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Thanks for the info, Sharon. I know better where you are now.

Next question - please answer ASAP:

When you insert a test strip into your BG meter does it switch the meter on?

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Update on Bella, @ 6am I gave her 2 units Novolin, @ +2 her BG was 308, @ +4 her BG was 538, @ +6.5 BG was 376. Her new vet wanted to up her doseage from 2 units to 4 units a day. I had read/heard Novolin doesn't last the whole 12 hr & was wondering to maybe smooth out the peaks, to give 1 unit every 8 hrs. I was told YES, so at + 8, I was planning on giving here another 1.5 units & then in another +8 give her another 1 unit. I hope this makes since on what im wanting to do, still trying to learn the lingo. Basically giving her 2 units first thing in the morning & the every 8 hours give her 1 unit. I had Chris Ronkoski start & update the spreadsheet for me BUT bc I didn't have the Google App when I signed into it didn't know my password from 50 yrs ago, it would take a couple of days to be able to use it.
 
I'm up to my ears in low runs at the moment, Jeanne.

Sharon,

8-hourly insulin dosing is not an avenue I'd pursue with my own cat, doubly so with a harsh, fast-dropping insulin like Novolin N. Other members may have a different view. I'm not sure which members can assist with Novolin N but I'm tagging a couple in the hope that they'll be able to give you more input on this or point you in the direction of someone who can help you further.

@JanetNJ
@Wendy&Neko

In the meantime it would be helpful if you could post what the vet had to say about Bella's vomiting and refusal to eat. In particular, did you find out whether Bella's negative for ketones?


Mogs
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NO. Stick to every 12 hours please! NPH is one nasty insulin to use. I'm sorry I can't stay or read the thread atm but no early shots, no increases until an experienced member can say otherwise.
 
Rushing through the thread.
No to 8-hour dosing. It is only for very experienced users with someone to stay with them and monitor closely.

Two other things stick out.
1. Just set up a new Google email account. Faster than waiting for Mr. Google to respond to you.
Once you have the account, you can access the drive.
Ask Chris or Bandit's Mom to set up a new spreadsheet or change the email on the spreadsheet already set up.Once you have the account, you can access the drive.
2. The vet saying that he has been at this 30 years and wants you to stick with Novolin tells me that he is not up-to-date on current feline diabetes practice. I'd try a third vet. Call around. Ask whoever answers the phone what their preferred insulin for cats is.
 
Her new vet wanted to up her doseage from 2 units to 4 units a day.
No no no. Cats are tiny little things, it does not take much insulin to have a big effect, even down to one drop vs two. We do not raise faster than 0.25 units at a time, after 7 days have passed. There is no fast-tracking, and it's very dangerous with NPH to do so.

I had read/heard Novolin doesn't last the whole 12 hr & was wondering to maybe smooth out the peaks, to give 1 unit every 8 hrs.
Not how it works unfortunately. The dose determines how low BG drops in the cycle. If you dose 2 units and it takes it down to 100 BG, it will drop, then go back up. If you then dose 1 unit (because it's up sooner than you wanted) it will only drop to 300, then go back up. This is COMPLETELY hypothetical numbers, but what I mean is your cat needs a certain amount of insulin to hit 100 BG. It could be 1 unit, 2, whatever. But spreading the dose out throughout the day does not keep them in the numbers you want. Does that make sense?

The ONLY thing that's going to fix the duration problem is switching to a long-lasting insulin. Lantus, as you know. I would bring up the 2018 AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats to your vet, even if they're going to be stubborn about it. They can't argue with a published paper by the American Animals Hospital Association like they can some internet strangers! :p The AAHA states that only Prozinc or Lantus/Levemir are recommended for felines - you'll find NPH over in the canine section. In fact you may search around your area to see if there's an AAHA-accredited vet clinic? I absolutely hate NPH use in cats, it is really bad for their systems. Some kitties get lucky and go into remission on it (like Jeanne's Trouble) but that is very very rare and I almost want to say those cats were probably near remission to begin with, but that might be me exaggerating.

Once we see all your numbers we can help you with a dose, but for now please please don't increase!

