/high-protein-cat-food

It varies a little from flavour to flavour but this is typical composition:

Analytical constituents (%):

  • Protein 18.8%

  • Fat content 6.2%

  • Crude ash 2.2%

  • Crude fibre 0.1%

  • Moisture 72.8%
Does that look ok?

I've got a glucose meter on order but until then I guess I have no option but to continue dosing without testing.

I have two immediate questions I'd be grateful for help with:

1. how much should I feed her? I thought I read somewhere that insulin dosage needs to be matched to food quantity so don't feed to much? But then I read somewhere else that she will need more than her usual recommneded calories because she cannot metabolise efficiently? I'm thinking to give are abot 120% of her recommended daily calories?

2. you mentioned snacks between the two big meals. I read in the faq "Most people here would agree that feeding a cat between the time insulin peaks and the next shot is unwise". I take this to mean any snacks should be given in the first six hours after the dose rather than the second six hours? Have I understood that correctly?

Yes you have, and it is a lot to swallow so fast, don't worry, but it is erroneous not to feed several meals a day, if take a look at Corky's Spreadsheet and scroll all the way to the REMARKS, you will see how he is fed, he is not obese but perfect weight and if you see all those green numbers, that's where a diabetic cat needs to be in order for the pancreas to heal and start to produce its own insulin, again all cats are different, it took 3 years to get Corky where is at now, but you precious furr baby can get there as well, but with diligence, proper diet, and a lot of patience and if you allow us to help you on this journey you are using ProZinc as Corky, I cannot help you with dosing, but I can help you with other matters if not someone will be here to assist you, I will tag another ProZinc user that that can help you with dosing below is a link info for UK,
Food Info for UK - Google Drive

I don't have a hypokit but I have a cupboard full of cat food. I will go through it and try to identify any medium or high carb food for the hypo kit.

A lot to take in and I'm a bit overwhelmed by it all. I will try to get round to the spreadsheet and signautre soon!
Click to expand...
 
I know is a lot to tak in all at oncer, but do not despair we are here to help you with any concern you may have, unlike to what you may read, it is important for a diabetic cat to eat several meals ,snack during the day, as long as you are feeding low carbs between 0-10%, I have to be honest I never went by calories, to me was more important the carbs he consumed, and because I feed 6 meals a day, two main 4 smalls, I do not worry about calories,one more time I will point you to Corky's Spreadsheet(below in blue, click on it) scroll to the right see REMARKS, you can get an idea what he eats how much and the calories, as I said he is also on ProZinc, and when you see all those green BG numbers, that's where a diabetic cat needs to be in order for the pancreas to heal and begin to produce its own, it was 3 years since, it was not easy, but with the proper diet hoe testing before each dose, and lots of love, it is possible, and when in doubt or do not understand your Vet, I will tag another
ProZinc member that can assist you with dosing and other questions you may have, ask ask aks, We are here for you! below is a UK food list:bighug::cat::cat:
@Suzanne & Darcy

Food Info for UK - Google Drive
 
thank you. so you are feeding at regular intervals throughout the day? I'm still puzzled by this bit of advice in the faq "Most people here would agree that feeding a cat between the time insulin peaks and the next shot is unwise"?

thanks also for the UK food info. is this a list of just of low carb foods? you mentioned medium and high carb of the hypo kit but i don't see any on the list. Not sure if that's because its a list of low carb foods or because i am looking in the wrong place!
 
DavidJ said:
thank you. so you are feeding at regular intervals throughout the day? I'm still puzzled by this bit of advice in the faq "Most people here would agree that feeding a cat between the time insulin peaks and the next shot is unwise"?

thanks also for the UK food info. is this a list of just of low carb foods? you mentioned medium and high carb of the hypo kit but i don't see any on the list. Not sure if that's because its a list of low carb foods or because i am looking in the wrong place!
Click to expand...
any medium between 11-15 % carbs and high carb between 16-24% I do not know if you have access to Fancy Feast in the Uk or Friskies, but just like you calculated above you can use the same calculator for any gravy (high Carbs, when and if the BG is 50 or below, is when use the hypo kit, the Syrup or honey are a quick fix only, then you test after 15 minutes, then give a tsp at a time of medium carbs, or high carbs, any gravy can food is High Carb. but a tsp at a time and test every 1/2 hour until he is at a safe number like 69-70, if you need assistance with that you can 911 PM a post and myself or another member will walk you thru it, the syrups is given @ 1ml the first time only , you can find a small syringe without the needle and feed it thru the side of the mouth. But now the important thing is the dosing and correct feeding, you can download the calculator on your phone and go shopping for food with it, and yes the members here are advised to feed several times a day. and yes the UK list is for LOW carbs only
 
Hello and welcome, you and poor Charly have been through a lot.

Tagging @Elizabeth and Bertie if she pops in, to answer questions about medium and high carb food in the UK. I personally didn't have any medium carb food in my hypo kit, just one high carb food and some corn syrup in case Neko went really low.

As far as amount of food to feed, I think you can err on the side of more food as she needs to gain weight. Knowing her ideal weight and your scale will tell you if you need to feed more, less, or the same food.

