New member: Pabay 10yr moggie

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Pabs&Ro

Pabs&Ro

Member Since 2020
I have made a few posts not having read the forum page properly - apologies. Pabay is a 10 year old diabetic cat having been diagnosed in June 2018. He suffered from pancreatitis in 2018 and possible from 2017. The pancreatitis waxes and wanes. It causes vomiting and also makes him a very fussy eater. He has lost 0.5kg and is very thin. We never have trouble getting enough water in him: he likes to have a shower most mornings and likes drinking warm water) We have battled getting his blood glucose under control and I wish I had found this forum long ago. He was on caninsulin at the outset but he did not stabilise. He was then on prozinc and he was reasonably stable but we rarely had a flat bottomed curve. At the start of the covid lockdown we had the disastrous news that prozinc was no longer available. Since then he has been on caninsulin and we have been flat lining at 33mmol (very poorly cat). He got in a fight and had to have his tongue stitched back together in July and a week later he collapsed. I thought I had lost him. He may have had a seizure or infection (normal white blood cell count). The antibiotics cleared up the problems quickly. During the last BG curve he was flat lining in the high 20's for 6 hours in the morning. (I have suspected for a long time that the insulin I am given is ineffective. I store it properly and monitor the temperature with a digital thermometer. The company supplying the insulin thought it could be stored at room temperature!!!!!! They have now been given advice by the manufacturer) So I obtained a fresh cartridge (not vial) of caninsulin half way through the curve and injected that earlier than normal at 3pm and within an hour his BG came down to high teens. So now we are waiting to stabilise him and do another BG curve. He eats Hills MD kibble (wet food makes him sick) with a little Canagan wild game and purina probiotic. He is given vit B injection every two weeks or so (half the monthly dose very two weeks) which improves his appetite and well being enormously. I have used the libre sensor but he rips it off and his skin with it. So I use the alphatrak to monitor his BG. I am keen to move him to glargine and the vet thinks this is a wothwhile exercise. We are to make the decision at the end of September 2020.
 
Welcome to FDMB Its about time you found us! Where have you been? LOL Pabay sure has been through it hasnt he.:( Poor kitty kitty!
You may want to start here:
New? How You Can Help Us Help You!
Give this a read then come back and ask questions.
We are a community of kitty cat lovers tied together by a common thread Diabetes. Theres a wealth of information here with good people to help you decipher it all.
We welcome any and all who want help, figuring out what to do next.
Its going to be ok. We are here to help!
jeanne
 
It sounds like you’re in the UK? I have to say dry food is bad for diabetic cats. Really probably the worse as it’s very high in carbs. Can you experiment with different types of wet food that may be pancreatitis friendly and he may agree with more? We have lots of options here in the US from companies that make low card human grade novel protein foods. Here’s a food chart so you can see just how high in carbs kibble is. Diabetic cats should be eating food that has 10% or less carbs

Someone posted recently that prozync is now available in the UK again. It’s a much better insulin for cats so it may be worth switching once you’re done with the caninsulin you have now
 
Thanks - prozinc is in theory available but none of the drug companies are selling it yet. I have written to Boehringer about supply and awaiting a response. Pabay has pancreatitis and eating is a real problem. We have no problem with water intake. Wet food makes him sick and I have tried everything. I have to keep him alive: it's that bad with the pancreatitis and vomiting. He is on Hill's MD dry food so it is a special diet not just any dried food.
 
HI Ro,

Pabay looks a real dote, and he's had such a hard time of it lately. His poor tongue! :nailbiting:

Pabs&Ro said:
Pabay has pancreatitis and eating is a real problem.
Click to expand...
Oh, how I feel for Pabs and yourself. Chronic pancreatitis is the absolute pits. ((Pabs & Ro))

I agree with you about the B12 injections. They're a real fillip for pancreatitis kitties. Do you mind my enquiring what other treatments you use to manage Pabay's pancreatitis / eating issues?

Pabs&Ro said:
Wet food makes him sick and I have tried everything. I have to keep him alive: it's that bad with the pancreatitis and vomiting.
Click to expand...
Cat's gotta eat. When chronic pancreatitis is an issue, an acceptable food trumps *everything* else.

Pabs&Ro said:
I am keen to move him to glargine and the vet thinks this is a wothwhile exercise. We are to make the decision at the end of September 2020.
Click to expand...
I think this is a good plan. The longer duration of Lantus may give that little bit of extra support to Pabay's pancreas throughout the day. My Saoirse certainly got on better with its gentler action profile compared to the bigger swings in BG levels typical of Caninsulin. (I've not used Prozinc.) Also, being an insulin used by humans, availability of Lantus would hopefully will be less vulnerable to supply chain problems.

