New Member Intro - Momo

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MomoAndRobin

Member Since 2023
Hi everyone!

My name is Robin. My girlfriend and I had our 11 year-old cat Momo (the grey one in my profile picture) diagnosed with diabetes in mid-January this year following a bout of prednisolone for IBD. Managing diabetes has been an adventure, and we are trying to take a more proactive role in determining Momo's insulins needs.

With her IBD and chronic pancreatitis, Momo's appetite and food options have made it difficult to manage her blood sugar. We had her eating a combination of Royal Canin's hydrolyzed protein dry and Hill’s z/d wet food, but after a few days of vomiting that ended with a 3-day hospital stay for hypoglycemia we switched her over to the dry food only. Her vomiting seemed to coincide with the wet food, but we weren't sure of the cause and attributed it to and IBD/pancreas flare up. This was tough as Momo is very food motivated, but she did not enjoy the dry food. Cue many struggles trying to time the insulin dose and keep her appetite regular.

Thankfully, we started feeding her Royal Canin Select Protein PD food as of 6/2 and she loves it. So far, it seems to agree with her stomach and we're starting to see lower BG numbers.

As far as insulin goes, she originally started on 3 units of Glargine twice a day. We dropped this to 2 units before Momo had her hypoglycemic incident. Once she was stabilized, the vet found out that even with normal food intake 2 units sent her into hypo territory so we dropped down to 1 unit. After recent high BG readings, the vet recommended 1.5U in the morning and 1U in the evening.

Momo tolerates home testing well! This is an area where we are trying to learn more and be more proactive. Since her diagnosis our vet has recommended testing only before shot/meal times, then only testing if there were symptoms, and now testing more often but not on a specific schedule. I think like most of the folks I've read on here have said, they seem to struggle with strong recommendations for fear of pet parents getting overwhelmed. We are now trying to find a good cadence and are going to start doing +4 and +8 regularly in addition to the 0 and +12 (next PS) tests. I work from home so I have ample opportunity to monitor and test.

Since Momo's hypoglycemia, we've been hesitant to administer insulin with low numbers. The more I'm reading, though, it sounds like we want to get her BG down and keep it down. I'm still nervous to give her too much in the evening as I'm worried about hypo overnight. I just imagine what might have happened had we been asleep during that drop into the 30s. Once we have more data logged in the spreadsheet I'm hoping I'll be more confident in a range for giving/withholding insulin. If anyone has advice or experience with Glargine/Lantus and BG ranges from an AlphaTrak, I would be all ears.

I also want to give a huge THANK YOU to all of you who contribute such wonderful information to this message board. I've already found out that I can keep Glargine longer than 28 days, that we can buy much cheaper syringes online, and that using a human BG meter would save us a ton of money as well (we just replenished our AT strips so the swap will have to wait). All of this will make a huge difference in the ongoing costs to manage diabetes, which is incredibly helpful given that Momo's new prescription food is $100 for 24 5oz cans. It's hard to put a price on a food that keeps both her IBD and diabetes more manageable, though.

I know this has been a wall of text, but I wanted to make sure I provided all of the relevant information for Momo and her journey so far. One cute story that came out of her recent hospital stay - once Momo was stabilized and the doctor came to give us an update, he said that Momo didn't seem like a hypoglycemic cat (they confirmed with their meter) because she gave them hell when they put the IV in. She is a little fighter. The next morning they called and said once her BG was back to normal, she was extremely sweet and affectionate. Momo doesn't seem to do anything halfway.

We are going to keep reading and start using the spreadsheet in my signature to get Momo's insulin dosage under control. Thank you all again for your contributions past, present, and future.
 
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Welcome Robin and Mono
Sorry no one has gotten back to you yet, I'm going to bump your post up so more experienced members will see your post.
One thing I can tell you is that lantus likes consistency , shooting different doses in the AM and PM isn't advised. We will have to find a dose that you can shoot for both cycles.