Regarding the inflamed bowels, would it be possible for your vet to refer you to an internal medicine vet? I think you need a vet who knows how to treat. A steroid shot is NOT how you treat either IBD or small cell lymphoma. With diabetes in the picture too, I found an internal medicine vet to be really helpful in treating multiple conditions and they are very knowledgable in IBD or SCL. You start with an ultrasound, and based on the results, there are a couple ways to get a biopsy sample to determine which you are dealing with. The treatments for the two conditions are different so you want to know what you are dealing with.

Cats with IBD or SCL can be nauseous and not want to eat much. Ondansetron or Cerenia are good meds to help with that. Cerenia is better if there is vomiting, ondansetron for nausea.

DavidJ said:
I'm still puzzled by this bit of advice in the faq "Most people here would agree that feeding a cat between the time insulin peaks and the next shot is unwise"?
Click to expand...
Sorry, some of the information in the FAQ is out of date, though was more current thought when people were using short and quick acting insulins back when FDMB started. We mods are not able to modify that material. Prozinc, on the other hand, is a good gentle long lasting insulin for cats and you can feed multiple meals.
 
I'm also very new and very thankful to have found you. My vet had put the fear of god and bankruptcy into my head, and you all have calmed me down. Tonight is my first night injecting ProZinc to my 5(!) year old boy Yoshi. His symptoms were a little pukey and loosing weight. Went from 14# to 10# in about 6 months. Then bloodwork looked odd. Here we are...about $700 of testing and ProZinc later...
 
Wendy&Neko said:
@CaitlinO
Best to start your own thread about you and Starla
Click to expand...
If Charley’s appetite is not as it used to be there’s a medications called MIRATZ, small tube 1 pin drop in the inner fold of the ear,,exchanging ears daily for 7-14 days will hike up his appetite in a day you can order it at CHEWY.com pharmacy they will call your vet and get the prescription. And no vet bill!! :bighug::bighug::cat::cat:
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Hello and welcome, you and poor Charly have been through a lot.

Tagging @Elizabeth and Bertie if she pops in, to answer questions about medium and high carb food in the UK. I personally didn't have any medium carb food in my hypo kit, just one high carb food and some corn syrup in case Neko went really low.

As far as amount of food to feed, I think you can err on the side of more food as she needs to gain weight. Knowing her ideal weight and your scale will tell you if you need to feed more, less, or the same food.

Regarding the inflamed bowels, would it be possible for your vet to refer you to an internal medicine vet? I think you need a vet who knows how to treat. A steroid shot is NOT how you treat either IBD or small cell lymphoma. With diabetes in the picture too, I found an internal medicine vet to be really helpful in treating multiple conditions and they are very knowledgable in IBD or SCL. You start with an ultrasound, and based on the results, there are a couple ways to get a biopsy sample to determine which you are dealing with. The treatments for the two conditions are different so you want to know what you are dealing with.

Cats with IBD or SCL can be nauseous and not want to eat much. Ondansetron or Cerenia are good meds to help with that. Cerenia is better if there is vomiting, ondansetron for nausea.


Sorry, some of the information in the FAQ is out of date, though was more current thought when people were using short and quick acting insulins back when FDMB started. We mods are not able to modify that material. Prozinc, on the other hand, is a good gentle long lasting insulin for cats and you can feed multiple meals.
Click to expand...

yes i think she maybe ended up eating too much yesterday. she was lethargic and seemed a bit nauseous and was reluctant to eat this morning. glucose monitor not arriving tis this evening which made it a bit tricky to know what to do but I think we navigated it succesfully (she ate a small portion of a different food and had her insulin) and she has perked up and is looking hungry again now. but i am thinking to wait for next cycle and arrival of glucose monitor before feeding her or dosing her again this evening.

she has lost so much weight i am thinking she needs to gain a bit of strength before we do ultrasounds or biopsy. I'm hoping too that maybe the diabetes explains all her recent symptoms and she doesn't have ibd / scl / pancreatitis / triaditis . not sure if i'm clutching at straws there or not....
 
DavidJ said:
yes i think she maybe ended up eating too much yesterday. she was lethargic and seemed a bit nauseous and was reluctant to eat this morning. glucose monitor not arriving tis this evening which made it a bit tricky to know what to do but I think we navigated it succesfully (she ate a small portion of a different food and had her insulin) and she has perked up and is looking hungry again now. but i am thinking to wait for next cycle and arrival of glucose monitor before feeding her or dosing her again this evening.

she has lost so much weight i am thinking she needs to gain a bit of strength before we do ultrasounds or biopsy. I'm hoping too that maybe the diabetes explains all her recent symptoms and she doesn't have ibd / scl / pancreatitis / triaditis . not sure if i'm clutching at straws there or not....
Click to expand...
If Charley has been healthy up to the diabetes diagnose, I don’t believe nothing else can relate, Corky has been healthy throughout his life as an inside cat, he’s diagnosed, but has never had any other issues, and again all cats are different and a bit of a Pandora’s box, I hope you get the monitor and strips today I will try to reach a member to help you set up the spreadsheet, we need to see Charley’s daily cycle in order to guide you. better :bighug::bighug::cat::cat:
 
