New here - worried about dual health issues

[Chris & China (GA)]

This one says it is no grain. What should I be looking at to see if it's high in carbs? I couldn't find the brands you mentioned in my store. I also don't want to feed him any food with potato or things that cats don't eat in the wild like pumpkin.

"Grain Free" are just the latest buzz words to convince the human that the food is good for their pet. The manufacturer's just replaced the grains with things like potatoes, sweet potatoes, peas and chickpeas, which in some cases, actually made them even higher in carbs than their "grain-filled" varieties. You should be able to return the unused food for a refund. Pumpkin is actually usually OK....it's more of a fiber than a starch and many of us use plain pumpkin when our cats are constipated or have diarrhea (since it helps both)

The three low carb kibbles are Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein chicken (available on Chewy, Amazon, some other websites), Young Again Zero (only available on their website) and Wysong Epigen 90 (available online and in some "boutique" pet food stores) but all 3 are expensive and some cats end up with horrible gas or diarrhea and I know a lot of people who ended up throwing it away because they couldn't stand it anymore. They're also still kibble which no cat should really be eating. Despite being low carb, they also do spike the blood glucose in some cats (we aren't sure why). Lots of great information on this website, written by a vet with a special interest in feline nutrition. www.catinfo.org

You're better off sticking to low carb canned like Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies pates or 9-Lives ground. They're under 10% carb, easier to find and affordable. Even Special Kitty pates from WalMart are low carb and inexpensive. Cats are desert creatures who were designed to get their water from eating prey. A mouse is about 80% water. Most canned foods are about 78% water. Keeping a cat well hydrated helps keep the kidneys healthier (as well as the overall body). When it comes to crystals and stones, the solution to pollution is dilution!

I'm also a Case Manager for DCIN and as soon as I hear we're taking applications again, I'll be sure to let you know.

 

[Christine and Bloo]

"Grain Free" are just the latest buzz words to convince the human that the food is good for their pet. The manufacturer's just replaced the grains with things like potatoes, sweet potatoes, peas and chickpeas, which in some cases, actually made them even higher in carbs than their "grain-filled" varieties. You should be able to return the unused food for a refund. Pumpkin is actually usually OK....it's more of a fiber than a starch and many of us use plain pumpkin when our cats are constipated or have diarrhea (since it helps both)

The three low carb kibbles are Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein chicken (available on Chewy, Amazon, some other websites), Young Again Zero (only available on their website) and Wysong Epigen 90 (available online and in some "boutique" pet food stores) but all 3 are expensive and some cats end up with horrible gas or diarrhea and I know a lot of people who ended up throwing it away because they couldn't stand it anymore. They're also still kibble which no cat should really be eating. Despite being low carb, they also do spike the blood glucose in some cats (we aren't sure why). Lots of great information on this website, written by a vet with a special interest in feline nutrition. www.catinfo.org

You're better off sticking to low carb canned like Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies pates or 9-Lives ground. They're under 10% carb, easier to find and affordable. Even Special Kitty pates from WalMart are low carb and inexpensive. Cats are desert creatures who were designed to get their water from eating prey. A mouse is about 80% water. Most canned foods are about 78% water. Keeping a cat well hydrated helps keep the kidneys healthier (as well as the overall body). When it comes to crystals and stones, the solution to pollution is dilution!

I'm also a Case Manager for DCIN and as soon as I hear we're taking applications again, I'll be sure to let you know.

Thank you so much!

One problem with no dry food is that I have 2 other cats that have 0 interest in wet food. They always try to cover up what Bloo leaves behind. One of the girls is even thriving from the new dry food I bought. She is super.playful and gaining weight (she has always been way too skinny) and her fur is much softer.

My main focus is on Bloo though because I have to get this figured out. He is acting a little less hungry today but he also seems to want me to give him something different. He had his 2nd shot at 7:30 this morning. Is it normal for him to act a little differently starting on insulin?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Is it normal for him to act a little differently starting on insulin?

A lot of times we hear people say they're worried because their cat seems more lethargic after starting insulin. The best way I can explain this is to think about it this way. For many years, you've been driving an entire pot of coffee every day and then one day, somebody starts giving you a medication that blocks the effects of caffeine. You'd feel lethargic and a little crummy too. It's not exactly what's going on, but it helps you to understand why he could be acting a little differently.

He is acting a little less hungry today but he also seems to want me to give him something different.

