New Member asking for help

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Hresko

Hresko

Member Since 2020
Hello All!

I am a new member searching for some guidance. I have a 13 year old male cat who is struggling with pancreatitis and diabetes. He was diagnosed about a year ago with a urinary tract infection, pancreatitis and diabetes. He was put on Lantus beginning with 1 unit two times a day and given antibiotics. Every few weeks we would test his blood levels and they were not getting any better and they kept increasing his dosage until he go up to 7 units twice a day and his levels were higher than the first day we took him to the vet. I read on here that he could possibly getting too much insulin so I lowered him to 4 units a day and for a few weeks he was absolutely doing better. He was much more active and we noticed a difference. After almost $2,000 in vet bills the vet recommends that we take him to an Internist because she doesn't believe she can do anything for him. I'm not willing to do that because that's not how I want him spending his days.

Does anyone have any recommendations? I'm thinking about switching his insulin to the Walmart brand that humans use without a prescription or trying another type. My vet said Lantus is the only type of medicine they are trained in using on cats.

I have all his readings if t will help. His last reading on 7 units 2 times a day was 571 - 426.
 
Your vet is right. Stay on lantus.

We need to see more numbers. A few weeks worth would be awesome!
 
Thank you. Here you go these numbers are over a long period of time since she only wanted us taking them every few weeks:

April 1, 2020 2 units twice a day readings taken right before breakfast and an hour after dinner

496, 354, 309, 224, 474

April 13, 2020 2 units same schedule

475, 421, 411, 424, 439

April 29, 2020 3 units same schedule

406, 398, 389, 376, 388

May 19, 2020 /4 units same schedule

498, 369, 504, 389, 548

June 5, 2020 /5 units same schedule

391, 417, 329, 297, 441

June 19, 2020 /6 units same schedule

449, 453, 300, 390, 427

August 20 /6 units same schedule

504, 418, 329, 237, 374

September 23 /7 units same schedule

571, 542, 570, 493, 426

October 21, 2020/4 units same schedule

457, 362, 338, 467, 517

We feed only Fancy Feast Classic canned food.

Thank you so much for any guidance you can send my way.
 
Hi and welcome to FDMB. We can help you with managing your cat's diabetes.

Lantus is a good insulin, however, unless there are other health issues, 4 units is still probably too much.

Can you tell us what you feed your cat? Is it canned food, dry food, raw food or a combination? Diet contributes significantly to managing FD. Cats do much better on a low carb or canned food diet. However, before you change his diet, you will also need to lower his dose and also plan on home testing. Switching to a low carb diet can significantly drop glucose levels, so without changing the dose, you risk your cat becoming hypoglycemic.

Home testing means testing your cat's glucose levels before every shot to verify it is safe to give the dose and determine if a dose change is needed. You can use either a human glucose meter or a pet glucose meter. They both work well, but the costs of using a human meter is less expensive and the test strips are more readily available. We can help you learn how to test.

Are the readings you posted above from home testing or the readings from the vet's testing?
 
Thank you for your reply

We feed Fancy Feasts Classic Canned cat food and occasionally baked chicken.

The first reading he had was at the vets in March 2020 an was around 450. All the readings that you see above are taken at home with a pet meter.

The vet had us take the above readings right before breakfast, then every three hours and one after dinner.
 
Thanks. Are you feeding the Fancy Feast Pate flavors or bits, shreds, or flakes? Pate flavors are lower in carbs than anything with gravy in it.

Also, we recommend that you should start testing everyday before every shot. The order is test, feed then shoot. This also includes the reading at dinner time. This is the best way to tell how well the dose is working and if it is safe to give the insulin.

When the dose was increased, was it increased by whole units or in small increments? Most cats only need between 1-2 units twice a day. If an increase is needed, it is increased by 1/4 to 1/2 unit at a time and at least a week is needed between dose changes to give the body time to adjust to it. If it was increase by 1 or more units at a time, you may have missed your optimal dose.
 
We feed him only the pate and tuna/shrimp flaked which that said is low in carbs.

