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taffysmom

taffysmom

Member Since 2013
Hello...my name is Scarlett and my 9yr old female dsh - Taffy - diagnosed diabetic about 6 weeks ago. I took her in to get a panel done b/c she was acting like she was starving and I noticed some weight loss. While there were some other results that probably need to be looked into the biggest one was her BG was 411 at the time she was tested. She was started on 2u of Lantus 2 weeks later, we moved to a new city and had to change vets. Her insulin dosage keeps getting increased every week (Lantus) her BG readings were going down but now they are back up in the 500s, she is continuing to lose weight, and still acts ravenous but not as bad as before. There have been a lot of changes recently and now I am just confused at these readings and would like to get some advice. I have not started home testing yet but our new vet and I have discussed. This is not the most cooperative cat and it's not that I'm scared to do it but I am pretty sure she will not let me do it. She does not like to feel trapped (she was found as a feral kitten and I adopted her when she was about 1 yr old after living in a cage at Petsmart for 9 months). She hides when she hears voices other than mine or my husbands and just to give you an example of her anxiety level I had to take her to the e-vet the day after we moved b/c the cable guy came into the house and she was still so paniced even after 3 hrs of him leaving I was afraid she was going to have a heart attack- panting drooling overall freaked out. $400 and a shot of kitty xanax later she was back to normal. I will list her background and what I have been trying to monitor the last few weeks. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

2005 - 20099 fed 1/2 can fancy feast classics bid and free fed dry food (don't remember 1st brand for 1st few years I had her but eventually switched to Royal Canin Persian b/c of other cat's allergies). In 2009 she weighed 14 lbs - no mention from any vets that she was overweight as she is tall and long - twice the size of my little petite persian
2010 - same feeding regiment 14.9 lbs
2012 - diet switch to hills k/d 1/4 can of wet bid (although she didn't really like it) and free fed hills k/d dry - my other cat was diagnosed w/ crd - vet said ok for both cats to eat.
2/2013 - my other kitty passed and I went back to feeding Taffy 1 can FF classics bid and free fed dry - went thru a few brands b/c she didn't like and settled on a grain free Earthborn Holistic
4/23/2013 - 14.7 lbs routine vet visit - took in to get rabies shot - asked vet again of effects of switching off of k/d and was told not to be concerned
7/6/2013 - 12.6 lbs asked to run blood panel b/c she was acting like she was starving and I had noticed some weight loss. BG came back at 411. Other readings that were high and low were:
Alk Phosphatese 65 (high)
CK - 51 (low)
BUN 42 (high)
Cholesterol 399 (high)
Chloride 102 (low)
Anion Gap 32 (high)
My old vet in Pittsburgh did not discuss any of the readings with me other than BG and Taffy needed to be put on insulin. (I didn't see all of these until I moved and requested her vet records)
7/10/2013 12.4 lbs - vet visit to learn how to give shots - no mention of home testing - didn't even know that was possible - started on 2u (Lantus) - told not to change diet
7/22/2013 - took in to vet (still PGH) to get readings at 12pm (370) and again at 6pm (376). Instructed to increase to 2.5u
7/25/2013 - 12.12 lbs - trip to e-vet (Philadelphia) b/c of panic attack. BG read 328. got shot of seditive to calm her down. Was back to eating normally by evening (and she did eat and received shot that morning as well)
8/2/2013 - 12.23 lbs NEW VET (this is when things started to confuse me) BG 549 was recommended switching to Hills m/d 1/2 can bid and no more dry food. told to increase Lantus to 3u
8/9/2013 - 11.86 lbs BG 411 - after 1 week of being fed hills m/d and no dry - cat is driving me nuts b/c she wants food ALL THE TIME and I am sticking to 12 hr feedings and shots. told to increase Lantus to 3.5u
8/16/2013 - 11.25 lbs BG 532 - on this day I was hopeful we had hit a sweet spot. Taffy wasn't begging as much and she is urinating 2 or 3 times a day vs the 6 and 7 when she was first diagnosed. Needless to say my heart broke a little when I saw the reading and her loss of more weight. Dr said to increase to 4u

After reading many other discussions I've come to the conclusion she isn't eating enough and went and bought more FF classics. Morning feeding (6:45am) 1/2 can m/d + 1/2 FF. Mid day if she is acting hungry 1/2 can FF. Night feeding (6:45pm) 1/2 can m/d, 1/2 can FF. Also found venison jerky treats to give to her (about 5/6 pieces a day)

My confusion - her weekly weight loss, the jump in BG when we went to a new vet, but temperment and urine looking better
I am in the Northern Liberties area of Philadelphia if anyone has any suggestions.
thank you so much!
Scarlett
 
Welcome to FDMB.