Pabs&Ro said:
We never have trouble getting enough water in him: he likes to have a shower most mornings
Click to expand...
This just melted my heart. Bless! :cat:

It's great that Pabay drinks well for you. Proper hydration helps a great deal with the pancreatitis symptoms.

Welcome to you both. :)


Mogs
.
 
Ooof, poor little guy!

Agree with a lot of the comments on this thread so far-- fingers crossed that it works out to get Pabay on Lantus, it's a great insulin for cats in general and might be just the thing for him.

Pabs&Ro said:
Wet food makes him sick and I have tried everything. I have to keep him alive: it's that bad with the pancreatitis and vomiting. He is on Hill's MD dry food so it is a special diet not just any dried food.
Click to expand...

Agreed. In this kind of situation, the "best" food for you kitty is the one he'll eat :). You can always dose insulin around any extra carbs.

That said, just so you know, there's really nothing special (other than an excellent marketing department) about the Hills M/D dry, it's not only high in carbs it's not necessarily even particularly high quality food. If he's got another favorite food that's easier on your wallet, no reason to stick with the Hills.
 
Thank you. It has been a struggle lately but such a pleasure to see Pabay happy when life is going well for him. There is not much we can do for the pancreatitis itself other than the pro-biotic (purina pro plan fortiflora feline probiotic) and vit b. I also given him seraquin which contains turmeric to help reduce any inflammation. I try to avoid giving him anything that may cause vomiting if at all possible as I don't think that helps his pancreatitis. It is a very painful condition so we give him painkillers: meloxidyl but that is risky because it makes him vomit. He was on gabopentin for several months and this significantly improved his appetite.
 
Glad you've found some things to help Pabay, Ro.

Here are some things that helped Saoirse:

* B12 injections.
* Ondansetron for nausea & vomiting. (Very much Saoirse's key maintenance med - helped to manage ongoing fluctuations in severity of nausea and appetite problems.)
* One-off Cerenia injections for nausea at beginning of a flare-up on top of the ondansetron. (Cerenia is also purported to have some anti-inflammatory properties.)
* Cyproheptadine for appetite stimulation. (Again a maintenance med, given as needed. Short-acting and very controllable effect.)
* Nutramed Anti-inflammatory Supplement (maritime pine bark and boswellia for inflammation, milk thistle for liver support).
* Buprenorphine (sub-lingual) - full dose TID for pain relief during flare-ups, and eventually a small daily dose (0.1ml) for maintenance.
* Famotidine (occasional ad-hoc use to help relieve vomiting due to stomach acid build-up when appetite was poor and her stomach was empty for too long).
* B-complex, for general support and to help with appetite.
* Very occasional 2-3 day treatment with metoclopramide to help with temporary gut motility problems.
* Plain pumpkin to help keep her regular (she got very icky and lethargic if she went too long without a poop).
* Slippery elm bark - occasional use to soothe her GI tract if she got a dodgy batch of the only food she could tolerate.
* Vitamin B Complex.
* Hepatosyl Plus (if liver support needed).

Note: Mirtazapine is another commonly used appy stimulant but it wasn't suitable for Saoirse: she had a very adverse reaction to it.

Our vet once prescribed Tramadol for pain relief but, like Pabay with the meloxidyl, she was violently sick on it after her first dose and I wouldn't give it to her again.

I'm sure you've heard of all of the above before, but I just thought I'd share the info because they helped my beloved girl and I was grateful people shared the info with me. in particular, I was very grateful to a couple of members of this community for introducing me to ondansetron. I'd never have known to ask the vet for it had it not been for them. It saved my little one's life on more than one occasion.


Mogs
.
 
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Critter Mom said:
Glad you've found some things to help Pabay, Ro.

Here are some things that helped Saoirse:

* B12 injections.
* Ondansetron for nausea & vomiting. (Very much Saoirse's key maintenance med - helped to manage ongoing fluctuations in severity of nausea and appetite problems.)
* One-off Cerenia injections for nausea at beginning of a flare-up on top of the ondansetron. (Cerenia is also purported to have some anti-inflammatory properties.)
* Cyproheptadine for appetite stimulation. (Again a maintenance med, given as needed. Short-acting and very controllable effect.)
* Nutramed Anti-inflammatory Supplement (maritime pine bark and boswellia for inflammation, milk thistle for liver support).
* Buprenorphine (sub-lingual) - full dose TID for pain relief during flare-ups, and eventually a small daily dose (0.1ml) for maintenance.
* Famotidine (occasional ad-hoc use to help relieve vomiting due to stomach acid build-up when appetite was poor and her stomach was empty for too long).
* B-complex, for general support and to help with appetite.
* Very occasional 2-3 day treatment with metoclopramide to help with temporary gut motility problems.
* Plain pumpkin to help keep her regular (she got very icky and lethargic if she went too long without a poop).
* Slippery elm bark - occasional use to soothe her GI tract if she got a dodgy batch of the only food she could tolerate.