When the dose was increased it was always in one whole unit increments and had check the blood levels every two weeks so basically we started at 1 unit twice a day and kept going up another unit every couple of weeks.

I can test him before each shot. He's currently getting 5 units twice daily. Do you recommend I lower that and if so to how many units?

Thank you so much I really appreciate your help. I don't what else to do at this point.
 
  • when you get a chance ,It would be helpful if you can set up your signature so we don't have to ask you the same questions over again.
  • It appears after each post in gray, look at mine, also take a look at Tyler's spreadsheet to get an idea of what I explained above



  • On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature. This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
    • There is a limit of two lines which may include two links; you may separate pieces with commas, dashes, | etc. This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
    • Add any other text, such as
    • Caregiver & kitty's name (optional)
    • DX: Date
    • Name of Insulin
    • Name of your meter
    • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
    • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
    • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
    • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
    • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
    • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.
Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.


tap on your avatar where it says your name ,then hit profile page ,tap on that ,then go up to the very top, upper right hand side and tap on your name ,it will bring down a drop box, tap on signature, the signature will be under settings, tap on the signature then and you can start to add what I posted above, make sure you hit save ,
Welcome to the best place you could ever be and an awesome group of people
 
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

You might like to set up a spreadsheet we all use to track our cats BG so that
members here can look at it in order to give you advice on dosage.

If you have trouble setting it up let us know , we have two wonderful members here that will set it up for you.

I will post the link that will explain what it all means.
You can take a look at Tyler's , its says Tyler's Spreadsheet at end of my post.
You can also look at any other members spreadsheet.
 
Hi Ladies trying to tag members who might be able to give @Hresko
some advice

@Deb & Wink

@Chris & China (GA)

@Wendy&Neko


She said she in her post above

I am a new member searching for some guidance. I have a 13 year old male cat who is struggling with pancreatitis and diabetes. He was diagnosed about a year ago with a urinary tract infection, pancreatitis and diabetes.

Guess it's probably best to read her posts.
Thank you ladies :bighug::cat:
 
I agree with the others, stick to Lantus. The Walmart insulin you are referring to is no good for cats. I also agree with the others, we can help you. But in order to do so, we need to see more data. I am glad you are home testing, that's a good start. The next step is the spreadsheet Diane has linked. It's a very handy tool we all use to visualize how the insulin is working in your kitty. Once we see how 5 units is working with your cat, we can figure out where to go next.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I agree with the others, stick to Lantus. The Walmart insulin you are referring to is no good for cats. I also agree with the others, we can help you. But in order to do so, we need to see more data. I am glad you are home testing, that's a good start. The next step is the spreadsheet Diane has linked. It's a very handy tool we all use to visualize how the insulin is working in your kitty. Once we see how 5 units is working with your cat, we can figure out where to go next.
Click to expand...
Thank you @Wendy&Neko :cat:
 
Hresko said:
I'm thinking about switching his insulin to the Walmart brand that humans use without a prescription or trying another type.
Click to expand...
That is an NPH type insulin, that rarely last more than 6-8 hours in a cat, and is not recommended. It drops the BG levels hard and fast, and can lead to hypoglycemia.

What we can't tell from your list of BG numbers and dates, is which numbers belong to which testing times, and which numbers are for your evening (PM) test.

It's why putting your results in our standardized spreadsheet would be so helpful to see.

Since we all live in different time zones, we express the number of hours between BG tests in a + hour format. The + indicates how many hours after the pre-shot test.
So 2 hours after the pre-shot test would be +2, 4 hours after would be +4, etc.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I agree with the others, stick to Lantus. The Walmart insulin you are referring to is no good for cats. I also agree with the others, we can help you. But in order to do so, we need to see more data. I am glad you are home testing, that's a good start. The next step is the spreadsheet Diane has linked. It's a very handy tool we all use to visualize how the insulin is working in your kitty. Once we see how 5 units is working with your cat, we can figure out where to go next.
Click to expand...
I agree with Wendy to wait until we get more data. The diet is good, so there is no need to change it.