Some more things about NPH if you haven't been informed:

  • Test, feed, wait 60 minutes, THEN give insulin. Food MUST be on board when using NPH, it hits that hard and that fast.
  • Do NOT give insulin if pre-shot is below 250. There is no wiggle room here unfortunately.
  • Do not let BG drop below 100-120. If she does, feed gravy food and post on Main Health for assistance! Use a 911 tag if you have to, they can guide you back up over 100.
  • Please test 1 hour after giving insulin. NPH will take effect quickly, dip REALLY low, then spring up right afterwards. A lot of times the low numbers only occur within the first 3 or so hours, so if you're not testing and checking early on you won't even see the effect taking place.
  • Give food every hour (starting 1 hour after insulin) for at least 4 hours. You can use an autofeeder to achieve this.
  • Ideally test every hour until she starts heading up again. This doesn't work for most people so just another reason to switch to a feline-appropriate insulin ASAP.
  • Everything I've said above applies to both the AM and PM cycle - food, testing, etc.
 
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No no no. Cats are tiny little things, it does not take much insulin to have a big effect, even down to one drop vs two. We do not raise faster than 0.25 units at a time, after 7 days have passed. There is no fast-tracking, and it's very dangerous with NPH to do so.


Not how it works unfortunately. The dose determines how low BG drops in the cycle. If you dose 2 units and it takes it down to 100 BG, it will drop, then go back up. If you then dose 1 unit (because it's up sooner than you wanted) it will only drop to 300, then go back up. This is COMPLETELY hypothetical numbers, but what I mean is your cat needs a certain amount of insulin to hit 100 BG. It could be 1 unit, 2, whatever. But spreading the dose out throughout the day does not keep them in the numbers you want. Does that make sense?

The ONLY thing that's going to fix the duration problem is switching to a long-lasting insulin. Lantus, as you know. I would bring up the 2018 AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats to your vet, even if they're going to be stubborn about it. They can't argue with a published paper by the American Animals Hospital Association like they can some internet strangers! :p The AAHA states that only Prozinc or Lantus/Levemir are recommended for felines - you'll find NPH over in the canine section. In fact you may search around your area to see if there's an AAHA-accredited vet clinic? I absolutely hate NPH use in cats, it is really bad for their systems. Some kitties get lucky and go into remission on it (like Jeanne's Trouble) but that is very very rare and I almost want to say those cats were probably near remission to begin with, but that might be me exaggerating.

Once we see all your numbers we can help you with a dose, but for now please please don't increase!

Some more things about NPH if you haven't been informed:

  • Test, feed, wait 60 minutes, THEN give insulin. Food MUST be on board when using NPH, it hits that hard and that fast.
  • Do NOT give insulin if pre-shot is below 250. There is no wiggle room here unfortunately.
  • Do not let BG drop below 100-120. If she does, feed gravy food and post on Main Health for assistance! Use a 911 tag if you have to, they can guide you back up over 100.
  • Please test 1 hour after giving insulin. NPH will take effect quickly, dip REALLY low, then spring up right afterwards. A lot of times the low numbers only occur within the first 3 or so hours, so if you're not testing and checking early on you won't even see the effect taking place.
  • Give food every hour (starting 1 hour after insulin) for at least 4 hours. You can use an autofeeder to achieve this.
  • Ideally test every hour until she starts heading up again. This doesn't work for most people so just another reason to switch to a feline-appropriate insulin ASAP.
  • Everything I've said above applies to both the AM and PM cycle - food, testing, etc.
I wish I could find a vet near me me that knows what they’re doing!!! I go back Monday to recheck after supposedly doubling insulin but I only increased .5, so instead of 2 units a day she’s getting 3. This mornings BG @ 6:45 was 236 & then @ +4.5 it was 536 I’m gonna try to really stress the importance of getting Lantus once again!! Thank you for your help
 
Sharon I know we've been harping on you about this but PLEASE consider setting up your spreadsheet. Its only going to serve you.
FDMB SPREADSHEET INSTRUCTIONS

I am the WORST with tech stuff. I get confused just looking at a keyboard. :oops:

A spreadsheet helps everyone help you quicker and more efficiently.

If youre anything like me (I would be hesitant too) just ask Chris and China OR Bandits mom will do all the work for you. Just let us know and we can get this done.:(
jeanne
 
