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Buster2

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I have two diabetic cats. Both males. One is about 15 years old and the other about 12.
They have been on insulin for two years. I started with PZIVET then when that was discontinued, Vetsulin. Now I can't get that so I have been doing a lot of
research. My vet is not up on this info. She recommended Humilin which I think there are much better ones today than this. Right now I like what
I have seen with Levemir. I was curious as to the expense and do most of you use the pen?

I switched two years ago to a no grain dry food and some high quality can. I have an elderly father in Ohio (I live in Oregon) who I visit 3 or 4 times a year, plus I travel for my business. That is why I need to use dry food free choice and because I have 10 cats. Switching to all can is something I could not afford.

I have not found anyone or anyplace I can afford to give them injections when I travel and they seem to be OK (I am sure their kidney's work over time).
When I test them before injections they run about 200 to 250 then around 100 to 125 after.

I hope this is enough info to get your opinions as to me switching to Levemir....Thanks!
 
You can definitely do much better than Humulin.

I switched Gandalf to Levemir after 2 1/2 years on PZI Vet - that will be 3 years ago in September this year. I have never regretted switching. He was miserable on PZI because of the constant swings between high and lower BGs.

The pens are the way to go because over time the cost savings is significant. The pharmacy found a small discount for me so it was $192 for 5 pens earlier this year. Some people have ordered from Canadian pharmacies at a significant savings, but you have to have a prescription also.

You might be able to make your own food, one of our members here, Melissa, has it ground up for her and then she mixes it with canned at home at considerable cost savings since she also has 10 cats. Just a thought. She mixes it with canned to get them all to eat it I think.

It sounds like they're fairly well regulated on the Vetsulin. Please let us know their current doses. We may recommend less on Levemir. One of our members, Sheila, started her cat beau on Levemir and within 3 months he was OTJ, after 2 years on Vetsulin. Although OTJ is not the goal, cats have a better chance of it on Levemir than more rapid acting insulins like Vetsulin or even PZI.

Hopefully you've read the stickies here and the Lantus ISG also has several stickies including Levemir info as Lantus and Levemir are similar. Any other questions for us?
 
Oh, we could probably have the opinion that your should switch with only the knowledge that you have two diabetics - we LOVE levemir! :-D

First of all, congrats on having two diabetics. So do I. Both were on vetsulin to begin with. Beau I had since he was about a year old, became diabetic at age 8. He was on vetsulin for 2+ years before I switched and now he is diet controlled on low carb canned food. Jeddie I adopted after he was diagnosed because his owner could not care for him and was going to have him put to sleep if no one took him. I had him diet controlled for about 4 months (off of vetsulin), but he has needed insulin again the past 3 months or so.

I am very happy with lev. It is a longer acting insulin so their blood glucose (BG) doesn't climb and fall rapidly and extremely. I buy cartridges from Canada. Current price is 5 for $160 plus shipping, but the flexpens are cheaper (5 for $115). Several people here use the flex pens. Both pens and cartridges have a rubber membrane like a vial does that you can stick the needle through to draw the dose. You can use lev down to the last drop and I am guessing that one cart or pen will last 3-5 months, depending on dose, for one cat.

I feed my 5 cats a mixture of Friskies and Fancy Feast. They don't get any dry except a few kibbles as treats (less than 10). Since feeding dry food created at least one of my diabetics, I wish I had been feeding canned before. And treating diabetes isn't cheap although it's not prohibitively expensive either. I would just rather not have to test and shoot and schedule shots, etc.

What dry food are you feeding? There are 2-3 that are grain free and low carb. Not as low as some canned, but lower is better so you do your best.

It's great that you are testing. That is a major step in managing them. How long are you out of town on a typical trip? How long are they going without insulin? Is there no one that can even come in and feed them? I was gone for a week last fall when Beau was still on insulin and I didn't have Jeddie yet. I pre-drew the doses on the very conservative side and left them for the sitter, but I also taught him how to test and told him no insulin if he is below 150 and he never got above 150, so no shots the whole week I was gone. Maybe someone from this board lives near you and can cat sit for you.

Yeah, sounds like your vet needs a little continuing education. Humulin is a pretty lousy insulin for cats because it has a very rapid onset and little duration so they don't get 12 hour coverage and ride the BG roller coaster twice every day.

Did you read the Stickies up top about levemir? Please ask any questions you can think of.
 
Hi and Welcome to the Lev board!

I do reccomend Lev after having come from Vetsulin and then Lantus ourselves. My experience is that Lev gives you a much longer duration than vetsulin and is less fragile than lantus in my experience.

The tohers will fill you in on all the rest, I just wanted to welcome you and add a vote for Lev :thumbup
 
I am new to Levemir (I switched from ProZinc) but am already very happy with results so far.