Since you are starting to test daily, I recommend that you skip the dose if the reading is below 250. This is a little higher than what we normally recommend, but since you are giving 5 units, I am concerned that his glucose levels may drop too low. If you can also test midway between shots, that will also help us determine his NADIR (lowest point the BG goes with the dose).
 
Hi Diane. I found the signature you referred to. Are you saying that all the information below (not the spreadsheet) but the other information you requested does it go into the signature area or attach to the spreadsheet?

Also, I'm struggling with the spreadsheet I don't understand it and I don't see any explanation for what the columns mean. I even asked my son to help me and he doesn't get it either.

I appreciate all of your help!



Diane Tyler's Mom said:
  • when you get a chance ,It would be helpful if you can set up your signature so we don't have to ask you the same questions over again.
  • It appears after each post in gray, look at mine, also take a look at Tyler's spreadsheet to get an idea of what I explained above


  • On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature. This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
    • There is a limit of two lines which may include two links; you may separate pieces with commas, dashes, | etc. This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
    • Add any other text, such as
    • Caregiver & kitty's name (optional)
    • DX: Date
    • Name of Insulin
    • Name of your meter
    • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
    • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
    • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
    • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
    • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
    • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.
Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.


tap on your avatar where it says your name ,then hit profile page ,tap on that ,then go up to the very top, upper right hand side and tap on your name ,it will bring down a drop box, tap on signature, the signature will be under settings, tap on the signature then and you can start to add what I posted above, make sure you hit save ,
Welcome to the best place you could ever be and an awesome group of people
Click to expand...
 
Deb & Wink said:
That is an NPH type insulin, that rarely last more than 6-8 hours in a cat, and is not recommended. It drops the BG levels hard and fast, and can lead to hypoglycemia.

What we can't tell from your list of BG numbers and dates, is which numbers belong to which testing times, and which numbers are for your evening (PM) test.

It's why putting your results in our standardized spreadsheet would be so helpful to see.

Since we all live in different time zones, we express the number of hours between BG tests in a + hour format. The + indicates how many hours after the pre-shot test.
So 2 hours after the pre-shot test would be +2, 4 hours after would be +4, etc.
Click to expand...


Thank you. I'm trying to understand the spreadsheet now.
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

You might like to set up a spreadsheet we all use to track our cats BG so that
members here can look at it in order to give you advice on dosage.

If you have trouble setting it up let us know , we have two wonderful members here that will set it up for you.

I will post the link that will explain what it all means.
You can take a look at Tyler's , its says Tyler's Spreadsheet at end of my post.
You can also look at any other members spreadsheet.
Click to expand...


Thank you I didn't see the instructions but now I do.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I agree with the others, stick to Lantus. The Walmart insulin you are referring to is no good for cats. I also agree with the others, we can help you. But in order to do so, we need to see more data. I am glad you are home testing, that's a good start. The next step is the spreadsheet Diane has linked. It's a very handy tool we all use to visualize how the insulin is working in your kitty. Once we see how 5 units is working with your cat, we can figure out where to go next.[/QUOTE
Thank you for all of your help I really do appreciate it. I have the numbers above when he was on 5 units. I'm prepared to get current numbers. Is it okay to take his blood before breakfast and dinner, feed him and give him 5 units then report the numbers? My question is do I need to take the other readings throughout the day? Also, when I do this tomorrow do you want those numbers tomorrow or do you want me to do this for two weeks and then present the numbers?
Click to expand...
 
Deb & Wink said:
That is an NPH type insulin, that rarely last more than 6-8 hours in a cat, and is not recommended. It drops the BG levels hard and fast, and can lead to hypoglycemia.

What we can't tell from your list of BG numbers and dates, is which numbers belong to which testing times, and which numbers are for your evening (PM) test.

It's why putting your results in our standardized spreadsheet would be so helpful to see.

Since we all live in different time zones, we express the number of hours between BG tests in a + hour format. The + indicates how many hours after the pre-shot test.
So 2 hours after the pre-shot test would be +2, 4 hours after would be +4, etc.
Click to expand...