Well, there's a couple of possibilities here. 1. now that he's getting insulin, his body is better able to use the food he's eating and 2. he's a cat...you're supposed to know that if the can you just opened isn't acceptable to his delicate taste buds, you need to keep opening more cans until you find the right one (this occasionally requires an extra trip to the store to buy more cans of cat food.....LOL)

As a way of explaining #1, think of insulin like it's a key and on every cell in the body there's a lock. The cells require glucose as food but without enough keys to open those locks, the glucose in the bloodstream can't get in (which also explains why the blood glucose is so high). Now that you've started insulin, at least some of the glucose from the food he's eating is getting into some of those cells so they're less hungry.

With Novolin being such a harsh insulin, it really would be best for you to start home testing. It's the only way of knowing what's going on inside his body. If you have a Walmart nearby, you can get a Relion Premier Classic meter for $9, 50 strips for the Premier are $9, 100 are $17.88 and you can get a box of 100 lancets for less than $2. The Relion "THIN" lancets are what you'd want, not ultra thin or micro thin. I know money is tight but if you can scrape together enough to just get those 3 things, it would be the best thing for Bloo. There's other stuff you could get if you really want them, but those 3 things are the absolute bare necessities. A lancet device is about $6 but not necessary. Most of us just freehand the lancet. Cotton cosmetic pads are nice to have to put behind the ear when you poke and then fold over to apply a little pressure so the ear doesn't bruise (but toilet paper works too)

I'd also suggest getting some Urine Ketone Test strips. He's already got some ketones and they can go from trace to deadly in very little time.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

One problem with no dry food is that I have 2 other cats that have 0 interest in wet food. They always try to cover up what Bloo leaves behind. One of the girls is even thriving from the new dry food I bought. She is super.playful and gaining weight (she has always been way too skinny) and her fur is much softer.

You will need to feed them separately and pick up any leftover so Bloo can't get into it. It can be tough, but cats can learn to eat on a schedule instead of having food down 24/7. One thing you can be doing when feeding them is to put just a little canned food on a plate next to the kibble (just a teaspoon). They may not touch it for days, weeks, even months....but almost always, at some point, they'll decide maybe it's worth a try.

 

[Christine and Bloo]

A lot of times we hear people say they're worried because their cat seems more lethargic after starting insulin. The best way I can explain this is to think about it this way. For many years, you've been driving an entire pot of coffee every day and then one day, somebody starts giving you a medication that blocks the effects of caffeine. You'd feel lethargic and a little crummy too. It's not exactly what's going on, but it helps you to understand why he could be acting a little differently.



Well, there's a couple of possibilities here. 1. now that he's getting insulin, his body is better able to use the food he's eating and 2. he's a cat...you're supposed to know that if the can you just opened isn't acceptable to his delicate taste buds, you need to keep opening more cans until you find the right one (this occasionally requires an extra trip to the store to buy more cans of cat food.....LOL)

As a way of explaining #1, think of insulin like it's a key and on every cell in the body there's a lock. The cells require glucose as food but without enough keys to open those locks, the glucose in the bloodstream can't get in (which also explains why the blood glucose is so high). Now that you've started insulin, at least some of the glucose from the food he's eating is getting into some of those cells so they're less hungry.

With Novolin being such a harsh insulin, it really would be best for you to start home testing. It's the only way of knowing what's going on inside his body. If you have a Walmart nearby, you can get a Relion Premier Classic meter for $9, 50 strips for the Premier are $9, 100 are $17.88 and you can get a box of 100 lancets for less than $2. The Relion "THIN" lancets are what you'd want, not ultra thin or micro thin. I know money is tight but if you can scrape together enough to just get those 3 things, it would be the best thing for Bloo. There's other stuff you could get if you really want them, but those 3 things are the absolute bare necessities. A lancet device is about $6 but not necessary. Most of us just freehand the lancet. Cotton cosmetic pads are nice to have to put behind the ear when you poke and then fold over to apply a little pressure so the ear doesn't bruise (but toilet paper works too)

I'd also suggest getting some Urine Ketone Test strips. He's already got some ketones and they can go from trace to deadly in very little time.

If I buy the urine strips, is the level I am looking for the same as humans? I know I can ask my vet but I figured I would ask here first since someone is always on here and the vet won't be open until the morning. I really can't thank all of you enough for all of your help. I will fill out the signature line as soon as I have all the info to post.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

With the ketone strips, you dip them into fresh urine and then compare the color on the strip to the gauge that will be on the side of the bottle. Anything over "trace" is a medical emergency.

