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Mowgli and Keri

Mowgli and Keri

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So,
I need some confirmation and support more than anything :smile:
My 9 year old neutered male was losing weight quickly and lost his appetite...Well his normal appetite forsure, he would still eat a few kibbles but did not have his usual ravenous hunger...So he lost about 2.5lbs in two weeks. Went to the vet where they proceeded to run some blood tests on him... The vet never inquired as to what my cats diet is either. The vet called me and said that he is "pretty sure" that Mowgli has diabetes and that I would need to bring him in tomorrow and have a gluco curve done on him to figure out his insulin dosage. My stress is this, WTH is "pretty sure" and also they DIDN'T RUN urine!!!!!
I have an appointment with the vet tonite, just me, no Mowgli, to ask a list of questions.
My other question to you is, Obviously I am feeling less than confident in this veterinarian, and would like a second opinion...But how long should I keep prolonging his treatment if he does infact have diabetes? I have started feeding him the fancy feast that was on the list provided and he eats it up..Even meowing at me this morning for more! :o
I am also concerned because my Mowgli gets very stressed in car rides and at the vet, and I have been reading about false readings while at the vet.....again, the reason i was concerned they didn't run a urine!!
Now I know of someone that has a diabetic cat, but their vet clinic is 45minutes one way, I am thinking this might be a worthwhile drive to ensure the right treatment happens for my Mowgli...
I am NOT comfortable with allowing a gluco curve to be done, when "pretty sure" and no urine test is my diagnosis...
I appreciate any help or advice with this!! I am extremely anxious and stressed and want what is best for my boy!!
P.S his blood glucose level was 21.6
 
His blood sugar is high, 389 is what that would equal for those of us in the US.

But, I would be hesitant to start insulin without more information. I don't necessarily care about urine, yes, checking to see if sugar is spilling into the urine is an indicator, but to me, and I'm no expert, a fructosamene blood test may be more helpful.

I'd also want to check other factors first. The not eating and stress at the vet could have caused the increased blood sugar. Did the vet check his teeth? A bad tooth can cause inappetance and increased BG.

An infection of any kind could raise the blood sugar.

You could do a curve at home using a human glucometer, but if it were my cat, I'd want full bloodwork, urinalysis and dental check done.

Has your cat been drinking more or peeing more? Those are indicators of FD. Weight loss can also be attributed to other illnesses, which is why I'd want full bloodwork done.

Did the vet find anything else on the bloodwork? Did he run a test to check for hyperthyroidism?
 
Hi,
He did run for hyperthyrodism...I haven't SEEN the results yet, is why I am going in tonite...He called me over the phone..
My boy always drank alot, and peed alot so that is nothing new to me..Infact I would say he is peeing less, which is why I am curious...
He did look at his teeth, and said they weren't the greatest...But that is all I saw, a visual without even picking off plaque... originally i thought it might be a cause for his lack of appetite....
I think I will make an appointment at another vet.... If this vet hasn't run all the appropriate tests I feel less than confident for him taking care of my boy.
I too realize there could be many reasons for his glucose to be high, I will check tonite when I meet with this vet if he did run FULL blood work..
And if there is anything else anyone thinks I should ask him would be great... My other vet WHOM I LOVED, moved to a different province to open her own practice...So thus the reason I am in the unknown.....
 
Where in Canada are you? I'm in Alberta...

You need to find out whether a simple blood glucose or fructosamine test was run, and whether there are any other values out of whack.

As for a glucose curve, he does not need one to determine dosage. Its rather backwards, actually. You start on a low dose of insulin twice a day, and do a curve after a week or so to see how that dose works in your cat, and adjust accordingly. To curve the first day is useless because the body takes time to adapt. Vet curves are no longer accepted standard practice, and both veterinary journal articles plus the canadian veterinary association recommend hometesting instead.

Jen
 
I am in Edmonton, Alberta...
And I appreciate What you just told me VERY MUCH! If you are in Edmonton, or this area which vet do you use?
I think i am going to try and get an appointment at the Edmonton North Animal Hospital, as the acquaintance I know uses that vet clinic for his diabteic cat..
 
I am in Calgary but we do have one or two folks there including CHristine and Ed in Ft Saskatchewan and I'm sure that they would love to provide some local advice and even personal help. I will send them a link to this post sand hopefully they can respond today.

Jen
 
THANK YOU SO SO SO MUCH!!!!
I hope to hear back as I hate running my fluffer around the city and rural area getting opinion after opinion and find a vet that is FAMILIAR with this, and will be efficient with the tests needed or NOT needed...
~sigh~
Who knows, he may not even have diabetes, could be something else.....did i mention ~sigh~ but I will DEFINETLY NOT be doing a glucose curve tomorrow!
 