Working on spreadsheet but may not get it done for a few days. I'm a therapist and I'm swamped and taking a class weekends but no excuse I will get it done. All of the numbers are based on the first reading is right before breakfast at 6:00 am and then every three hours and then the final reading is one hour after dinner and the shot at 6:00 pm
 
Do you recommend that I complete the spreadsheet after I begin this new way of testing? My readings go back 9 months so I'm not sure they are useful. Also, I forgot to mention he is a large cat weighs about 17 pounds. He's also really having a hard time right now lethargic.
 
Just the last couple weeks of test data in the spreadsheet is enough for us to see the trends. Nine months is too much of an ask! Maybe just put a not near the top when he was diagnosed and that older data is not entered.

There are some secondary endocrine conditions that cats can get that mean they need more insulin. My girl Neko had two such conditions, acromegaly - a benign pituitary tumour which sends out excess growth hormone, and IAA or insulin auto antibodies, sort of like an allergy to injected insulin. She got up to 8.75 units of Lantus, but we have cats on even higher doses. A cat needs however much insulin they need. Provided they started at a safe dose and testing was done to know that increases were safe.
 
I haven't tested in awhile. Should I give him what I've been giving him 5 units for two weeks testing him twice a day before each shot and then enter the data? I know his numbers are very high by his behavior.
 
It's also important to try to get some tests in between the shots. We determine how to change the Lantus dose based on how low the dose takes the cat. If we could get 4 tests a day for 3 days, that's enough for us to get some idea what to do with the dose. So that's two tests before the shots, and 1 other per cycle.
 
I have just completed day three of Kitty Boy's tests. I attached the link to my signature. Please any help I can get will be greatly appreciated. As you can see his numbers are very high. What dosage should I give him next?
 
Thanks so much for getting that spreadsheet up and running. It really helps us get an idea what is happening. Is it at all possible for you to get a test before bed? Right now the night time cycle only has preshot data, meaning we don't know what he is doing at night time. Many cats go lower at night. Even a test 2 or 3 hours after the PM shot time will give us a lot of info.

The reason I'm hesitating right now to give an answer on dose, is that it's possible we are missing some lower numbers and his body is doing what we call bouncing. If we had a night or two of data, we could eliminate that and I'd suggest an increase. But if he is going lower and bouncing, then he might need to go lower in dose. Here is the definition of bouncing.
Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).
 
Thank you for the reply. I didn't see this before bed so I can't get a shot. I must have misunderstood the directions. Super frustrated. Please confirm if this is what you need: I'm running out of strips more coming Thursday.

Four shots a day for three days?

One before breakfast, one in the middle, one before dinner and one three hours after dinner shot?

Or, do you just need the bedtime one for a few days?

Thank you.
 
  • when you get a chance ,It would be helpful if you can set up your signature so we don't have to ask you the same questions over again.
  • It appears after each post in gray, look at mine,



  • On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature. This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
    • There is a limit of two lines which may include two links; you may separate pieces with commas, dashes, | etc. This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
    • Add any other text, such as
    • Caregiver & kitty's name (optional)
    • DX: Date
    • Name of Insulin
    • Name of your meter
    • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
    • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
    • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
    • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
    • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
    • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.
Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.


tap on your avatar where it says your name ,then hit profile page ,tap on that ,then go up to the very top, upper right hand side and tap on your name ,it will bring down a drop box, tap on signature, the signature will be under settings, tap on the signature then and you can start to add what I posted above, make sure you hit save ,
Welcome to the best place you could ever be and an awesome group of people
 
I believe the spreadsheet link is in the signature and contains all the information except for the food.
 
Can I just take the nighttime test for a few days without taking all the other readings please let me know. Thanks!!!!!
 
Hresko said:
Can I just take the nighttime test for a few days without taking all the other readings please let me know. Thanks!!!!!
Click to expand...

Welcome from me too. I’m glad you set up a spreadsheet. Any night tests you can get will be helpful as many cats drop lower at night. If you get a +2 even will give us a clue. Which other readings do you want to slip? You always need an AMPS and PMPS.
 