ETA: updated to include mmol/L and AlphaTrak estimates.
Since you've mentioned home testing, let me give you some glucose reference ranges used for decision making using glucometers. Human glucometer numbers are given first. Numbers in parentheses are for non-US meters. Numbers in curly braces are estimates for an AlphaTrak.

< 40 mg/dL (2.2 mmol/L) {< 70 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Treat as if HYPO if on insulin
- At nadir (lowest point between shots) in a long term diabetic (more than a year), may earn a reduction.

< 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) {< 80 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- If before nadir, steer with food, ie, give modest amounts of medium carb food to keep from going below 50 (2.8).
- At nadir, often indicates dose reduction is earned.

50 - 130 mg/dL (2.8 - 7.2 mmol/L) {80 - 160 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- On insulin - great control when following a tight regulation protocol.
- Off insulin - normal numbers. (May even go as low as the upper 30s (1.7 mmol/L){60s for an AlphaTrak}; if not on insulin, this can be safe.

> 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- At nadir, indicates a dose increase may be needed when following a tight regulation protocol.

200 mg/dL (11.1 mmol/L) {230 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- no shot level for beginners; may slowly reduce to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {180 mg/dL} for long-acting insulins (Lantus, Levemir, and ProZinc) as data collection shows it is safe

180 - 280 mg/dL (10 - 15.6 mmol/L) {may be 210 - 310 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Any time - The renal threshold (depending on data source and cat's renal function) where glucose spills into the urine.
- Test for ketones, glucose is too high.

>= 280 mg/dL (15.6 mmol/L) {may be >=310 mf/dL for an AlphaTrak}, if for most of the cycle between shots
- Uncontrolled diabetes and thus at risk for diabetic ketoacidosis and hepatic lipidosis
- Follow your insulin protocol for dose adjustments
- Test for ketones; if more than a trace level of ketones, go to vet ASAP.
 
Cat Info has a great deal of information on feline nutrition, as well as a printable food chart with the percent of calories from protein, fat, and carbohydrate - something not put on cans.

You want the food to be less than 10% calories from carbohydrates. I feed Friskies pates to my cats. You can leave out food most of the day for your cat.
 
I also forgot to mention in my previous post ever since the switch to hills m/d Taffy has been sneezing. Not like she has a cold or resp. infection (vet ruled that out) but just sneezing. Wondering if she could be allergic. Although my last kitty was allergic to wheat and she just scratched hersef to the point of bleeding - never sneezed.

Thank you for the links! She has been off the dry food (even though it was grain free) for 3 weeks now. BG went up after I took her off of it.
 
Please look up the foods you are feeding at Cat Info. My guess is that the carbohydrate calories have gone up.

The sneezing could be allergies or a cold. Some cats have a chronic herpes infection which breaks through under stress. Giving 500 mg of L-lysine may help.

The dose is somewhat high and there could be a couple of reasons for that .
- the carbohydrate level in the food
- certain medical conditions
- she could just work that way
- perhaps you have missed the correct dose by increasing too much at a time

How much does your cat weigh? How much should she weigh?
How did you get to the current dose - curves at the vet? Were increases 0.5 units at a time or 1 unit at a time?
 
Hi Scarlett and Taffy and welcome to the FDMB. Lots of experience with feline diabetes here to help you.

You may be interested in reading this article by member Kpassa who has a feral kitten Michaelangelo. Ear Testing Psychology

You need to get Taffy used to getting her ears touched first. Rub and fondle them as many times a day as you can. Talk to her and tell her what a good girl she is. That is step one, getting her used to having her ears touched.
 
Hello and welcome to the board!

So Taffy is on hills m/d and FF? The m/d is too high carb at 14%. But I wouldnt remove it until you are home testing as her BG might drop quite fast when you do.

Home testing will be the key here to really see whats going on. It will save you taking her to the vet and she might be easier to test than you think. How does she feel about being stroked and her ears being rubbed? You dont need to restrain her when testing.