Note: Mirtazapine is another commonly used appy stimulant but it wasn't suitable for Saoirse: she had a very adverse reaction to it.

Our vet once prescribed Tramadol for pain relief but, like Pabay with the meloxidyl, she was violently sick on it after her first dose and I wouldn't give it to her again.

I'm sure you've heard of all of the above before, but I just thought I'd share the info because they helped my beloved girl and I was grateful people shared the info with me. in particular, I was very grateful to a couple of members of this community for introducing me to ondansetron. I'd never have known to ask the vet for it had it not been for them. It saved my little one's life on more than one occasion.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
Thanks Mogs - great - very helpful. "Cyproheptadine for appetite stimulation" - I have not come across this one - is it tablet from?
 
Yep. It comes in 4mg tablet form. (Branded version is Periactin.) Usually 1/8th of a tablet is enough to give the appetite a bit of a nudge. Obviously your vet would give you information about dosage.

Here's more info:

marvistavet.com library - Cyproheptadine

For safety, check the side effect profile for contraindications. (The above site is a really helpful resource for information on pet meds and health issues. Informative and well-written.)

Not mentioned on the above site, but antihistamines may be contraindicated for cats with blood pressure issues.


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
HI Ro,

Pabay looks a real dote, and he's had such a hard time of it lately. His poor tongue! :nailbiting:


Oh, how I feel for Pabs and yourself. Chronic pancreatitis is the absolute pits. ((Pabs & Ro))

I agree with you about the B12 injections. They're a real fillip for pancreatitis kitties. Do you mind my enquiring what other treatments you use to manage Pabay's pancreatitis / eating issues?


Cat's gotta eat. When chronic pancreatitis is an issue, an acceptable food trumps *everything* else.


I think this is a good plan. The longer duration of Lantus may give that little bit of extra support to Pabay's pancreas throughout the day. My Saoirse certainly got on better with its gentler action profile compared to the bigger swings in BG levels typical of Caninsulin. (I've not used Prozinc.) Also, being an insulin used by humans, availability of Lantus would hopefully will be less vulnerable to supply chain problems.


This just melted my heart. Bless! :cat:

It's great that Pabay drinks well for you. Proper hydration helps a great deal with the pancreatitis symptoms.

Welcome to you both. :)


Mogs
.
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I was just about to tag you but you beat to it ha!
 
I am going to look into ondansetron. Yes he does have on blue and one yellow eye
 

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Critter Mom said:
Glad you've found some things to help Pabay, Ro.

Here are some things that helped Saoirse:

* B12 injections.
* Ondansetron for nausea & vomiting. (Very much Saoirse's key maintenance med - helped to manage ongoing fluctuations in severity of nausea and appetite problems.)
* One-off Cerenia injections for nausea at beginning of a flare-up on top of the ondansetron. (Cerenia is also purported to have some anti-inflammatory properties.)
* Cyproheptadine for appetite stimulation. (Again a maintenance med, given as needed. Short-acting and very controllable effect.)
* Nutramed Anti-inflammatory Supplement (maritime pine bark and boswellia for inflammation, milk thistle for liver support).
* Buprenorphine (sub-lingual) - full dose TID for pain relief during flare-ups, and eventually a small daily dose (0.1ml) for maintenance.
* Famotidine (occasional ad-hoc use to help relieve vomiting due to stomach acid build-up when appetite was poor and her stomach was empty for too long).
* B-complex, for general support and to help with appetite.
* Very occasional 2-3 day treatment with metoclopramide to help with temporary gut motility problems.
* Plain pumpkin to help keep her regular (she got very icky and lethargic if she went too long without a poop).
* Slippery elm bark - occasional use to soothe her GI tract if she got a dodgy batch of the only food she could tolerate.

Note: Mirtazapine is another commonly used appy stimulant but it wasn't suitable for Saoirse: she had a very adverse reaction to it.

Our vet once prescribed Tramadol for pain relief but, like Pabay with the meloxidyl, she was violently sick on it after her first dose and I wouldn't give it to her again.

I'm sure you've heard of all of the above before, but I just thought I'd share the info because they helped my beloved girl and I was grateful people shared the info with me. in particular, I was very grateful to a couple of members of this community for introducing me to ondansetron. I'd never have known to ask the vet for it had it not been for them. It saved my little one's life on more than one occasion.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
Hi Mogs,
I have a question about slippery elm bark. This is why: Pabay has just been to the vet again today. We started Prozinc on Wednesday and today's visit was not because of that but because he was acutely ill (stomach upset and or UTI: blood in urine and leucocytes; no ketones). Pabay has a very sensitive stomach and I have started to give him one teaspoonful of Purina md wet food. I think this may be the cause. This morning my healthy cat (who is also transitioning because she is a bit overweight) did not make it to the cat litter tray before she had a poo on the kitchen floor (exceptional) and Pabay had liquid diarrhoea after the trip to the vet. So I am thinking of trying something for his gut. What dose of this do you give please?