Sharon I know we've been harping on you about this but PLEASE consider setting up your spreadsheet. Its only going to serve you.
FDMB SPREADSHEET INSTRUCTIONS Chris has graciously already set one up for me & is even updating it for me. It’s not that I’m slacking, I went to get the google spreadsheet app and bc I had forgotten my pw for 15 years ago it’s taking days to get a new one from Google. I don’t understand why it’s taking so long. But yesterday her numbers were 5:45AM HI, 6AM 2 units of Novolin, bg 308 +2, bg 538 +4, bg 376 +4.5, 2PM 1 unit insulin, bg 289 +1.5, bg HI +4, .5 unit @ +12.5 & bg 261 +4.5. I gave her insulin 3x that day trying to keep her numbers down, it was a suggestion, please, I realized it didn’t work. SATURDAY 10/10/20 6:45AM BG 366, 1.5 insulin Novolin 7:15AM, BG 564 +4.5, BG 558 +11.5, 1.5 insulin +12, BG HI +2.5. We had my grandsons birthday party yesterday so that’s why her numbers didn’t get checked much. Sunday 10/11/20 BG 397 6:30AM, 1.5 insulin 6:35, she had already ate at 6AM & I forgot to take it before she ate. I take her back tomorrow to the vet again for another check up bc he wanted to double her insulin & I didn’t do it, I went from 1 unit 2x day to 1.5units 2x day. I’m trying guys, I truly am, it’s just Google isn’t working with me to get the spreadsheet app. Chris is being an angel working with me behind the scenes. Thank y’all for ALLLLLLL your help!!! ❤️❤️

I am the WORST with tech stuff. I get confused just looking at a keyboard. :oops:

A spreadsheet helps everyone help you quicker and more efficiently.

If youre anything like me (I would be hesitant too) just ask Chris and China OR Bandits mom will do all the work for you. Just let us know and we can get this done.:(
jeanne
 
Oh my goodness I didnt mean to stress you out ! I truly apologize! Sigh thats the LAST thing you need. I AM very sorry.
jeanne
Oh no ma’am I’m sorry if it came across that way, I just took her BG before leaving for church at +1.5 & the meter said HI it’s been more HI since I’ve increased her insulin Novolin from 2units to 3 units a day. I have even looked for Bella’s spreadsheet but can’t find it either but I’m new & probably not looking in the right spot. I’m still learning where things are. Thank you dear for your help!!
 
It would benefit her to not increase the dose, especially it being NPH. No increase is going to fix high pre-shots, the insulin has simply run out long before. You need a new insulin.

Please stop increasing the dose, you're not doing her any favors by doing so.
 
It would benefit her to not increase the dose, especially it being NPH. No increase is going to fix high pre-shots, the insulin has simply run out long before. You need a new insulin.

Please stop increasing the dose, you're not doing her any favors by doing so.
I’m trying but can’t find a vet to prescribe her any, going to call around tomorrow if vet won’t give me a prescription. They’re all closed yesterday and today
 
Oh LoL Bella’s numbers for today is BG 397 6:30AM, 1.5 unit Novolin 6:30, BG HI +1.5, BG 512 +6.5, BG 335 +12, 1.5 units 12.5. The reason I gave her 1st shot was bc she woke me up at 2:15am & 5:45am wanting to eat. She has been super thirsty today and I’ve been adding at least 1/2 water to her 3oz ff. She’s had a total of 5 cans of ff so far today in 12 hrs and I’ll give her another before we go to bed. Am I feeding her too much?? She only weighs 6lbs & is really skinny. Thank y’all for your continued help & support ❤️
 
Feed her as much as she wants, an unregulated diabetic needs double the amount of a normal cat. Since she's skinny don't limit the food, she won't gain the weight until her BG gets in check.
 
But it’s hard to get a AMPS & PMPS with her wanting to eat all the time. I’ve also add 1/8 teaspoon of Miralax with her meal bc her stool is really hard & has bled on some BM’s.
 
Hi Sharon,

I'm so sorry you're having such difficulty finding a vet to prescribe a cat-suitable insulin. :bighug:

Here is an extremely helpful document:

2018 AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats

The whole document is very much worth reading, but for now I recommend you look at Table 1, which provides an at-a-glance summary of which insulins are appropriate to which species. Note that Novolin N is only recommended for use in dogs, not cats.

The text of the document goes further into the reasons why insulins like Lantus and Prozinc are suitable choices for treatment of feline diabetics.

I wonder whether it might be a help to you to print off a copy of the above document and to discuss its contents with some vet in your area whose treatment approach is somewhat more progressive. The document is the work of veterinary professionals, has been published in a respected journal, and therefore cannot be dismissed as something you heard from some crazy cat people on the internet. Reference to the AAHA guidelines should rightly lend greater validity to your request that Bella be treated with Lantus.

I'm sorry my previous reply to you was quite brief. I'm struggling with a really bad cold at the moment and I was absolutely exhausted at the time of posting.