Update:
So I went to the new vet this morning, WAY more efficient, WAY more helpful.. Listened to me, took his time filled me in on EVERYTHING.... So being that the other clinic only ran full blood and not fructosamine and full urinyalisis. The new vet is running the urinalysis and fructosamine today and I should have an answer from him... He actually LISTENED TO ME, and Mowglis sypmtoms... And unlike my other vet who thought that I was way off with it being his teeth... This vet is inclined to think that may just be the reason... But running the urine and fructose will make it clear for us.
He also told me the treatment options if he does have diabetes and what the different levels in teh fructos test will indicate...
I appreciate the advice thats been given. and will post an update....
 
Well it is confirmed my mowgli is diabetic... I believe if I read correctly his fructosamine was 515... he is on 3units twice a day of the caninsulin...
eek.....anxious....me not him, lol
 
This is a large starting dose. We urge people to start low (.5 to one unit 2 x a day) and go slow with increases. You need to get up to speed on hometesting so you can keep track of exactly what is happening.

Canninsulin is not a favored insulin here. Here is some info on quality control issues: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=311. And a guide for use: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=302

Have you seen the info on hometesting: http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/harry/bgtest.htm

Please do some more reading and research and ask questions. I am concerned with your vet's choice of insulin and starting dose.
 
I am nervous because I don't know what to do....i obviously want to do whats right by my boy....and feel overwhelemed and unsure of what questions to ask my vet.... i am so so so overwhelmed....I am supposed to start the insulin tomorrow with him, but now i am unsure and uneasy... :sad: do i put off starting his injections....or do i decide on my own to start with one......twice a day as opposed to three....especially being that I work not one but TWO jobs and will not be home to monitor him.... AGGGHHHHHHHHHH :cry:
 
should i maybe wait till monday and try and talk to the vet?? about not only caninsulin but also the dosage? is it better safe than sorry or am i causing harm by waiting??
will check in the morning off to bed after my night shift... ~sigh~
 
It is hard to get conflicting advice from strangers on the Internet. When Oliver was first diagnosed, it was Christmas and my vet went on vacation. The techs in the office couldn't give me dosing advice so I came here. My vet had started us on 4 units twice a day. Once I changed the food and learned to hometesting here using the videos, I quickly lowered the dose.

I like my vet and for most things, she is great. But I figure she is like a gp. she knows a little about lots of things but is not a FD specialist. Everyone here has or is successfully, safely treating a diabetic cat. The protocol works. lots of cats go off insulin. And a big part of the protocol is to start with a low dose. You can always increase the dose over time if it is not enough (which you can tell by hometesting) but once you shoot, the insulin is in the cat and too much can cause a hypo, even on the first dose.

I am concerned that your vet may not be up on the latest, as he prescribed Vetsulin. Vets have gotten info on its quality control problems.
 
thing is, apparently this vet treats many cats for diabetes...is the reason i made the trek to him...
needless to say i am stressed and will not be starting the vetsulin...
What is the preferred insulin here? I am going by people that USE the product not push the product..
I will get copies of his tests faxed to me tomorrow....
I will buy a glucose monitor today, and strips of course.....
i think i will start with that......
i am for good reason apprehensive of starting the caninsulin, UNLESS i am doing mowgli harm by waiting???
they also prescribed some anti biotics Clinacin to give for the first ten days of his dosages to ward off any infections he may have from his bad tooth..as he said that obviously we cannot conquer a tooth until we have the diabetes under control...
P.S---the vet gave him 3units yesterday at two to show me how, and I have not done an injection since being in there...
 
The preferred insulins here are Lantus, Levemir and PZI. You can go to those three support group pages and check out the stickies and the posts and get an idea of how they are working for people: viewforum.php?f=5 They vary but all work well and are mild on the kitty, without big highs and lows and they usually last the 12 hour cycle.

If I were you, I would print off that page about the Vetsulin/Canninsulin recall and take it to the vet. It may work on some cats, but why start on a new insulin with quality control issues?

It is a great plan to get the meter and strips and start learning how to hometest today. We can walk you through it. Have you seen this pages: http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/harry/bgtest.htm and the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 If you need a number, you can come on and ask for advice. At least you will know how he is doing right now. We are big on hometesting. It is the safest way to give insulin and it means you don't need to take the kitty in for tests at the vet. You can do the tests at home and send him the results.