It's important to read it at exactly 15 seconds (most of them say 15 seconds but read the directions). The color on the strip will get darker as it sits. It's also a good idea to compare it in a room with good light, like the kitchen or bathroom (if it has good lighting)

 

[Christine and Bloo]

A lot of times we hear people say they're worried because their cat seems more lethargic after starting insulin. The best way I can explain this is to think about it this way. For many years, you've been driving an entire pot of coffee every day and then one day, somebody starts giving you a medication that blocks the effects of caffeine. You'd feel lethargic and a little crummy too. It's not exactly what's going on, but it helps you to understand why he could be acting a little differently.



Well, there's a couple of possibilities here. 1. now that he's getting insulin, his body is better able to use the food he's eating and 2. he's a cat...you're supposed to know that if the can you just opened isn't acceptable to his delicate taste buds, you need to keep opening more cans until you find the right one (this occasionally requires an extra trip to the store to buy more cans of cat food.....LOL)

As a way of explaining #1, think of insulin like it's a key and on every cell in the body there's a lock. The cells require glucose as food but without enough keys to open those locks, the glucose in the bloodstream can't get in (which also explains why the blood glucose is so high). Now that you've started insulin, at least some of the glucose from the food he's eating is getting into some of those cells so they're less hungry.

With Novolin being such a harsh insulin, it really would be best for you to start home testing. It's the only way of knowing what's going on inside his body. If you have a Walmart nearby, you can get a Relion Premier Classic meter for $9, 50 strips for the Premier are $9, 100 are $17.88 and you can get a box of 100 lancets for less than $2. The Relion "THIN" lancets are what you'd want, not ultra thin or micro thin. I know money is tight but if you can scrape together enough to just get those 3 things, it would be the best thing for Bloo. There's other stuff you could get if you really want them, but those 3 things are the absolute bare necessities. A lancet device is about $6 but not necessary. Most of us just freehand the lancet. Cotton cosmetic pads are nice to have to put behind the ear when you poke and then fold over to apply a little pressure so the ear doesn't bruise (but toilet paper works too)

I'd also suggest getting some Urine Ketone Test strips. He's already got some ketones and they can go from trace to deadly in very little time.

I bought everything you listed. I tested him when I got home on the glucose meter to get a feel for it. This is before he has eaten. It registered 238. That is much better than what the doctor tested him at.

Update....just tested his pee. Trace amount (5) on the strip!

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

I think you should set up your signature and our spreadsheet so you can enter your cats BG readings
To set up your signature which you will see is at the end of everyone's post in gray, click on your name up top and then tap on the word signature and add this information

• Add info we need to help you:
  • Caregiver & kitty's name
  • DX: Date
  • Name of Insulin (do not include dose or frequency)
  • Name of your meter
  • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
  • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
  • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
  • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
  • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
  • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.

Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.

If you need help setting up the SS just ask ,we have a member that can do it for you in no time
Here is the link if you want to give it a go
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-create-a-spreadsheet.241706/

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

@Suzanne & Darcy
Hey Suzanne this was awhile ago can you please look at post # 36. I think this was when you were away when Melissa tagged you

Thanks Suzanne
@Suzanne & Darcy

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

It registered 238. That is much better than what the doctor tested him at.

yes that's much better! Just goes to prove what we tell people...tests done at the vet are unreliable due to vet stress. It's even worse when vets base dosing decisions on curves done in the office. The cat is stressed so the numbers are running higher than they would be at home...the vet see's those inflated numbers and tells the caretaker to increase the dose of insulin and you take kitty home, he relaxes and the caretaker goes ahead and gives the new higher dose. You can see how that could be a recipe for a tragedy.

Also, if he had a UTI that's now cleared up, that can also be why he's testing lower. Any infection, inflammation or pain can raise the blood glucose.

If you want some help setting up the spreadsheet, I'm happy to do it! Just send me a private message and I'll whip one up for you! Just click on my name and choose "start a conversation" to send a private message.

 

[FrostD]

I bought everything you listed. I tested him when I got home on the glucose meter to get a feel for it. This is before he has eaten. It registered 238. That is much better than what the doctor tested him at.

Update....just tested his pee. Trace amount (5) on the strip!

Ok good job on ketone test! Ideally we want none. Test daily if you can, because if he goes above trace (or starts showing DKA symptoms like acting lethargic, not eating, etc) that's a trip to vet/ER immediately. Be warned that is a very expensive trip that not everyone can afford.

To keep ketones at bay, you will want to push as much (wet) food and fluids as you can. You can water food down to make it soupy, add water bowls around the house, etc.