We always test at AMPS (AM Pre Shot) to be sure it's a safe number to shoot
We usually suggest to new members not to shoot if the BG is less than 200.
You would not feed then test again to see if the BG number is rising in it's own.
You would post and say something like this Help Stalling then put what the BG # is
Do not feed 2 hours before testing AMPS and PMPS because you don't want Momo's BG number to be influenced by food.

Lantus/Glargine is a good insulin for cats, after you give the shot ,Glargine usually takes effect @+2
I would suggest getting a test in @+2, +4 and +6 both AM and PM
Each day you want to test at different times like one day test at what I mentioned above ,the the next day test @+3, +5 and +7
Mix them up each day, like filling in pieces of a puzzle

Your vet having you start at 3 units was high , we usually start with 0.5 or 1 unit
We adjust the dose by 0.25 units at a time and we don't go by the pre shot numbers to see how much insulin to give ,we adjust the dose by the nadir the lowest point during the cycle
Do you know how many carbs are in the wet food you are feeding?
What flavors are you feeding or is there only the pea and rabbit flavor?
Sorry Mom was hospitalized for 3 days do to a hypo
I don't know what other wet foods to suggest for your hypo kit to bring Momo's numbers up if needed since you can only feed what you are feeding now due to her IBD and chronic pancreatitis.
Maybe some more experienced members can give you some suggestions
For now always have some honey or Karo syrup on hand.

It's great that you work from home .
I see after you finish the Alpha Trak Strips you might want to swap to a human meter ,that's what our numbers are based on anyway
I can suggest one when you are ready or if you want to know now just ask
Do you feed Momo during each cycle, We usually feed our catsva small snack several times maybe @+2, +4 , a lot of members will feed more than that
One thing you need to add to your signature is Glargine and IBD/Chronic Pancreatitis . Tap in your name up top then tap in signature and add them.
Great job setting your SS up already
I'm going to tag a few experienced members for you about the dose
If it wasn't for the experienced members here giving me advice I know that Tyler wouldn't be in remission since 1-24-21
Have you read the yellow stickys about Glargine and especially the 2 dosing methods to chose one. They will let you know when to either increase or decrease.
When you decided please add it to your signature and SS up top

Here is the link so you can read about Lantus/ Glargine
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-levemir-biosimilars.9/
 
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Welcome to FDMB! And thank you for already having a signature and spreadsheet set up.

I have a couple of observations. Most dry food is way high in carbohydrates. The Royal Canin is 44% carb and the Z/D is 47% carb. We consider a low carb diet for feline diabetes to be less than 10% carb and most of the members here feed a diet that's in the neighborhood of 5%. While you can certainly manage Momo's insulin around the IBD, I suspect the very high carb diet is at least in part what's contributing to the difficulty you're having with insulin since glargine is a very good insulin for managing your cat's diabetes. Not to put too fine a point on it, what you're feeding Momo is like giving a diabetic a steady diet of ice cream and candy.

I'd encourage you to take a look at this website on Raw Feeding for IBD Cats. I'm not necessarily suggesting you switch to a raw diet (although my IBD cat has done exceptionally well on a mostly raw diet) but the site is a wealth of information about IBD. The group also has a Facebook page where they will answer questions. If your vet didn't think to tell you, most IBD cats do well on a diet of novel proteins. For example, venison, rabbit, lamb, or even pork or kangaroo may help to manage the IBD. IBD acts almost like an allergy to some of the more common proteins and can cause vomiting and other GI issues. Novel proteins don't do this.

With glargine, consistency is a key issue. You may want to take a look at the sticky notes at the top of the Lantus (glargine) board if you've not done so already. Glargine works differently than most insulin in that it is a depot type of insulin. If you make changes in the dose, you need to give the new dose a chance to stabilize otherwise you end up with wonky numbers. You don't necessarily adjust the dose based on pre-shot numbers. Dose changes are made based on how low the dose takes your cat's test numbers. As an example, the 64 would indicate you need to reduce Momo's dose by 0.25u.

Please let us know how we can help. The members here are very generous with their time and knowledge.
 
Hi everyone!