Thanks Julie
 
Hi Julie,

Sorry for delay in replying (not been on the board most of the day - fatigue bad today).

Purina DM has quite a high liver content so I wonder whether that might be a bit rich for little Pabay?

If you can see mucus in the faeces it's a good idea to give your vet a call as a precaution. Ditto for any sign of blood.

You can find the information you need for slippery elm bark at the following link:

Tanya's Site - Slippery Elm Bark Dosage and Preparation

I've not bought it for a while. I used to get it from Neal's Yard because I wanted the organic powder (pure SEB, no additives). IIRC, before you place an order online it's best to ring them first to check whether their current stock is an organic product as sometimes they can't source it.

Nutrabio is a kaolin probiotic paste that can help soothe the GI tract and firm up the stool fairly quickly, although it's a tad messy to administer. (I was given kaolin and morphine once when I was a kid for a major GI upset. I didn't want to drink it because it looked disgusting (brown watery sludge) but my goodness did it make me feel better quickly! My nine-year-old self was most impressed - and grateful!)

I've read reports here and elsewhere that probiotic saccharomyces boulardii can be a very effective treatment for diarrhoea. I've not used it myself so can't provide a review. More info at the following links:

ibdkitties.net - Probiotics

My Cat Has Diarrhoea, What Do I Do?

Hope some of the above is helpful and that Pabay and Ro are better very soon. :)


Mogs
.
 
Hi Mogs, Many thanks for all of the info. Sorry to hear of your fatigue - hope you have a better day today. We were at the vet in the morning where antibiotics and anti-vomit injections were administered. He deteriorated during the day so at the hospital last night. :arghh: He started to drool which he has never done before so very worried about dehydration. Syringing water into his mouth every hour to keep him hydrated worked as he was not dehydrated in the evening. Before going to the hospital his breathing became rapid and shallow and I didn't think he was going to survive the night as much worse than he has ever been before. He was given a kitty opiate so we had wide opiate kitty eyes. When he arrived home he started to eat - :bighug:. He is bright this morning - back legs are a bit weak but he has eaten and drunk. So hope he continues to improve. Thanks again - off to Holland and Barrett this morning for some slippery elm bark.
 
Critter Mom said:
Oh .... :( Poor Pabs... :bighug:

I'm so glad the fluids worked their magic and he's perkier today, Julie. Hope the SEB does him good. Be sure to let us know how he gets on, and shout out if you need help.

:bighug:


Mogs
.
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Hi, Thanks. I will need some help later when I get some more figures on my bg curve. It is not looking good. Flat lining in mid twenties mmol. Will post the spreadsheet later. Cheers Julie
 
Pabs&Ro said:
Hi, Thanks. I will need some help later when I get some more figures on my bg curve. It is not looking good. Flat lining in mid twenties mmol. Will post the spreadsheet later. Cheers Julie
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that Pabay is poorly - he looks like a sweet little chap!

If he likes dry food, my vet recommended Purina DM as being better quality than Hills, and it's about the same level of carbs - around 13%, which is a bit higher than recommended here but better than regular kibble. RRP is high, but you can buy it online a lot cheaper than from the vet.

My two cats (one diabetic, one not) wouldn't touch the Purina DM wet, perhaps because of the texture? Maddie's quite picky, so a lot of the foods we've tried have gone into the Cats Protection donation box at our local Tesco :rolleyes:

However we've found she likes Wild Freedom, which we get from ZooPlus - at the moment we've only tried the Wide Country (chicken) flavour, but the multipack is back in stock now. If you haven't already checked out the UK food spreadsheet, it's very helpful, if a bit daunting!

There's also Blink, which isn't a complete food (it's mostly chicken breast with some added taurine and vitamins) but could be worth it for bad flare-ups - a lot of supermarkets stock it. It's also quite low in calories and therefore works out expensive.
 
Thanks will do but I am new to this and don't know how to tag..... sorry. It might be quite late so please don't look out for it until tomoz. I am going to try and go to when the next nadir should be just to get a full picture.
 
@CritterMom

Mogs and anyone who can help please. Pabay's BG results are in and he has flat lined in the mid-twenties. He has lost more weight (4.5kg and should weigh 5.2 at least) because he was ill at the weekend. Drinking excessively and eating more than usual. So on 2.5 units of caninsulin he seems to be bouncing: possibly. On 2 units of ProZinc it is not enough I think???? I have switched to U100 needles so I can increase the dose in smaller units. I also attach a more detailed spreadsheet than the one in the signature. If anyone has any time to cast their eye on the spreadsheet and offer an informed view I would be most grateful.
 