Wendy
 
mmm...I had a reply posted but it disappeared.
I will look up the contents of the food she has been eating pre and post diagnosis..but i've fed her FF classics for most of the time I've had her.
she has always been a 14 pounder and vets have never given me an ideal weight for her so I always assumed it was her ideal weight - I could be wrong but she looks too skinny to me on the hind end at 11 lbs and she was always pretty solid...nothing swinging or swaying when she walks.
All of her dose increases have been in .5 unit increments. I have been w/in 15-20 mins of the every 12 hour dosage and feedings since her diagnosis with the exception of 2 times. once when we moved and the other when she got sick b/c she ate a corn husk (that toy is now in the trash)
Deb & Wink - thank you for that article - Taffy to a T when I skimmed over it - will read deeper in depth later. She does like her ears rubbed..when she wants them rubbed - that will be the tricky part..and she is not lured by treats...she would starve before she did something she didn't want to do - at least thats been most of my experiences with her - but i will work on her...i'm her cat wisperer
She hisses and purrs at the same time and always has. I've just learned how to avoid the biting (for the most part) i'm always saying she would be a good "cat from hell" participant
I have only been adding the FF back in the food mix over the last 2 days b/c of her continued weight loss over the last several weeks. Her nbrs have read in the 500s being on just FF or just m/d
I am going to look into getting the BG monitor and strips this week and we have another scheduled vet visit on friday.
thank you all again! i'm exhausted from scanning/reading everything and need to give my eyes and brain a break..will check back in in a few days
 
How are things going today? Have you had a chance to look into getting a glucometer?

Getting Started Shopping List:
1. Glucometer (i.e. a Walmart ReliOn Confirm/Micro or Prime)
2. Matching Strips
3. Lancing device if you prefer
4. Matching lancets if you're using a lancing device. If not, then look for the "alternate testing site" lancets, which are great to use for when first starting out.
5. Ketostix for testing the urine for ketones (a potentially dangerous condition that can develop from hyperglycemia)
6. Freeze-dried meat treats (essential when first starting out testing)
 
Hello,
Sorry I didn't get a chance to check the board yesterday. Taffy is doing OK. I did go buy the glucometer (the ReliOn Confirm) and all the stuff to go with it. I have an appt with vet on Friday so she can show me how to poke her. I tried a few times from watching the videos on line and I'm not doing it hard enough but don't want to give her a piercing. Taffy has black ears and it is hard to see where to poke. I will get vet to shave off an area so I can see better. I've been luring her to the couch to get her preped for this experience that I'm still not sure how it will go. She's not a nice cat and I get bitten (no blood from me but it does hurt) or swatted from her almost everyday just because I walk by her. On the flip side she loves me and will curl up and cuddle with me - most days. That being said I am going to have to master this testing without losing a finger and without getting the cat too stressed out and she stresses out pretty quickly. Lord help me!
She has a habit of peeing up high in her litter box that I check several times a day. Was able to put in a ketone strip in the urine that pooled around the rim and it was negative. She is getting the 4 units of lantus am and pm - healthy appetite - almost too healthy - giving her 1 can of Fancy Feast split into 1/4's throughout day so she will chill out on top of her 1/2 can of m/d am and pm.
No signs that the 4 units of lantus is too much. No change in temperment or attitude or energy.
Thank you for checking in on us :)
 
You might want to try it with the device if that is easier for you. I've never been able to get the hang of poking free-hand with a lancet because I just don't seem to get the angle or the depth right and I rarely get blood or I get a major bleeder.

Have you seen these ear testing tips that might help?
 
There may be hope for this home testing thing. Turns out Taffy likes the cotton more than treats. She actually sat still long enough for me to poke her. I saw blood :)
Of course by the time I grabbed the glucometer to suck it up she shook her head and it disappeared. Then she was done with me. Will keep trying
 
Snag it on a clean nail if she tends to bolt. You can test it from there. ;-)
 
Regarding the aggression, one of my civvies (non diabetic cat) gets extremely aggressive when he is hungry, maybe your kitty too? Shags is a big boy so I have to make sure he doesn't get too hungry else the rest of the pack (or me if I walk past him and don't have food with me) gets beat up.
 
BMJ - that's a great idea..wouldn't have guessed I could do that..thanks! :)

Barb - she is heavily aggressive when she is hungry - even swats at me when I put her food bowl down. She rejects the don't bite the hand that feeds you concept lol. And she is aggressive about 80% of time - hungry or not. I've been around 100's of cats - none that have ever been this bi-polar - which is how I ended up with her b/c no one else was crazy enough to take her home. I've had her for 8 yrs and she's been this way the whole time - and worse since the diabetic issue has popped up. Even the lady that ran the shelter I volunteered at was scared of her. Taffy and I have a lot of stand offs. Sometimes I win, sometimes she wins. She is now my only cat as she probably would beat the snot out of any other animal that came thru our door. @-)

I'm trying every chance I get to poke that ear without her being too suspicious of me..when I get it you will all be hearing me shouting for joy lol
 
If she will play, get her engaged in active play - running, jumping, etc) for a good 15-20 minutes twice a day and work off some of that energy.