+2 cents

-M
 
Wow, I am thrilled with the great responses here Thank-you All!
I will definitely switch to Levenir and give my vet the info I found here from the Vet school to educate her. Seems diabetic cats just are not a priority with many vets:( They were getting 12U with the Vetsulin (it was much less with PZIVET)

I have been mixing can food (some good brands like EVO and some Friskies) with the dry food, "Taste Of The Wild" When I give the injections. It doesn't list the percent of carbs but are Chicken meal, peas, sweet potatoes, chicken fat, potato protein, roasted venison, smoked salmon, natural flavors, ocean fish meal. I have noticed that their high levels have been reduced since I switched to this.

Where do some of you get your inulin from Canada? I would like to do this I think. So the pen also seems to be the way to go. Yes I have read all the stickies and watched the video's. This is a wonderful site! I have done a lot of reasearch and this is the best on the web. Kind of like another board I am on for squirrels, "The Squirrel Board" The best place if you find an orphaned squirrel etc :smile:

Thanks again!
 
I forgot to mention that I do have pet sitters but they haven't yet been able to catch the cats for injections,
they are both shy. But I am keep having them try:)
 
OMG! 12u of vetsulin!? My heart is racing... is that each? Per shot? What, exactly, is their dosing? (i.e. one gets 3.5u every 12 hours, the other gets 2.5u every 12 hours) Please don't tell me they each get 12u once a day...

And you say they got more on the PZI? Oy. Your vet is, um, really misinformed I'm afraid. The starting dose for both insulins should be .5u or 1u bid (twice a day). Many cats here were on .5u to 1.5u of vetsulin bid. I don't know about PZI, but my sister's cat was getting .5u bid for a long time.

Granted, eating dry food will usually cause a need for more insulin, but not that much more. When I first had Beau on vetsulin I was not testing at home. I took him to the vet once a week for a test. He was started on 2u of vetsulin sid (once a day) and was raised up to 7u (over the course of maybe 6 weeks) and they had me bring him for a curve and he hypoed in their office. I was also still leaving dry food down all day so he could eat if his BG dropped. Leaving dry food down probably saved his life a number of times. Anyway, he was still eating some dry food when I started home testing him. I divided his dose in half and shot 3u bid, pretty quickly dropped him to 2.5u bid. So, I'd say anywhere between 1.5 and 3u bid for a cat eating dry food.

BTW, I think that dry you are feeding is about 24% carbs. Innova Evo Cat and Kitten is 8% carbs, Wellness Core is 11% carbs, and Nature's Variety Raw Instinct is 7% - one of those would be better for them. But a lot of dry can be 35-40% carbs. The Iams weight management I was feeding Beau was 40% carbs. I use Evo for treats now and then.
 
Welcome to our little Lev family (waving hand wildly over here :smile: ) -

My Molly girl was also a PZI kitty. I liked the insulin but for us, Levemir is a much better choice.

I ordered my lev from www.canadadrugsonline.com in August of last year. At the time I got 5 3ml. cartridges for $135 plus $10 for shipping. A lot of money yes but we're still using it (we are on our last cartridge now). In February of this year i called them again to ask the current price and they stated $160 with $10 shipping. When i explained that that was quite a difference, the salesperson told me to keep checking at different times as the price increases and decreases often. I find that to be a bit odd. Maybe give them a call and see what they say.

Thrilled to have you here, welcome again! Hope the above info. helps you out. -Michele
 
Thanks again so much for all your information :smile:

I so needed a place to get this and now I can :-D

Just to ease your mind about the amount I was giving. For some reason the PZI was about 5u and that just didn't work for the Vetsulin. I had to keep increasing it up to 12u bid. I felt a reading of 100 was good and that is where they seemed to stay. I don't test regularly because they hate this. So I watch their drinking habits and urine out put.

I will go very slow with the amounts of Levemir and test as I go.
Thanks again, I now know where to come with questions and advice. You all are much more informed than my vet! It seems cats with diabetes are just not a top priority with many vets :sad:
 
Now I have questions about levemir products.
I want to buy from the Canada pharmacy. They have two products, the flex pen and the penfill cartridge.
I am not sure what the difference is and the woman at the pharmacy couldn't tell me. One she said ships from them
the other (the flexpen) ships from Turkey!

Also do you buy the disposable needls at a local pharmacy?

Thanks again!
 
Buster2 said:
Now I have questions about levemir products.
I want to buy from the Canada pharmacy. They have two products, the flex pen and the penfill cartridge.
I am not sure what the difference is and the woman at the pharmacy couldn't tell me. One she said ships from them
the other (the flexpen) ships from Turkey!