My name is Robin. My girlfriend and I had our 11 year-old cat Momo (the grey one in my profile picture) diagnosed with diabetes in mid-January this year following a bout of prednisolone for IBD. Managing diabetes has been an adventure, and we are trying to take a more proactive role in determining Momo's insulins needs.

With her IBD and chronic pancreatitis, Momo's appetite and food options have made it difficult to manage her blood sugar. We had her eating a combination of Royal Canin's hydrolyzed protein dry and Hill’s z/d wet food, but after a few days of vomiting that ended with a 3-day hospital stay for hypoglycemia we switched her over to the dry food only. Her vomiting seemed to coincide with the wet food, but we weren't sure of the cause and attributed it to and IBD/pancreas flare up. This was tough as Momo is very food motivated, but she did not enjoy the dry food. Cue many struggles trying to time the insulin dose and keep her appetite regular.

Thankfully, we started feeding her Royal Canin Select Protein PD food as of 6/2 and she loves it. So far, it seems to agree with her stomach and we're starting to see lower BG numbers.

As far as insulin goes, she originally started on 3 units of Glargine twice a day. We dropped this to 2 units before Momo had her hypoglycemic incident. Once she was stabilized, the vet found out that even with normal food intake 2 units sent her into hypo territory so we dropped down to 1 unit. After recent high BG readings, the vet recommended 1.5U in the morning and 1U in the evening.

Momo tolerates home testing well! This is an area where we are trying to learn more and be more proactive. Since her diagnosis our vet has recommended testing only before shot/meal times, then only testing if there were symptoms, and now testing more often but not on a specific schedule. I think like most of the folks I've read on here have said, they seem to struggle with strong recommendations for fear of pet parents getting overwhelmed. We are now trying to find a good cadence and are going to start doing +4 and +8 regularly in addition to the 0 and +12 (next PS) tests. I work from home so I have ample opportunity to monitor and test.

Since Momo's hypoglycemia, we've been hesitant to administer insulin with low numbers. The more I'm reading, though, it sounds like we want to get her BG down and keep it down. I'm still nervous to give her too much in the evening as I'm worried about hypo overnight. I just imagine what might have happened had we been asleep during that drop into the 30s. Once we have more data logged in the spreadsheet I'm hoping I'll be more confident in a range for giving/withholding insulin. If anyone has advice or experience with Glargine/Lantus and BG ranges from an AlphaTrak, I would be all ears.

I also want to give a huge THANK YOU to all of you who contribute such wonderful information to this message board. I've already found out that I can keep Glargine longer than 28 days, that we can buy much cheaper syringes online, and that using a human BG meter would save us a ton of money as well (we just replenished our AT strips so the swap will have to wait). All of this will make a huge difference in the ongoing costs to manage diabetes, which is incredibly helpful given that Momo's new prescription food is $100 for 24 5oz cans. It's hard to put a price on a food that keeps both her IBD and diabetes more manageable, though.

I know this has been a wall of text, but I wanted to make sure I provided all of the relevant information for Momo and her journey so far. One cute story that came out of her recent hospital stay - once Momo was stabilized and the doctor came to give us an update, he said that Momo didn't seem like a hypoglycemic cat (they confirmed with their meter) because she gave them hell when they put the IV in. She is a little fighter. The next morning they called and said once her BG was back to normal, she was extremely sweet and affectionate. Momo doesn't seem to do anything halfway.

We are going to keep reading and start using the spreadsheet in my signature to get Momo's insulin dosage under control. Thank you all again for your contributions past, present, and future.
@Bron and Sheba (GA)
@Suzanne & Darcy[/USER
[USER=5773]@Wendy&Neko

@Sienne and Gabby (GA)

Hi ladies I gave Robin some info but can't help her with the same dose to give for both cycles
Thanks[/USER]
I see Robin started feeding her Royal Canin Select Protein PD WET food as of 6/2 and she loves it. So far, it seems to agree with her stomach and we're starting to see lower BG numbers.
 
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Welcome Robin and Mono
Sorry no one has gotten back to you yet, I'm going to bump your post up so more experienced members will see your post.
One thing I can tell you is that lantus likes consistency , shooting different doses in the AM and PM isn't advised. We will have to find a dose that you can shoot for both cycles.