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Maddie Mouse said:
If he likes dry food, my vet recommended Purina DM as being better quality than Hills, and it's about the same level of carbs - around 13%, which is a bit higher than recommended here but better than regular kibble.
Click to expand...
Purina DM is 18% carbs - it is considered high carb. The only acceptable diabetic dry is EVO, Dr Elseys, and Young Again. :) Although anything under 10% is acceptable, we really try to stay 5% and under.

I'm going to let Deb comment on the spreadsheet ... when doses are changed often it makes it really hard for me to notice the patterns happening.

I will say that you're testing a bit more than needed ... and I rarely say that lol. When he is in reds and blacks it's really just a waste of strips getting hourly tests. Bounces take up to six cycles to clear so there's not going to be anything interesting happening a couple hours after 400+ numbers, especially in a mid-cycle.

Could you do me a favor though and insert an extra row of cells and put PROZINC or something similar so it's easier for readers to see when you switched? :)
 
Panic said:
The only acceptable diabetic dry is EVO, Dr Elseys, and Young Again. :) Although anything under 10% is acceptable, we really try to stay 5% and under.
Click to expand...

Those foods that Panic (Elizabeth) mentioned, are only available in the US, not in the UK.

Pabs&Ro said:
I am keen to move him to glargine and the vet thinks this is a wothwhile exercise. We are to make the decision at the end of September 2020.
Click to expand...
Why wait so long? For the switch to a better, longer lasting insulin?
Another month on the Prozinc may not do your cat Pabay any good.
But 6 days back on the Prozinc is not a very long time. Six of one, half a dozen of the other as the saying goes, in regards to switching the insulin sooner to glargine (lantus).

As you can imagine, we need a reference point to know how well the insulin is working. That reference point is the pre-shot test, before you give the insulin.

Would you please try to get those pre-shot tests, every insulin dosing cycle? Each cycle is 12 hours.

Without them, we can't tell how far and how fast the BG levels are changing. So I can't really judge what the Prozinc is doing ofr Pabay. He may be in a bounce situation for the last several cycles.

Panic said:
Could you do me a favor though and insert an extra row of cells and put PROZINC or something similar so it's easier for readers to see when you switched?
Click to expand...
I second that request that Elizabeth made.
 
Panic said:
Is there no low-carb dry available in Europe??
Click to expand...
Nope. Big nope. Not like there is in the US, with 5-7 % carbs or less.

The closest is the Thrive Premium Plus foods the chicken flavor and the chicken and turkey flavor, per the UK food chart. Around 9% carbs. There are a few other dry foods that are in the 10-13% carb range.

Raw would be even less carbs. The raw food is often successful for a cat that has digestive issues.
 
Critter Mom said:
Hi Julie,

I've not used Prozinc so I'm really sorry I can't be of help with the dosing side of things. I'm tagging @Deb & Wink and @Panic to ask them to review Pabay's spreadsheet for you when they're next online.

How is Pabay doing today?


Mogs
.
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Thankz Mogs. Yesterday he was very subdued but was much perkier in the evening. Ate a huge quantity of food and it stayed in!
 
Deb & Wink said:
Those foods that Panic (Elizabeth) mentioned, are only available in the US, not in the UK.


Why wait so long? For the switch to a better, longer lasting insulin?
Another month on the Prozinc may not do your cat Pabay any good.
But 6 days back on the Prozinc is not a very long time. Six of one, half a dozen of the other as the saying goes, in regards to switching the insulin sooner to glargine (lantus).

As you can imagine, we need a reference point to know how well the insulin is working. That reference point is the pre-shot test, before you give the insulin.

Would you please try to get those pre-shot tests, every insulin dosing cycle? Each cycle is 12 hours.

Without them, we can't tell how far and how fast the BG levels are changing. So I can't really judge what the Prozinc is doing ofr Pabay. He may be in a bounce situation for the last several cycles.

I second that request that Elizabeth made.
Click to expand...
The reason is that we wanted to try and get some stability as we go on holiday today. We postponed in July because he was ill and with the covid situation worsening in the uk we fear that if we don't go now we will be back in lockdown. Pabay is too poorly to leave so he is coming with us in our campervan (which he likes). New insulin and everything else would be off the scale. So we are all geared up to go on glargine imediately on our return.
 
Pabs&Ro said:
Tried raw but he just refused to eat. Tried cooking my own food too but he only licks it! I tried some dead mice that they feed snakes but no go either.
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Well he just can't make it easy for us can he!
Kitties sure are stubborn about their food ... my mom's cat snubs her nose at the wet I give her and wait until my mom gets up and give her dry. :rolleyes: Don't know how she would react to raw.

Have you ruled out food sensitivities on top of everything? Fish, carrageenan, guar gum, are common issues for cats. None of those are in Hills M/D kibble. :bookworm:
Just thinking out loud. A picky, pancreatitic, upset tummy kitty sounds like a challenge.
 