CORKY said:
If Charley has been healthy up to the diabetes diagnose, I don’t believe nothing else can relate, Corky has been healthy throughout his life as an inside cat, he’s diagnosed, but has never had any other issues, and again all cats are different and a bit of a Pandora’s box, I hope you get the monitor and strips today I will try to reach a member to help you set up the spreadsheet, we need to see Charley’s daily cycle in order to guide you. better :bighug::bighug::cat::cat:
Click to expand...
@Diane Tyler's Mom GA
@Bandit'sMom
@Marje and Gracie
Charley needs her SS set up do you think you can help
 
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DavidJ said:
yes i think she maybe ended up eating too much yesterday. she was lethargic and seemed a bit nauseous and was reluctant to eat this morning. glucose monitor not arriving tis this evening which made it a bit tricky to know what to do but I think we navigated it succesfully (she ate a small portion of a different food and had her insulin) and she has perked up and is looking hungry again now. but i am thinking to wait for next cycle and arrival of glucose monitor before feeding her or dosing her again this evening.

she has lost so much weight i am thinking she needs to gain a bit of strength before we do ultrasounds or biopsy. I'm hoping too that maybe the diabetes explains all her recent symptoms and she doesn't have ibd / scl / pancreatitis / triaditis . not sure if i'm clutching at straws there or not....
Click to expand...
I have 2 small videos showing how, step by step) I test Corky with explanation, the download feature in the forum does not work, if you like you can send me a PM message with you email address and I will be more than happy to send them to you, do not put your email address here, to PM a member, you click on the cat's picture a window will pop up, click on start a conversation, and you can type you title, this one you can title it how to test, if that can ease you some, is very easy to test:bighug::bighug::coffee::coffee::coffee::cat::cat:
 
This is a post, with videos and tons of information on home testing. One bit of information -- it's best to start out with a wider gauge lancet (e.g., around a 26 gauge) since it takes a bit of time for the capillary bed in the ear to develop. Once that happens, your cat's ear will bleed more easily. Once you've mastered the technique and it's easy to get blood, you can switch to a thinner lancet (e.g, 30 gauge).

If IBD is truly present, one thing you can do now is to look at foods that are novel proteins. It's likely that you've not been feeding Charly foods such as venison, rabbit, or quail. Basically, any food that she's not been eating is a novel protein. We recommend sticking with a canned food diet since most dry foods are quite high in carbohydrates.

I also agree with Wendy. I think you need a vet who is more familiar with how to do a diagnostic workup for IBD or lymphoma.

Please do not "send" blood work. Most lab reports are difficult to read. Once you have your spreadsheet set up, there is a tab where you can copy over the reference range from the lab along with the lab results. If you look on my spreadsheet or the spreadsheet in Wendy's signature you'll see the tab with our lab values.
 
If she needs to gain weight, no need to withhold food from her waiting for a meter. We have some kitties here who are grazers and have food down most of the time.
 
meter has arrived. i've not managed to get a succesful reading yet. but we will get there.

i think i'm going to continue feeding to a schedule until i have mastered themeter as i find it easier to interpret her behaviours and wellbeing if i know when shes eaten. there seems to be a definite pattern that if she eats a lot she looks uncomfortable lethargic sticky mouthed, thirsty and nauseous which is concerning me at the moment.

otherwise i am just thankful that compared to where we were this time last week it seems like we have been blessed with small miracle in that she is alive and eating and seems to be gaining a little weight slowly on the managed feeding schedule.
 
DavidJ said:
meter has arrived. i've not managed to get a succesful reading yet. but we will get there.

i think i'm going to continue feeding to a schedule until i have mastered themeter as i find it easier to interpret her behaviours and wellbeing if i know when shes eaten. there seems to be a definite pattern that if she eats a lot she looks uncomfortable lethargic sticky mouthed, thirsty and nauseous which is concerning me at the moment.

otherwise i am just thankful that compared to where we were this time last week it seems like we have been blessed with small miracle in that she is alive and eating and seems to be gaining a little weight slowly on the managed feeding schedule.
Click to expand...
And she will get much much better you'll see, remember when you go to the Vet ask for the MIRATZ for the appetite, they have it in their supplies, Best at the Vet:bighug::bighug::bighug::cat::cat:
 
Any chance you could get your vet to prescribe anti nausea medication such as ondansetron (Zofran is the brand, but generic is cheaper) or Cerenia? It sounds like she could be nauseous, not uncommon with GI issues. I would treat with an anti nausea drug before going to an appetite stimulant like Mirataz. You don't want to give an appetite stimulant to a nauseous cat, or you could create food aversions. And often treating nausea will bring back their appetite.

If she does have pancreatitis, not uncommon along with IBD or small cell lymphoma, the it should be treated too. That means anti nausea drugs and pain medications. More information here: Article on Pancreatitis for UK residents. and A Primer On Pancreatitis
 
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