I get the sense from your posts that high numbers BG numbers are quite unsettling for you (understandable), so there are a couple of thoughts I'd like to share with you:

1. Many cats have very high BG levels when they are first diagnosed. While we don't want to see our cats in high numbers, it's when a cat goes too low that there is immediate danger. This is why starting doses should be conservative. Time is needed to determine how the cat responds to the insulin being used.Thereafter, with appropriate monitoring (preshot/mid-cycle checks, BG curves) the dose can be gradually increased in small increments over a period of time to a level where the cat becomes regulated.

2. Just as the diabetes took time to develop, bringing a diabetic cat back into regulated numbers is a gradual process. It's not something that can be forced: the cat's body needs time to relearn how to run at a healthy blood glucose level. Trying to force the body back into better numbers by too aggressively increasing the insulin dose - or giving insulin more frequently - typically serves to put the cat at greater risk of hypoglycaemic episodes and, even if BG doesn't drop into dangerously low numbers, the drop itself may trigger the cat's bodily defence mechanisms to release stored sugars and synthesise more in the liver in order to protect the cat. You will often see this phenomenon described here as 'bouncing'. During a bounce, BG levels may go very high before dropping back down to 'pre-bounce' levels. In some cats it can take as many as 6 cycles (3 days) for a bounce to clear.

The idea behind the 'Start Low, Go Slow' dosing methods advocated here is to gradually and safely bring the cat back into a healthier blood glucose range by starting on a dose determined to be safe, holding it for a fixed number of days (unless the dose takes the cat too low, in which case the dose is immediately reduced), assessing the safety and efficacy of the dose, then adjusting the dose by a small increment if required. Rinse 'n' repeat until the cat comes into a better range. As treatment progresses, the cat's body steadily gets used to (safe) lower, healthy numbers.

On 8-hourly (TID) dosing of Novolin, as others above have already commented above, while it is possible to do, it is an advanced technique and, IMO, one that would require a reasonable degree of experience using insuiln before even attempting such a treatment method. It requires a lot of testing to keep the cat safe (preshot checks before all three daily doses, mid-cycle checks on all three cycles to make sure the cat is not going too low, possibly intensive testing and feeding throughout the peak of a cycle if the cat goes too low and needs to be steered back up to safe numbers). I've only seen a bare handful of members attempt TID dosing since I joined FDMB and all of them ended up exhausted - both physically and emotionally - within a very short space of time. They were using Vetsulin, which isn't as harsh as Novolin N, and even that was extremely challenging. To the best of my memory, they were only able to stick with the TID dosing schedule for a very short time before electing to revert back to giving insulin twice a day. As I commented earlier, it really isn't a treatment approach I would recommend, not least of all because availability of longer-acting insulins effectively removes the need to even consider TID dosing.

I can completely understand your impatience to see Bella regulated - we all feel like that! ;) - but bringing a feline diabetic into regulation is a marathon, not a sprint. I sincerely hope that you will very soon be able to find a vet who is willing to prescribe a longer-acting insulin for Bella, and I hope you find some of the above helpful to you. :)


Mogs
.
 
I
Hi Sharon,

I'm so sorry you're having such difficulty finding a vet to prescribe a cat-suitable insulin. :bighug:

Here is an extremely helpful document:

2018 AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats

The whole document is very much worth reading, but for now I recommend you look at Table 1, which provides an at-a-glance summary of which insulins are appropriate to which species. Note that Novolin N is only recommended for use in dogs, not cats.

The text of the document goes further into the reasons why insulins like Lantus and Prozinc are suitable choices for treatment of feline diabetics.

I wonder whether it might be a help to you to print off a copy of the above document and to discuss its contents with some vet in your area whose treatment approach is somewhat more progressive. The document is the work of veterinary professionals, has been published in a respected journal, and therefore cannot be dismissed as something you heard from some crazy cat people on the internet. Reference to the AAHA guidelines should rightly lend greater validity to your request that Bella be treated with Lantus.

I'm sorry my previous reply to you was quite brief. I'm struggling with a really bad cold at the moment and I was absolutely exhausted at the time of posting.

I get the sense from your posts that high numbers BG numbers are quite unsettling for you (understandable), so there are a couple of thoughts I'd like to share with you:

1. Many cats have very high BG levels when they are first diagnosed. While we don't want to see our cats in high numbers, it's when a cat goes too low that there is immediate danger. This is why starting doses should be conservative. Time is needed to determine how the cat responds to the insulin being used.Thereafter, with appropriate monitoring (preshot/mid-cycle checks, BG curves) the dose can be gradually increased in small increments over a period of time to a level where the cat becomes regulated.