We have no agenda. Everyone who posts to you is paying it forward for help we received when we were new and scared. We try to give you ways to treat your cat at the least expense and in the safest way.
 
Please someone give me the strength to MAKE MY VET change his insulin type!
They are adament that it is fine, the canninsulin...
AGHHHHH
anyway...i told them i would call the manufacturer as they requested but sheesh what else would a manufacturer say other than, it's fine.... just not reliable...
OY

also, i did his ear pricks last night...i did one before supper and one two hours after...before supper he was 19 and after he was 19.7
he such a good boy, just sat in my lap and purred while i did it!!
LOVE HIM!!
 
Has your vet seen the recall information? And he still insists it is a good insulin to start out a new diabetic with? That makes no sense to me.

It is possible that it is the only insulin he has ever worked with and he doesn't want to try anything else. But he is doing his patients a real disservice.

Didn't Jen and Squeak have a contact for you in your area? You could send her a private message to see if she can help find you another vet. If you are in Canada, their medical rules are different. Canadians - can she get insulin without a prescription?
 
I emailed Christine and Ed but haven't heard back :(

I'm sorry your vet is insisting on caninsulin. Until you sort this out, I'd use it, but go to 1 unit twice a day and monitor. It is ridiculous to us that your vet insists on this insulin, but once a vet gets comfortable with an insulin it can be hard to change their mind. You can show them via testing how it works in your particular cat.

FYI did they know that it was designed for dogs and that dogs and cats metabolize insulin differently?

Hugs

Jen
 
I called, they don't generally use any human insulins...so it would appear all they use is canninsulin...HOWEVER, she did say in previous phone call they only switch to human insulin if canninsulin doesn't work for the patient.......she is going to talk to the vet (the aht will talk to) to find other alternatives for mowgli..I suggested either Lantus or Levemir and she mentioned something called alantra?? or something? anyway... yes they HAVE seen the "alert" and she even has it on her desk....
I am so frustrated......
:-x
as i understand it you cannot get insulin otc here, you need prescriptions....
Am waiting for either her or the vet to call me back......
BTW most the clinics i have called in edmonton, specifically use canninsulin....
are we that *behind* here??
 
I think that this vet is behind the times...vets have been using human-designed insulins forever. Up until recently, there was a line of 'Humulin' insulins commonly used, and one of them, Humulin N, is still used occassionally. There are tons of journal articles and studies using lantus/glargine in cats, and PZI is a cat-designed insulin manufactured by Summit in Ontario. Caninsulin was designed for dogs. Your vet is actually using a protocol used in some European countries where they have to use caninsulin first before going to other insulins.

I've never heard of Alantra, nor was it listed anywhere that I could find on a brief google search. Here's a list of common diabetes medications http://www.healthcentral.com/diabetes/find-drug.html

I'm sorry about this, I really am. While you try to sort this out, I would personally try the caninsulin. Or, I believe you can get lantus from your pharmacy without a prescription. I'd just call your nearest Shoppers and ask, and do not mention your cat.
 
Correction

I read further in the link I gave you and it appears that Avandamet is an oral med. So your vet would consider a human oral med before lantus/glargine. Yikes. Stay away from oral meds (Pills) as they try to force the pancreas to work.

Jen
 
If at all possible, I would insist that they give you a prescription for Lantus... I kept hearing that using Lantus with the protocol recommended here, along with a switch to ultra-low-carb diet, could provide a road to remission. It sounded promising to me, and after all the reading I did, it just made common sense. I did have to argue with my vet about this (and several other things), I took the approach that the vet works for me and my cat; we don't work for him. My cat did in fact go into remission and only needed two weeks of insulin before he became self-regulated on the strict diet.
 
Okay he said he would call in the lantus or hummilin but that the lantus is only one to two doses per vile?
i am drinking now...
Okay, I am now calling shoppers....
I really am appreciating all this help and support!!
 
One to two doses per vile? Huh? Lantus is a U100 insulin and comes either in a vial or in cartridges that people use with teh solostar pen. Many cat owners buy the cartridges and use a regular insulin needle to reduce costs (the cartridges cost a lot up front but are more economical). See www.lantus.com but please note that the info is geared towards humans so while lantus may be a 24hr insulin in people, it is not in cats. For cat geared info, please click on the lantus insulin sub group as there is tons of info there for people.

FYI...humulin and lantus are vastly different insulins, and if your vet doesn't know that, I'd be looking again, I'm sorry.
 