You might try a Feliway diffuser or two in her most commonly inhabited rooms.
 
Just got back from vet. She is still reading in 500s. 509 on their monitor 411 on the relion. Told me to increase another .5 unit so that will put her at 4.5 on the Lantus
Also got a urine test done to see there is any infection.
tried at least a dozen times yesterday to get another ear prick. No luck..that is going to take a lot patience and rewarding to build up to...I also need 2 more arms. When my husband comes back from being out of town will get him to help too. Vet suggested getting a muzzle to help with getting home readings. I'm not to that point yet as I know that will stress her out too but if over the next couple weeks we are unsuccessful it may get to that point. :(
 
Not yet Wendy...I am trying to hold off on any type of restraint because she reacts so visciously to it but it looks like that is what it will come down to. I can get her in a good scruff hold but that requires 2 more arms and for the last few days it's been just me at the house. My husband is the only other person she won't hide from so have to wait for him to get back home before next attempt.
 
Remember to bribe Taffy with those low carb treats when you test. She'll learn to associate the treat with a test and come running for a test in time.
 
Here's something I wrote up a while back for ear-testing "difficult cats" that you might find helpful.

Oftentimes, it's simply the location that is causing the problem. I went to help out another member the other day with testing her neighbor's cat because they were having such a hard time doing it. They had been testing the cat on the patio this entire time but instead, we tried testing her on the dining room table and the cat was cooperative and sat through numerous ear pokes. When we let her go, she didn't run and hide like she normally used to do, but instead wandered on happily into the living room and plopped down comfortably.
 
I GOT BLOOD :razz:
322 20 mins before her shot time.
I gave her 4.25 last night even tho vet recommended 4.5 units
So should I go 4.5?

Now..I will aslo say she was pretty aggitated when I took it. Had to burrito her and she was pissed. Gave her a couple of treats that she ate while growling and then she came after me and bit me on the ankle. But I got blood. I will continue to try the "nice" way but my guess is this is going to be forced withdrawal for a while. I pray she gives into it like the other kitties I've read about.
Thank you to everyone for the advice and encouragement :)
 
Welcome to the Vampire Club ... both being one and being attacked by one, it sounds like!
 
Good job - but LOL.. sounds like she got blood from you too!! ;)

Over time she will get used to it but it might take a while. Also get a spray bottle with water in it and have that beside you. Then test her, give let her go and give her a few treats to delay her long enough for you to get up and walk away from the test area. If she tries to come after you then spray her in the face with it. Chasing and biting mamabean is not acceptable. But you need to walk away because you dont want her to associate that with testing. Testing means treats. Biting mamabean means nasty water spray.

Can you get a mid cycle test today?

I would hold the 4.5 for 3-5 days unless you spot her going under 50.

Wendy
 
Welcome to the vampire club!
 

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Just got her 342
man is she grumpy but she did stay more still this time wrapped up..of course she growls the whole but no bites on this poke :)
We have guests staying with us tonight which means she will be hiding under the bed and we are in a really small apartment so I probably will not be able to get her again today.
I am feeding her and giving her night shot right before they get here. Since her readings have been so high I'm feeling safer with the 4.5 but I always get nervous when the vets have been telling me to bump it every week
 
Sounds like a little progress.

Also you know you don't have to do what the vet says. It's your cat and your vet doesn't live with you (as far as I know)



Wendy
 
Hello to the wonderful FDMB folks!!
So I may be getting impatient but I got 2 tests in today. 1 amps @ 409 and 1 at +5 @ 390 (no attacks afterwards this go around :)
I want to just give Taffy the fancy feast instead of 1/2 hills m/d and 1/2 ff and see if that makes a difference
I am also curious about the "optimin dosage level"
She was in the high 300's when she was bumped up to 3 units but was still getting some dry food as I didn't realize the importance of her not getting ANY
She has been completely off dry for a little over 3 weeks now. Dosage has been bumped up every week in .5 unit increments (has been at 4.5 units for last 5 days) and her BG isn't really changing that much IMO.
I am home all day so I can watch her. I have gravy food and karo on hand
Watching her during the day is easier than a night b/c I've been sleep deprived
What is the suggested method when going to a food switch? lower the insulin some? keep it the same? proportional food change? or complete food change?
There is a lot of material that i've been reading and am frankly overwhelmed and can't remember what I have read or where...there needs to be a cheat sheet somewhere lol
thanks!
Scarlett
 
I would keep the dose the same for now but focus on more tests if you can. Is she getting any better at testing?