If he is showing ketones, he really does need a different insulin. Novolin is too short acting and harsh, it will be hard to get a dose to keep ketones away. Keep an eye on our supply closet for people looking to get rid of their insulin and supplies.

 

[Christine and Bloo]

Ok good job on ketone test! Ideally we want none. Test daily if you can, because if he goes above trace (or starts showing DKA symptoms like acting lethargic, not eating, etc) that's a trip to vet/ER immediately. Be warned that is a very expensive trip that not everyone can afford.

To keep ketones at bay, you will want to push as much (wet) food and fluids as you can. You can water food down to make it soupy, add water bowls around the house, etc.

If he is showing ketones, he really does need a different insulin. Novolin is too short acting and harsh, it will be hard to get a dose to keep ketones away. Keep an eye on our supply closet for people looking to get rid of their insulin and supplies.

I already make his wet food soupy. That's the only way he likes to eat it so that's great. I have fluids here and I know how to give them to him. I used to do it for my Beasty who had kidney problems.

And thank you for the suggested post! She is helping me and I can't be more grateful! I will be emailing my vet to ask about the difference in dosage if any.

How often do I check his blood sugar? I know there is so much to learn and I'm thinking of questions all the time so I'm sorry if I'm being a pain.

 

[FrostD]

Never a pain!

And good! How many pens are you getting?

Lantus is a U100 insulin, your Novolin should be as well so I think you're ok there (just double check your syringes are U100 - you can post a picture and we can confirm).

We typically say start at 0.5U twice a day if totally low carb wet diet, 1U twice a day if any dry or high carb food is in the picture. Chances are your vet may want you to start higher, but that makes me nervous since you got that 238. That's a fairly low number for a newly diagnosed cat.

You'll want to test before each shot to see if it is safe to give insulin. Bloo should fast two hours before these tests, these are the only tests he needs to fast for.

While on Novolin, I would get some tests in the first 4 hours after the shot as that is when it is strongest. Both day and night help, because they tend to drop lower at night. When you switch to Lantus, you'll want to focus more on the window of 2 to 6 hours after the shot, as that is when it kicks in and is strongest.

Be sure to write down any data until you can get your spreadsheet put together. The critical info is the BG reading itself, and how long after the shot it was.

 

[Christine and Bloo]

Never a pain!

And good! How many pens are you getting?

Lantus is a U100 insulin, your Novolin should be as well so I think you're ok there (just double check your syringes are U100 - you can post a picture and we can confirm).

We typically say start at 0.5U twice a day if totally low carb wet diet, 1U twice a day if any dry or high carb food is in the picture. Chances are your vet may want you to start higher, but that makes me nervous since you got that 238. That's a fairly low number for a newly diagnosed cat.

You'll want to test before each shot to see if it is safe to give insulin. Bloo should fast two hours before these tests, these are the only tests he needs to fast for.

While on Novolin, I would get some tests in the first 4 hours after the shot as that is when it is strongest. Both day and night help, because they tend to drop lower at night. When you switch to Lantus, you'll want to focus more on the window of 2 to 6 hours after the shot, as that is when it kicks in and is strongest.

Be sure to write down any data until you can get your spreadsheet put together. The critical info is the BG reading itself, and how long after the shot it was.

3 pens! That will help so much!

I've been thinking about all of this and it is weird to me that he was 238 after hours of not eating. I was at work all day and the only thing out was some kibble for the girls. He surely could have muched on that but even still, how can he be so regulated that quickly? When I say he was stressed at the vets office, I mean he was psycho. I know his stress was through the roof. He's never pulled high BG levels in the past but he has also never been so mean and nasty at the vet. Something else is going on, I just know it. He really doesn't like you to mess with his hips since that first vet stabbed him with a needle in each leg. I think when my vet tried to squeeze his bladder, it hurt or something and he just said enough. I wish I could run all these tests at home for him because he is his most calm there. I feel every time I take him to the vet his numbers will be high.

 

[Christine and Bloo]

316 at 2:15pm. That was coming home to there still being some wet food left from this morning. He isn't eating like a horse anymore and I know that's a good sign but that's a big jump in BG from yesterday.

So just so I am understanding this correctly...
I should test him in the morning before feeding him and before his shot. I should test him again in the evening (I'm guessing 12 hours later) before feeding him again and giving him his 2nd shot. Should I check again after he eats to see if the food and insulin changed the number?

Is there a BG number that I should skip a shot ever?

How often should I check the ketones?