Pabs&Ro said:
He eats Hills MD kibble (wet food makes him sick) with a little Canagan wild game and purina probiotic.
Click to expand...
Did Pabay have any issues before starting on this food....?

The ingredients in the Hill's MD dry food are not great. It does contains a couple of ingredients that cats can be intolerant to. The very first ingredient listed is a vegetable protein extract. It also contains wheat:
"Composition: Maize Gluten Meal, Chicken (32%) And Turkey Meal, Pea Protein, Wheat, Animal Fat, Cellulose, Minerals, Digest, Dried Beet Pulp, L-Carnitine, Taurine, Vitamins, Trace Elements, Beta-Carotene. With a Natural Antioxidant (Mixed Tocopherols)"

Some kitties can be very sensitive to foods that contain vegetable protein extracts. It is increasingly being added to wet cat foods now too, which is something we do need to watch out for. (It used to just be in Felix 'as good as it looks', but is now creeping into many foods).
If a diabetic kitty is sensitive to a vegetable protein extract it can spike their blood glucose considerably. As an example, I recall a UK cat in remission whose blood glucose spiked up to 31 mmol after eating a pouch of Felix AGAIL (which is technically a low carb food). And I used to keep some of that same food on hand in the event that Bertie had a hypo, because I could guarantee it would raise his blood glucose fast. (I stopped doing that when I realised I may be deliberately triggering some kind of inflammatory response in him, and that wasn't a good thing to do...)

Food sensitivities aside (and they may indeed not be an issue for Pabay) the Hill's MD is also really too high in carbohydrate. And that is going to make it much harder to get good control of the blood glucose.
This is the food that Bonbon was on when we adopted her in Feb of last year. She was on a dry diet and 4 units of Caninsulin. She'd also twice been really ill in the rescue centre with severe constipation; and one blockage had caused a nasty infection in her gut. ...Once she was here I got her used to being hometested, switched her to a lower carb dry food, and then to wet food. Once off the higher carb food her insulin requirement dropped by half, to two units. (And we were lucky in that she subsequently went into remission). Her constipation problems also resolved.

If Pabay really can't eat wet food then, as has been said above, the Thrive 'premium plus' foods (the chicken and the chicken & turkey) seem to currently be the lowest carb dry food in the UK. The ingredients are also much better than the Hill's MD. Here's the ingredients of the chicken and turkey:
"Dried chicken (52%), dried turkey (13%), freshly prepared chicken (13%), chicken fat (6%), potato, sweet potato, freshly prepared turkey (4%), chicken gravy (3%), minerals, vitamins, salmon oil."

There are a few other dry foods on the UK list too, with just slightly higher carb levels. The dry foods are almost at the bottom of the cat food list in a section called 'Dry Kibble Type Foods'. The carb % is in the yellow column to the right of that.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml#

Eliz
 
Deb & Wink said:
As you can imagine, we need a reference point to know how well the insulin is working. That reference point is the pre-shot test, before you give the insulin.
Would you please try to get those pre-shot tests, every insulin dosing cycle? Each cycle is 12 hours.
Without them, we can't tell how far and how fast the BG levels are changing. So I can't really judge what the Prozinc is doing ofr Pabay. He may be in a bounce situation for the last several cycles.
Click to expand...
Panic said:
I will say that you're testing a bit more than needed ... and I rarely say that lol. When he is in reds and blacks it's really just a waste of strips getting hourly tests. Bounces take up to six cycles to clear so there's not going to be anything interesting happening a couple hours after 400+ numbers, especially in a mid-cycle.
Click to expand...

I agree with Deb that it is really important to get preshot tests before every shot. And I also agree with Elizabeth that you are sometimes testing far more than you need to on other occasions. You could give yourself a bit of a break if the numbers are just high and flat.
It is the 'day to day' tests that give us the most useful information. Curves add to the information that the daily tests give us, but they don't replace that information.
The most important tests to get are the preshot tests. It is these that tell us whether the cat's blood glucose is high enough for insulin. And they can also sometimes clue us in to other things that may be going on, such as whether a cat may be bouncing.
After the preshot tests we need to know how low the cat's blood glucose drops on that particular dose of insulin. So, getting some mid cycle tests is also very important.

I'd suggest focussing on getting preshot tests every day, and also at least one mid-cycle test during each cycle (more if it looks like the blood glucose is dropping and needs to be kept an eye on), to try to catch how low the blood glucose is dropping. I do wonder if there are drops in blood glucose that are being missed. And getting preshots and mid cycle tests every day could fill in some more pieces of the puzzle.