The issue is that she could be dropping too low and you are missing it. With a lot of cats on here you see a low period (maybe as few as 4-6hours or a day of low) followed by 2-3 of nothing but highs... This happens Especially if the low is too low (under 50). She could be having dangerous lows and you are missing them. Or she could be sitting high all the time. We just don't know.

But I know she is difficult to test. I would try and always get a preshot test and a mid cycle one as well. If you can get that for 2-3 days we might be able to spot the low.

Wendy
 
Great job on getting the testing in!

The wet Hills m/d isn't significantly higher in carbs than we recommend (14%), so you will see an impact, but it won't be as large of an impact as you should have seen when you removed the dry. This makes me think that there might be something else going on with Taffy, like an infection of some sort. You said the urine test came back clean on infection? How are her teeth? Is she on any steroids or any other medications? My other suspicion is that Taffy is bouncing around because the dose might be too high.

What we'll want are a few more tests to see if this dose needs to be raised or lowered. For testing, it is recommended to test a minimum of 3-4 times, if possible. You always want to test before every shot to know that it's safe to give a shot (for new members, anything over 200 is generally considered "safe" to shoot). You also want to get a test about halfway through the cycle during the day (if possible). Finally, you want to get a "before bed" test to see where Taffy is heading overnight.

For additional testing, on your days off or when you can, try getting a few tests about two hours after a shot and a few more mid-cycle tests (5 to 7 hours after the shot). What I do throughout the week is I test randomly across each cycle and I try to cover as much of each 12-hour cycle as possible by the end of the week. This gives me a pattern on how Michelangelo reacts throughout the week instead of on just one day. If you fail on a test or miss a test, don't worry. It gets easier with time and practice. When I first started out, I considered every "failed" test as just a practice round instead. :lol:
 
Urine test was negative. vet says teeth look good. not on any other meds
I'm also starting to wonder if the dose is too high
I also meant I am home all day..as in every day all day (luckily I get to work from home)
Taffy seemed more accepting to the 2 tests I did today so i think she is ready to start doing it more frequently.
She doesn't like it but the last 2 I did on her went easier than before - and she is getting venison jerky for treats so I'm forgiven once she gets that.
I will try getting the preshot tests and varying hours for in between shots as much as I can for the next week.
Thanks for the quick answer :)
Will be back in touch in a few days when I can get more added to the sheet
Have a great day!
Scarlett
 
Hows things going?

I see you are still feeding the m/D - do you want to give it a try to take her off that? Its 14% carbs and could well be the reason she is so high

Wendy
 
Hi Wendy,
YES! I want her off of the m/d. I gave her just FF beef 2 days ago and got a reading in the 200s. 1st one since her diagnosis. Now, with that being said I had also just up'd her to 5 units of lantus (from 4.5). We have done 6 rounds at 5 units as of this morning. The last 3 feedings I cut m/d to 1/3 from 1/2. And plan to keep cutting it down. Wasn't sure if it was safe to cut it all at once so I thought of cutting it gradually (I usually think of these things after I done them). I absolutely welcome your suggestions on transitioning to lower carbs...would also like to know if I should lower the insulin any.

For the most part I've got this testing thing down :) and she is FINALLY being cooperative. Can put this cat in the "I can't test my cat b/c she's difficult" WIN section - I didn't think she would do it and she is..so I will definately be watching for posts from people in same situations and encourage them :) Testing is getting easier except for those preshot tests and I know they are important. She is so wound up about getting fed and honestly I got tired of being bitten and scratched (water bottle didn't really have an effect and was making her more angry). So we are working on a new routine that worked this morning - giving her a little bit of food in her testing spot - tested her and she didn't even flinch or notice. flip_cat

So..going with the gradual switch idea I bought several 9% carb cans of food that were lower than the m/d but higher than the FF beef, chicken and turkey that she would normally eat.
I am with her pretty much 24/7 unless I run out to the store of something and can watch her and test her if I see any signs of a hypo but so far she is being her normal self

Also, I finally figured out all of my posting notices were going to my junk mailbox (duh) and now I will get updates on my phone with new posts so I can reply more promptly :)
Thank you for checking in on us today :YMHUG:
 
Yay! I would put together a plan to get her off it over the next week. Only reason I say a week is to avoid any diarrhea issues with the food change. As long as you are home testing there should be no surprises if she drops low so you are ok to switch immediately to a lower carb FF - no need for intermediate medium carb foods.. Just watch for blues and yellows - if you see those you might want to get another test in an hour to see if she has dropped more.

Thats great news on her being cooperative - and great that will share your experience with home testing with other newbies that are having difficulties! Its a big hurdle for some - and they really believe its not possible.I reckon with 95% it is.

Wendy
 
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