We always test at AMPS (AM Pre Shot) to be sure it's a safe number to shoot
We usually suggest to new members not to shoot if the BG is less than 200.
You would not feed then test again to see if the BG number is rising in it's own.
You would post and say something like this Help Stalling then put what the BG # is
Do not feed 2 hours before testing AMPS and PMPS because you don't want Momo's BG number to be influenced by food.

Lantus/Glargine is a good insulin for cats, after you give the shot ,Glargine usually takes effect @+2
I would suggest getting a test in @+2, +4 and +6 both AM and PM
Each day you want to test at different times like one day test at what I mentioned above ,the the next day test @+3, +5 and +7
Mix them up each day, like filling in pieces of a puzzle

Your vet having you start at 3 units was high , we usually start with 0.5 or 1 unit
We adjust the dose by 0.25 units at a time and we don't go by the pre shot numbers to see how much insulin to give ,we adjust the dose by the nadir the lowest point during the cycle
Do you know how many carbs are in the wet food you are feeding?
What flavors are you feeding or is there only the pea and rabbit flavor?
Sorry Mom was hospitalized for 3 days do to a hypo
I don't know what other wet foods to suggest for your hypo kit to bring Momo's numbers up if needed since you can only feed what you are feeding now due to her IBD and chronic pancreatitis.
Maybe some more experienced members can give you some suggestions
For now always have some honey or Karo syrup on hand.

It's great that you work from home .
I see after you finish the Alpha Trak Strips you might want to swap to a human meter ,that's what our numbers are based on anyway
I can suggest one when you are ready or if you want to know now just ask
Do you feed Momo during each cycle, We usually feed our catsva small snack several times maybe @+2, +4 , a lot of members will feed more than that
One thing you need to add to your signature is Glargine and IBD/Chronic Pancreatitis . Tap in your name up top then tap in signature and add them.
Great job setting your SS up already
I'm going to tag a few experienced members for you about the dose
If it wasn't for the experienced members here giving me advice I know that Tyler wouldn't be in remission since 1-24-21
Have you read the yellow stickys about Glargine and especially the 2 dosing methods to chose one. They will let you know when to either increase or decrease.
When you decided please add it to your signature and SS up top

Here is the link so you can read about Lantus/ Glargine
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-levemir-biosimilars.9/

Hi Diane and Tyler!

As far as the high insulin starting point goes, our primary care vet referred us to an internal medicine specialist for Momo's initial diagnosis since the combination of everything going on with IBD was a bit much for them. After the diagnosis, we were then told to work with the primary care vet for ongoing diabetes management. When I mentioned the 3 unit dose to the internal med vet, she reacted with "oh wow, that is a lot... I would have started at 1 unit". :facepalm: The differing advice from the two vets has been frustrating.

I'm not sure how many carbs are in the wet food specifically and I haven't been able to find much about it online. It's definitely having an impact on lowering Momo's BG numbers though. As far as I know the pea and duck is the only flavor since we're trying a novel protein food, so introducing a different protein could irritate her IBD. We are planning to keep the HP kibble on hand for a high-carb food since she can eat that and we stocked up when we thought it was the only thing we could feed her at the time. I'll get some Karo syrup too!

We typically only feed Momo twice a day as the internal med vet recommended smaller feeding windows to help align with the insulin administration. Before the diagnosis, we were feeding 4 small meals a day to reduce hunger and promote weight loss.

Thank you for all of the info! I started reading the dosing methods thread, but wasn't sure how I could apply those with readings from a pet meter. I would love your suggestions for a human meter! It's been tough to parse through BG advice with having the pet meter numbers, so I may end up switching early and keeping the AlphaTrak on hand as a back up.

Congrats on getting Tyler into remission. :) That has to feel great for both of you!

Edit: one additional question... do you typically get the PM readings throughout the night? I feel like setting three alarms to wake up and test would wreak havoc on my sleep, but I don't want to miss any vital data that would help us better manage everything.
 
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Welcome to FDMB! And thank you for already having a signature and spreadsheet set up.