Eliz
 
Thanks. It all sounds easy but with an unstable cat it is difficult. In the 2 years pabay has been on insulin there has never been an occasion where he had bg levels that meant i could not shoot. Pabay can have a nadir 3+ to 5+ but also 9+ can get quite low. There is no pattern. Also when first on insulin he could drop to 1.8mmol for ten minutes. So it is v difficult because we always have high pre shots and don't know when the nadir is. I will try more pre shots but as pabay is a grazer (big meals make him sick) i wonder what they will really tell me (: that he has just eaten??)
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Did Pabay have any issues before starting on this food....?

The ingredients in the Hill's MD dry food are not great. It does contains a couple of ingredients that cats can be intolerant to. The very first ingredient listed is a vegetable protein extract. It also contains wheat:
"Composition: Maize Gluten Meal, Chicken (32%) And Turkey Meal, Pea Protein, Wheat, Animal Fat, Cellulose, Minerals, Digest, Dried Beet Pulp, L-Carnitine, Taurine, Vitamins, Trace Elements, Beta-Carotene. With a Natural Antioxidant (Mixed Tocopherols)"

Some kitties can be very sensitive to foods that contain vegetable protein extracts. It is increasingly being added to wet cat foods now too, which is something we do need to watch out for. (It used to just be in Felix 'as good as it looks', but is now creeping into many foods).
If a diabetic kitty is sensitive to a vegetable protein extract it can spike their blood glucose considerably. As an example, I recall a UK cat in remission whose blood glucose spiked up to 31 mmol after eating a pouch of Felix AGAIL (which is technically a low carb food). And I used to keep some of that same food on hand in the event that Bertie had a hypo, because I could guarantee it would raise his blood glucose fast. (I stopped doing that when I realised I may be deliberately triggering some kind of inflammatory response in him, and that wasn't a good thing to do...)

Food sensitivities aside (and they may indeed not be an issue for Pabay) the Hill's MD is also really too high in carbohydrate. And that is going to make it much harder to get good control of the blood glucose.
This is the food that Bonbon was on when we adopted her in Feb of last year. She was on a dry diet and 4 units of Caninsulin. She'd also twice been really ill in the rescue centre with severe constipation; and one blockage had caused a nasty infection in her gut. ...Once she was here I got her used to being hometested, switched her to a lower carb dry food, and then to wet food. Once off the higher carb food her insulin requirement dropped by half, to two units. (And we were lucky in that she subsequently went into remission). Her constipation problems also resolved.

If Pabay really can't eat wet food then, as has been said above, the Thrive 'premium plus' foods (the chicken and the chicken & turkey) seem to currently be the lowest carb dry food in the UK. The ingredients are also much better than the Hill's MD. Here's the ingredients of the chicken and turkey:
"Dried chicken (52%), dried turkey (13%), freshly prepared chicken (13%), chicken fat (6%), potato, sweet potato, freshly prepared turkey (4%), chicken gravy (3%), minerals, vitamins, salmon oil."

There are a few other dry foods on the UK list too, with just slightly higher carb levels. The dry foods are almost at the bottom of the cat food list in a section called 'Dry Kibble Type Foods'. The carb % is in the yellow column to the right of that.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml#

Eliz
Click to expand...
Will check out this food thankyou.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Did Pabay have any issues before starting on this food....?

The ingredients in the Hill's MD dry food are not great. It does contains a couple of ingredients that cats can be intolerant to. The very first ingredient listed is a vegetable protein extract. It also contains wheat:
"Composition: Maize Gluten Meal, Chicken (32%) And Turkey Meal, Pea Protein, Wheat, Animal Fat, Cellulose, Minerals, Digest, Dried Beet Pulp, L-Carnitine, Taurine, Vitamins, Trace Elements, Beta-Carotene. With a Natural Antioxidant (Mixed Tocopherols)"

Some kitties can be very sensitive to foods that contain vegetable protein extracts. It is increasingly being added to wet cat foods now too, which is something we do need to watch out for. (It used to just be in Felix 'as good as it looks', but is now creeping into many foods).
If a diabetic kitty is sensitive to a vegetable protein extract it can spike their blood glucose considerably. As an example, I recall a UK cat in remission whose blood glucose spiked up to 31 mmol after eating a pouch of Felix AGAIL (which is technically a low carb food). And I used to keep some of that same food on hand in the event that Bertie had a hypo, because I could guarantee it would raise his blood glucose fast. (I stopped doing that when I realised I may be deliberately triggering some kind of inflammatory response in him, and that wasn't a good thing to do...)

Food sensitivities aside (and they may indeed not be an issue for Pabay) the Hill's MD is also really too high in carbohydrate. And that is going to make it much harder to get good control of the blood glucose.
This is the food that Bonbon was on when we adopted her in Feb of last year. She was on a dry diet and 4 units of Caninsulin. She'd also twice been really ill in the rescue centre with severe constipation; and one blockage had caused a nasty infection in her gut. ...Once she was here I got her used to being hometested, switched her to a lower carb dry food, and then to wet food. Once off the higher carb food her insulin requirement dropped by half, to two units. (And we were lucky in that she subsequently went into remission). Her constipation problems also resolved.