Also do you buy the disposable needls at a local pharmacy?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

You don't need the disposable needles - the end of the cartridges and pens are a rubber stopper which you can pierce just like you do through a vial of insulin. Just make sure you have U100 syringes.

The penfill cartridge is just a plastic tube of the insulin, the flexpen includes a plastic housing around the cartridge. US pharmacies only carry flexpens. So really it doesn't matter - get whichever one is cheaper.

And yes, their flexpens come from Turkey, we learned that a while back. Not sure why that is. The insulin has to be made somewhere and it's going to have to travel regardless where it comes from so I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference.

Hope that helps. And are you sure it was ".12U" - "point one two" Units of Vetsulin?? That does not seem right either. Maybe 1.2U - "one point two?"
 
Do you mean 1.2u? And are you using u100 syringes? On the u100 syringe, the unit lines are actually equal to .4u of vetsulin because it is a different dilution.

If you can get them, and yourself, used to it, I strongly urge you to test before every shot and get spot checks in when you can between +3 and +6 - that should be when they are lowest. I always give my guys a little treat after each test - small bits of chicken usually, but 3-4 kibbles sometimes (my guys don't get dry food regularly, so it is a treat. You might have to try something different).

The thing that I have found is that they can go along being predicatble and just when you wonder why you bother testing before every shot, they throw you a really low number. On lev it isn't quite as critcal as on vetsulin because of slower onset and longer duration. You would not want to be giving vetsulin if they are below 180-200 - and I got some 80s, 90s, and low 100s with Beau on occassion. OK - you could shoot vetsulin down to 140-150 but only if you had enough data to know how they would react and most probably a reduced dose.

Well, I know the flexpen is cheaper than the cartridge, but I also know someone who ordered those and they came from Turkey and it took 3 weeks or something to get them. So knowing that, I would order the cartidges and pay the extra amount I think. I got mine in 4 days, if I recall correctly. I used that same place that Michele posted about.

For syringes, I order from Hocks.com - through the green box at the top of this page. FDMB gets a small commission if you order through the link here. I get the GNP u100 syringe with half unit markings and 5/16" needle - that's a short needle, just over a 1/4", but there are other needle lengths available.

Depending on your state, you may be able to buy syringes at the pharmacy or at Walmart, Sam's Club, Costco, etc. without a script. In Chicago, where I live, I need a script, but I don't through Hocks.
 
Once again you all have been invaluable!

I do get confused with the readings on the syringes. I just have increased as needed and have been confused
since I have used different kinds of syringes. I did work at a rehab center for 5 years and finally got the .02 from .2
to just 2. But now I think using these u-100 syringes read different. So I guess I am confused again. I have been giving
to the 12u on this syringe. I am totally embarrassing my self :oops: but I am honest :smile:

Anyway, I am being educated more here than I ever got from my vet!
I did buy that ear piercer from here that looks wonderful and will help me a lot with checking their levels.

I will now go a head and get the cartridge from that Canadian pharmacy.

I am so grateful for all your info and support (I wish there was a hug smilie ;-) )
 
I know it is confusing - the u40 and u100 insulins and their syringes. But I am relieved that you are using the u100 syringes because that means it is really *only* 4.8u per shot. That still may be too much even with the dry food.

What it probably is doing is dropping them very fast and then they spike higher because of the rapid drop. Hard to know without more BG tests. You will get there.

I would suggest that you try to get a few preshot (PS) tests in over the next several days so you have an idea of where they are starting and then try for a spot check on the weekend that is around +4 (4 hours after the shot). If you think you can do it, try for a +6 also. You can alternate cats if you want, test one in the morning before the shot and the other in the evening before the shot - just keep the data separate because it is unusual for two cats to have identical responses to the same dose and food regimen. You want to have a moring PS, a +4 or +6 and an evening PS for each of them eventually.

From those numbers we may be able to guide you on doses and it will help to determine what the starting dose is for each of them on levemir when you make the change. The responses will be different on levemir - generally latter and slower in both the nadir (point of lowest BG) and the rise afterwards.
 
Thanks so much for you guidance. I think with that new "ear poker" I will be able to test more often.
I will keep you all posted as I go :smile:
 
Good luck!

And don't forget to give a treat after each testing attempt even if it wasn't successful - well, I suppose you don't want to reward them for running away and hiding..... but for each time that they sit still long enough to try. Also, you may think about having something like a piece of clean plastic to transfer the drop of blood to if they are struggling to get away. You can then let them go and test the drop right away off the plastic. I have used the lid of the strip vial, but am empty one (used up), my fingernail, and once my finger (that was not on purpose!).
 
Thanks for the tips! Yep, treats are always near :smile:

I really like the charts some of you have. Those will help me too!
 
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