2. Just as the diabetes took time to develop, bringing a diabetic cat back into regulated numbers is a gradual process. It's not something that can be forced: the cat's body needs time to relearn how to run at a healthy blood glucose level. Trying to force the body back into better numbers by too aggressively increasing the insulin dose - or giving insulin more frequently - typically serves to put the cat at greater risk of hypoglycaemic episodes and, even if BG doesn't drop into dangerously low numbers, the drop itself may trigger the cat's bodily defence mechanisms to release stored sugars and synthesise more in the liver in order to protect the cat. You will often see this phenomenon described here as 'bouncing'. During a bounce, BG levels may go very high before dropping back down to 'pre-bounce' levels. In some cats it can take as many as 6 cycles (3 days) for a bounce to clear.

The idea behind the 'Start Low, Go Slow' dosing methods advocated here is to gradually and safely bring the cat back into a healthier blood glucose range by starting on a dose determined to be safe, holding it for a fixed number of days (unless the dose takes the cat too low, in which case the dose is immediately reduced), assessing the safety and efficacy of the dose, then adjusting the dose by a small increment if required. Rinse 'n' repeat until the cat comes into a better range. As treatment progresses, the cat's body steadily gets used to (safe) lower, healthy numbers.

On 8-hourly (TID) dosing of Novolin, as others above have already commented above, while it is possible to do, it is an advanced technique and, IMO, one that would require a reasonable degree of experience using insuiln before even attempting such a treatment method. It requires a lot of testing to keep the cat safe (preshot checks before all three daily doses, mid-cycle checks on all three cycles to make sure the cat is not going too low, possibly intensive testing and feeding throughout the peak of a cycle if the cat goes too low and needs to be steered back up to safe numbers). I've only seen a bare handful of members attempt TID dosing since I joined FDMB and all of them ended up exhausted - both physically and emotionally - within a very short space of time. They were using Vetsulin, which isn't as harsh as Novolin N, and even that was extremely challenging. To the best of my memory, they were only able to stick with the TID dosing schedule for a very short time before electing to revert back to giving insulin twice a day. As I commented earlier, it really isn't a treatment approach I would recommend, not least of all because availability of longer-acting insulins effectively removes the need to even consider TID dosing.

I can completely understand your impatience to see Bella regulated - we all feel like that! ;) - but bringing a feline diabetic into regulation is a marathon, not a sprint. I sincerely hope that you will very soon be able to find a vet who is willing to prescribe a longer-acting insulin for Bella, and I hope you find some of the above helpful to you. :)


Mogs
.
took Bella back this morning and she’s gained 1/2lb or had a really full bladder LoL BUT HE FINALLY AGREE TO GIVE LANTUS A TRY!!! But today is Canada’s Thanksgiving so we’re still looking at a week before I get it, but it’s a start!! Thank you LORD!!!
 
I

took Bella back this morning and she’s gained 1/2lb or had a really full bladder LoL BUT HE FINALLY AGREE TO GIVE LANTUS A TRY!!! But today is Canada’s Thanksgiving so we’re still looking at a week before I get it, but it’s a start!! Thank you LORD!!!
By request I have started a new thread, Panic, I tagged you in it but left the option open for anyone to reply. Thank y’all for your help
 
Go to the top of the health forum page. All the way to the right just under the dark blue banner there a box that says Post New Thread .
Just click that box. You can add "continued" to your title and add the link to this thread in your new thread.
good luck! I'm leaving for a while . Need an xray BBL:bighug:
I started a new one, thank you & praying your X-ray is good
 
You sent me a personal message, no new thread though! Perhaps someone can take some screenshots to help you figure it out (I'm currently on the road). :)
 
Hi Sharon,

Here's a screen snapshot of the top of the Feline Health board.


upload_2020-10-12_22-23-51.png




I've circled the "Post New Thread" button in red.

If you click on that button, it will start a new discussion thread for you.


(Contd./...)

.
 

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(.../Contd.)

After you've clicked on the 'Post New Thread' button, the following screen will display next:


upload_2020-10-12_22-30-11.png



I've indicated in the screen snapshot above where to put the thread topic and where to start typing your next post (see the red text in the picture above).

When you've finished typing your post, look below the text entry box and click on the 'Create Thread' button (circled in red in picture below):



upload_2020-10-12_22-34-4.png



You'll then be taken back to the Feline Health board and your new thread should now be visible in the list of topics.


Mogs
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Thank you!! Yours is a little different from mine but I wrote down the steps to get there LoL sorry I tagged you in a pm, hope the X-ray turned out good.
 
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