If Pabay really can't eat wet food then, as has been said above, the Thrive 'premium plus' foods (the chicken and the chicken & turkey) seem to currently be the lowest carb dry food in the UK. The ingredients are also much better than the Hill's MD. Here's the ingredients of the chicken and turkey:
"Dried chicken (52%), dried turkey (13%), freshly prepared chicken (13%), chicken fat (6%), potato, sweet potato, freshly prepared turkey (4%), chicken gravy (3%), minerals, vitamins, salmon oil."

There are a few other dry foods on the UK list too, with just slightly higher carb levels. The dry foods are almost at the bottom of the cat food list in a section called 'Dry Kibble Type Foods'. The carb % is in the yellow column to the right of that.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml#

Eliz
Click to expand...
Thank you. I have ordered the thrive. Will give it a go. Many thanks
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Did Pabay have any issues before starting on this food....?

The ingredients in the Hill's MD dry food are not great. It does contains a couple of ingredients that cats can be intolerant to. The very first ingredient listed is a vegetable protein extract. It also contains wheat:
"Composition: Maize Gluten Meal, Chicken (32%) And Turkey Meal, Pea Protein, Wheat, Animal Fat, Cellulose, Minerals, Digest, Dried Beet Pulp, L-Carnitine, Taurine, Vitamins, Trace Elements, Beta-Carotene. With a Natural Antioxidant (Mixed Tocopherols)"

Some kitties can be very sensitive to foods that contain vegetable protein extracts. It is increasingly being added to wet cat foods now too, which is something we do need to watch out for. (It used to just be in Felix 'as good as it looks', but is now creeping into many foods).
If a diabetic kitty is sensitive to a vegetable protein extract it can spike their blood glucose considerably. As an example, I recall a UK cat in remission whose blood glucose spiked up to 31 mmol after eating a pouch of Felix AGAIL (which is technically a low carb food). And I used to keep some of that same food on hand in the event that Bertie had a hypo, because I could guarantee it would raise his blood glucose fast. (I stopped doing that when I realised I may be deliberately triggering some kind of inflammatory response in him, and that wasn't a good thing to do...)

Food sensitivities aside (and they may indeed not be an issue for Pabay) the Hill's MD is also really too high in carbohydrate. And that is going to make it much harder to get good control of the blood glucose.
This is the food that Bonbon was on when we adopted her in Feb of last year. She was on a dry diet and 4 units of Caninsulin. She'd also twice been really ill in the rescue centre with severe constipation; and one blockage had caused a nasty infection in her gut. ...Once she was here I got her used to being hometested, switched her to a lower carb dry food, and then to wet food. Once off the higher carb food her insulin requirement dropped by half, to two units. (And we were lucky in that she subsequently went into remission). Her constipation problems also resolved.

If Pabay really can't eat wet food then, as has been said above, the Thrive 'premium plus' foods (the chicken and the chicken & turkey) seem to currently be the lowest carb dry food in the UK. The ingredients are also much better than the Hill's MD. Here's the ingredients of the chicken and turkey:
"Dried chicken (52%), dried turkey (13%), freshly prepared chicken (13%), chicken fat (6%), potato, sweet potato, freshly prepared turkey (4%), chicken gravy (3%), minerals, vitamins, salmon oil."

There are a few other dry foods on the UK list too, with just slightly higher carb levels. The dry foods are almost at the bottom of the cat food list in a section called 'Dry Kibble Type Foods'. The carb % is in the yellow column to the right of that.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J5JpMe6TDXrHq_aTl9hUtHy6Gs9oRBqlz4nPGKxtySA/pubhtml#

Eliz
Click to expand...
Pabay has a long history of not thriving before pancreatitis and diabetes were diagnosed. He has always been underweight. He was on wet food when younger but that started the vomiting and he became exceptionally fussy. His troubles pre date hills food by about 2-3 years. His sister has the same food and thrives on it.
 
Some good news. I tested pabay pre evening shot and in 30s mmol. Not surprising after a 7 hour journey in our camper van. But just tested +3 and 11.1 mmol. I did not change the dose it us still 2 units. What i did change was the bottle of insulin. I opened a new one as i was worried the insulin was not working. Quite a significant change.
 
Hi, Pabay is doing better on his holiday! He has put on 300grammes - now 4.8kg (he was 5.2kg). I did a BG curve on 11th September and the curve is a good shape I think but the figures are high. I am pleased that the bouncing seems to have stopped and consequently he is much better in himself. I increased the dose by 0.5 units on Saturday 12 September and will do another curve later this month. Am I doing the right thing? Any information will be great. Many thanks.
 
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