I have a couple of observations. Most dry food is way high in carbohydrates. The Royal Canin is 44% carb and the Z/D is 47% carb. We consider a low carb diet for feline diabetes to be less than 10% carb and most of the members here feed a diet that's in the neighborhood of 5%. While you can certainly manage Momo's insulin around the IBD, I suspect the very high carb diet is at least in part what's contributing to the difficulty you're having with insulin since glargine is a very good insulin for managing your cat's diabetes. Not to put too fine a point on it, what you're feeding Momo is like giving a diabetic a steady diet of ice cream and candy.

I'd encourage you to take a look at this website on Raw Feeding for IBD Cats. I'm not necessarily suggesting you switch to a raw diet (although my IBD cat has done exceptionally well on a mostly raw diet) but the site is a wealth of information about IBD. The group also has a Facebook page where they will answer questions. If your vet didn't think to tell you, most IBD cats do well on a diet of novel proteins. For example, venison, rabbit, lamb, or even pork or kangaroo may help to manage the IBD. IBD acts almost like an allergy to some of the more common proteins and can cause vomiting and other GI issues. Novel proteins don't do this.

With glargine, consistency is a key issue. You may want to take a look at the sticky notes at the top of the Lantus (glargine) board if you've not done so already. Glargine works differently than most insulin in that it is a depot type of insulin. If you make changes in the dose, you need to give the new dose a chance to stabilize otherwise you end up with wonky numbers. You don't necessarily adjust the dose based on pre-shot numbers. Dose changes are made based on how low the dose takes your cat's test numbers. As an example, the 64 would indicate you need to reduce Momo's dose by 0.25u.

Please let us know how we can help. The members here are very generous with their time and knowledge.

Thanks Sienne and Gabby! Looking forward to using all of the information here to better manage Momo's blood sugar.

I appreciate the info about the dry food. I'll take a look at the raw feeding page as well! I'm not sure if we're ready to make that leap, but we did just start Momo on a novel protein food this week (Royal Canin Select Protein Pea and Duck) and she seems to be responding well both from an IBD and a diabetes standpoint.

For the insulin dose, would it make sense to start Momo on a consistent 1u for AM and PM for a while and monitor closely given all the recent changes? The 1.5u definitely feels like it's too high given that we just swapped her over to wet food.
 
I think 1.0u sounds safe. Stick with the dose for a minimum of 3 days to stabilize the depot. In the meantime, please read the sticky note on the Lantus board on dosing strategies. We have 2 dosing methods -- Tight Regulation and Start Low Go Slow. You'll want to think about which method will work best for you and Momo.

The Pea & Duck is low carb (about 6%) based on the guaranteed analysis. You really need the "as fed" values to know the carb content, though. However, there's a consideration based on the ingredients. For IBD cats, you want to be careful and try to avoid foods that contain carrageenan and gums (e.g., guar gum) as they are not great for cats with GI problems. The Royal Canin contains carrageenan. It also contains my favorite filler -- powdered cellulose. That's the polite name for sawdust.

This is a link to a very good site on feline nutrition that's authored by a vet. On the navigation bar on the right side of the page, there's a link to a food chart. The chart contains information on the carb counts and other data for most of the canned cat foods available in the US. The site also has information on making your own raw or partially cooked food. I do not buy all of the individual supplements. There are pre-mixes available. These are powders that you mix with water and add to the food in order to ensure that what you're feeding your cat is nutritionally complete. There are some supplements that are critical to a cat's diet. I use a product called EZComplete from a company called FoodFurLife.


If you're trying to source novel proteins, I'd suggest doing a search on the Chewy's website. You can enter in the specifics (e.g., cat food, canned foods, and then indicate the protein) and it will give you a list of what they stock. If you have a good store locally for cat food, you can get a couple of cans to see if Momo likes the food before buying a case. Sometimes, if you contact the manufacturer they will also send you samples.
 