He is currently on 1 unit of Novolin twice a day. It's not even a teardrop worth of insulin. I question whether or not I even got the insulin in his body this morning. He's a pain in the rear and has already figured out that I am going to do something to him and is starting to hide. His vet trauma over these 8 years has really messed him up. He's such a sweet boy and doesn't deserve this. I wish I knew a vet who does house calls. Might be easier for him to handle.

 

[Virginie & Chewie (GA)]

He is currently on 1 unit of Novolin twice a day. It's not even a teardrop worth of insulin. I question whether or not I even got the insulin in his body this morning. He's a pain in the rear and has already figured out that I am going to do something to him and is starting to hide. His vet trauma over these 8 years has really messed him up. He's such a sweet boy and doesn't deserve this. I wish I knew a vet who does house calls. Might be easier for him to handle.

I don't have answer to your other questions, being new to diabetes, but I do have a couple of cats that are angels at home and demons at the vet's, so I really sympathize. I also think they became like this after years of not-fun-and-not-comfortable things happening every time they go...
A previous vet had me give 100mg of gabapentin to one of them before a visit and it was WAY too much, poor thing was stumbling around unable to even walk properly (scared the beejeezus out of me). However 50mg does seem to help relax them a bit, and I also make clear every time I go to their current vet that they need to be seen ASAP and all procedures should be done without delay, as they have a very short "turkey timer". I found that part the most useful to be honest - skipping the waiting 15min for the vet to show up in the exam room has really helped avoid the Demon Stage. If you can't find a vet who does house calls, gabapentin and talking to your vet to be seen faster might be worth a shot? For things like follow-up bloodwork that don't require an exam, you should also be able to book a "tech appointment" where the vet techs take your cat to the back directly, do the tests and bring the cat right back out - it's shorter and might be easier for him (and also cheaper for you).

Best of luck with the shots! My trick for giving shots (Adequan) is to smear a spoonful of chicken or turkey baby food around a plate and put it in front of the cat while I'm giving them the injection. They usually raise their heads when I do the "skin tent" in their neck to insert the needle, but start eating again after a couple of seconds. If you could lure Bloo with baby food and then do the shot, maybe he'll start associating it with something good?

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

I should test him in the morning before feeding him and before his shot. I should test him again in the evening (I'm guessing 12 hours later) before feeding him again and giving him his 2nd shot. Should I check again after he eats to see if the food and insulin changed the number?

Yes, you always test immediately before feeding/shooting and you don't want him eating for the 2 hours before those "pre-shot" tests so you get a number that's not influenced by food. With Novolin, then you feed, wait at 60 minutes and then shoot. You want to make sure he eats a good amount and it stays down since when Novolin "hits" it hits hard and fast so there needs to be food on board. (when you switch to Lantus, you can Test/Feed/Shoot all in about 5-10 minutes.)

You should test again about 2 hours after the shot (and if possible, at various other points in the cycle to get an idea of how he does). This is why it's important to get a spreadsheet going too so we can see what's going on in the format we're used to. I'm still happy to set it up for you.

Is there a BG number that I should skip a shot ever?

Depends on the type of insulin and the amount of testing data you have but with Novolin, if under 250 we don't recommend shooting.

How often should I check the ketones?

If he has a history of ketones, you should test at least once a day. As long as he's running in high numbers, you should also test once a day. You want to catch ketones early to have the best chance at treating them.

He is currently on 1 unit of Novolin twice a day. It's not even a teardrop worth of insulin.

It can seem like little or nothing, but insulin is a very powerful hormone and it doesn't take much!

You might start trying to condition him. Using a routine/reward training method usually works pretty well. Decide where you want to give his shots (this also works for home testing). Take him there as many times a day as you can. Give him a quick pet/stroke where you usually shoot (you can even very gently "pinch" just to get him used to it) and then give him a special treat that he doesn't get any other time. A little piece of baked chicken, a little tuna, whatever special treat he really enjoys. It can also be something like a nice brushing, some extra play time....just whatever he would consider a "reward".

Please start a new thread tomorrow. We don't want these threads to go over about 50 comments because it's too hard to go back and read through that much. When you start a new thread, after you do the "Subject line" and are ready to post in the body of the message, copy the link to the previous post and paste it into the new one so people can quickly go back and see what's been going on.

If you'll send me a message, I'll help you get your Signature and spreadsheet done. We really depend on those to be able to give you the best advice without having to ask the same questions over and over again. It's especially important in a crisis that we don't have to go back and read through a bunch of posts before we can help you!

 

[FrostD]

238 is still diabetic numbers, but a good sign! Just get what tests you can, it takes a little bit for both of you to get used to it.