Thank you. I'm going to begin again and take 4 tests including a night time then I'm looking forward to suggestions on changing the dosage.
 
Hresko said:
I believe the spreadsheet link is in the signature and contains all the information except for the food.
Click to expand...
Hi your signature is not set up look at the end of my post, do you see where its in grey writing, it's at the end of every ones post, just follow up he instructions I
gave you :cat: Tap on your name to the left that says Hresko, then tap on where it says profile,tap on that and you will see the word signature and continue from there
 
Last edited:
Wendy&Neko said:
Thanks so much for getting that spreadsheet up and running. It really helps us get an idea what is happening. Is it at all possible for you to get a test before bed? Right now the night time cycle only has preshot data, meaning we don't know what he is doing at night time. Many cats go lower at night. Even a test 2 or 3 hours after the PM shot time will give us a lot of info.

The reason I'm hesitating right now to give an answer on dose, is that it's possible we are missing some lower numbers and his body is doing what we call bouncing. If we had a night or two of data, we could eliminate that and I'd suggest an increase. But if he is going lower and bouncing, then he might need to go lower in dose. Here is the definition of bouncing.
Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).
Click to expand...


I updated his chart after taking a nighttime test. Also, it appears the shots are doing very little for him. I'm super anxious to try another dosage beginning tomorrow morning since he didn't even go down 10 points after his shot. Please let me know if I can begin another dose tomorrow morning? Thank you so much! His numbers are so high and I feel bad for him.
 
Hi your signature is not set up look at the end of my post, do you see where its in grey writing, it's at the end of every ones post, just follow up he instructions I
gave you :cat: Tap on your name to the left that says Hresko, then tap on where it says profile,tap on that and you will see the word signature and continue from there
 
Okay I have done my best with the signature you keep mentioning. Because I'm not sure how to change the file name I just have the link to the spreadsheet and that takes up the two lines I see I have on the signature line. I've entered all the answers I have in the spreadsheet, food and such. I apologize but I don't know what else to do
 
Hresko said:
Okay I have done my best with the signature you keep mentioning. Because I'm not sure how to change the file name I just have the link to the spreadsheet and that takes up the two lines I see I have on the signature line. I've entered all the answers I have in the spreadsheet, food and such. I apologize but I don't know what else to do
Click to expand...
Ok this is fine :cat:
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Great job, one question on your spreadsheet it says diagnosed 3/2020

Thank you for spotting that. Yes, he was diagnosed around March of last year and we slowly adjusted his meds. I feel like he did better on the lower doses but it's been over such a long period of time and then covid and we couldn't take him so it's been a very long process.
Your signature says 3/2019
Only asking because it does make a difference when members have to give dosing advice :bighug:
Click to expand...
 
Great I see you fixed it on the SS. Thank you
I have tagged the members that I have seen talked to you on your posts, hopefully
Soon you will get a reply :bighug:
 
Last edited:
If you ever want to tag someone after the last work you type make a space
then it would be @ and the persons name I always like to tag on a separate line, if you put in the first couple of letters of their name a drop box will appear with names and you can tap on that

Here is an example I will tag you
@Hresko if it's in blue you did it corrrctly
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
If you ever want to tag someone after the last work you type make a space
then it would be @ and the persons name I always like to tag on a separate line, if you put in the first couple of letters of their name a drop box will appear with names and you can tap on that

Here is an example I will tag you
@Hresko if it's in blue you did it corrrctly
Click to expand...

Thank you I feel so supported here!!!
 
Did your cat Kitty Boy get insulin for the AM (morning) on 12/7/20? No dose listed on your SS.
If no insulin was given, or you think you gave a "fur shot", then note that on the SS please.
No insulin would be recorded as 0 (zero) units in the Units column.
A possible fur shot, gets noted over in the Remarks column there on the far right. Plus, you can put a question mark after the dose amount in the Units column, to go along with that note in the Remarks column.

Hold old is your vial or pen of lantus? Trying to see if it's still good. The 5U of lantus insulin does not seem to be doing much for Kitty Boy.
 
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