Hi and welcome!

you already got a ton of great info but as the mom of 2 cats with IBD, I wanted to chime in as well :cat:

feeding only twice a day is not good for the IBD at all or for the diabetes. This is something that works for dogs who have a much lower metabolism than cats. It’s old fashioned advice when it comes to the diabetes to feed only twice a day. It’s much easier on their already compromised pancreas to be fed the 2 larger meals at shot times and then smaller meals throughout the day. It also helps avoid big sugar spikes. Minnie started doing much better also once I started giving her an overnight snack at around +6. Going for too long without food can cause the IBD to flare up and they tend to vomit more, especially in the mornings on an empty stomach because they’ve gone without food for too long. You don’t want them to go without food for more than 5-6 hours at the most. Smaller meals can be a smaller amount of the regular food you’re already feeding or low carb treats.

I didn’t know anything about felines diabetes so Minnie unfortunately, had to suffer as I learned my way through it and eventually found this place! It’s not an overstatement to say this forum and its members saved her life more than once! She was at one point put on budesonide, which is suppose to be better than pred because it’s localized and it should not in theory spread to the rest of the body. She was already diabetic for a while so I wasn’t trying to get her in remission. I did notice her numbers went up once she was on it and she needed a higher dose of insulin to get regulated again. Luckily, when it came to food, she did fine once I removed all beef.

Fast forward to Bobo this year and as his IBD worsened, his IM put him on budesonide. A month later he became diabetic. This time I knew what to do and I was able to taper off the budesonide and eventually got him into remission. This is all to say that if they bring up budesonide, take it with a grain of salt and just know it could bump up her numbers.

Minnie was on the SLGS protocol and Bobo on TR because I wanted to be more aggressive with him, he handles testing much better and my goal was to get him in remission. Feel free to take a look at both spreadsheets linked in my signature. Consistency in timing and dosing is key to get them regulated. Dose adjustments by 1/4 units are also much more efficient.
 
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Thank you for all of the info! I started reading the dosing methods thread, but wasn't sure how I could apply those with readings from a pet meter.
@tiffmaxee
@Sienne and Gabby (GA)

Hi ladies as you know Robins kitty is on Glargine and using the Alpha Trak
She was reading the 2 dosings methods feeding lc , but if she needs to bring Mono"s BG up she will use the HP Kibble or Karo
Obviously she will have to follow the SLGS method because of the kibble
When using the pet meter would she still take the reduction if he drops under 90

Thank you ladies

@MomoAndRobin
 
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. I would love your suggestions for a human meter! It's been tough to parse through BG advice with having the pet meter numbers, so I may end up switching early and keeping the AlphaTrak on hand as a back up.


Here is the link for the meter and test strips so you don't have to search for them
Relion Premier Classic Meter at Walmart for 9 dollars
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-CLASSIC-Blood-Glucose-Monitoring-System/552134103

The tests strips are 17.88 for 100
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-Blood-Glucose-Test-Strips-100-Count/575088197
You can order them on line also
@MomoAndRobin
 
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Edit: one additional question... do you typically get the PM readings throughout the night? I feel like setting three alarms to wake up and test would wreak havoc on my sleep, but I don't want to miss any vital data that would help us better manage everything.
If the +2 is much lower than the PMPS number you will have to get another test to see if it's coming up
 
If the +2 is much lower than the PMPS number you will have to get another test to see if it's coming up
This is why you want to test at +2 and if numbers are going up from pmps, you can go to sleep because it will likely be a normal cycle. If that number is going down from the pmps, it means it will be an active cycle and it would be a good idea to try to get a +3 or +4 to make sure your cat is not dropping too much and if he does, you can intervene with food.
 
! I started reading the dosing methods thread, but wasn't sure how I could apply those with readings from a pet meter.
Just so you don't miss this take a look at post #13 Christie answered your question. Post numbers are to the right of each post

Look at post #15 I had asked what the take action number would be on the pet meter and she replied back
@MomoAndRobin

Take action or time to act means you have to feed a couple tablespoons of your lc food and of course get another test in to see if his BG comes .
If it's very early in the cycle if this happens we usually suggest feeding high carb as far as I know ,then test again in about 20 minutes
Always post and ask for help
 
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