Just got off phone with a pharmacy that provides for animals..they do not need a prescription but they need to create a profile and record the dosages.
SO, for me the simple person..
Please clarify...
(i will go down at lunch and get some pens)
BUT, what is the dosage I should start with when using the lantus pnes? Being that for some reason, i am not the most confident in the vet...
An yes, I will tell the vet I changed my cat to the lantus, and have been monitioring his BG at home...
 
And start reading the stickies on the Lantus page. You will want to know how it works and how to care for it.viewforum.php?f=9 It sounds like you will be educating your vet. Which is a great pay it forward - maybe you can help other cats in the practice!
 
WIth lantus, you'll start with no more than 1 unit, twice a day. Make sure you read the info at the lantus sub group first, ok?

Good for you :)
 
Ok....
i am still VERY overwhelmed and getting very little done here at work..But I want to start mowgli tonite so want to get all I can before heading home... (dial up internet at home, gah)
I am heading over to read the lantus subgroup now...
An I should make a profile up for my mowgli and myself,
thank you ALL SO SO SO SO MUCH!
:YMHUG: cat_pet_icon
And I know, this is not the last of me here...
And please feel free to share any thoughts or suggestions...
 
You will do just fine. You've shown yourself to be a great advocate for Mowgli and that's all that really matters :) We will look forward to an update

Jen
 
ikshar said:
as i understand it you cannot get insulin otc here, you need prescriptions....
Am waiting for either her or the vet to call me back......
BTW most the clinics i have called in edmonton, specifically use canninsulin....
are we that *behind* here??
Click to expand...

You do not need a RX for insulin OTC here. At least we did not need one for Caesar.

Hello - Edwin from Fort Saskatchewan here. We use a Vet in Sherwood Park, right on Baseline Road, next to the Canadian Tire store. Called Brentwood Vet Clinic. Our Vet was very supportive of our home testing, and of using insulins other than Caninsulin. It did not take us long to go through several insulins until we settled on Lantus.

Give me a call during the day - I forward my home phone to my cell when I leave the house, so am always "connected" LOL. but in any case, here is my cell #

780
721
7185

Give me a shout when you can. We have found that many vets - especially the older ones - are more "set" in their ways, and treat FD as they would canine or even bovine - all the same to them. Few actually have "recent" training on the care/treatment of FD. That's the problem with our Vet Schools being out on the Prairies - more focused on livestock than pets.

Cheers,

Edwin
 
So i got a solarstar pen... the pharmacy was okay with selling me one..
now here may be a silly question...
do i give the injection from the pen? as tips were provided and i paid for more tips.... or do i get syringes and draw from the pen??
 
I re-read the stickies and agree that it is to be drawn from the pen, I have posted over there now, and hope to get a little bit more information as to perhaps a starting dose to get him going..
thanks again
 
Great! They will want a spreadsheet as they base their dosing advice on previous numbers. If you want help, I have put them together for several newbies. Just send me a pm.

If you want to try, it isn't terribly hard. Here is the info: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207
 
IMHO, if the cat has never been on ANY type of insulin before, I would only give .5u BID. If the cat were to be sensitive to insulin, and especially Lantus as it is a long(er)-lasting insulin, I would think that starting very low for about a week to see how the cat tolerates the insulin, then increase slowly from there.

I would also curve for at least the first week, and spot curve for the next few weeks until you are sure that the cat has settled on a specific dose.

I would allow at least a week (if not more) between doseage increases to keep an eye out for "Rebound" - which a newbie may mistake for not enough insulin.

Remember, just IMHO, ok?

Remember the motto: Start Low, Go Slow.

FYI, there are syringes out there (u100's) that have .5 u measurement lines - much easier to measure than "guessing" where the 1/2 unit location "might" be. We gave all our supplies away when Caesar passed, but our Sobey's Pharmacy had these Insulin Needles that had 1/2 unit markings on the barrel of the syringe, greatly aiding in drawing insulin.

Oh, and if you would like, I believe that we still have a vial of Lantus in the Fridge - if you would like it, just let me know - we could meet for coffee and talk. And I think we still have a meter or two and some test strips for the meter, if you would like those as well.

Edwin 721-7185 Ft. Sask.
 
Just one more thing - a vial of Lantus can last more than 3 months - when giving 2 units BID. So if anyone is telling you that a vial will only last a couple of doses - they must be thinking of a very very small (read: tiny!) vial.

I have in my hand a 1/2 full glass vial of Lantus U100, 100 units size (about 1.5 inches tall, 1/2 inch diameter). The first half lasted about 2 months, and the second half is still good as far as I'm concerned. We keep it in the refrigerator, and the expiry date is April 2004, so there should be nothing wrong with it if you would like it.

There is at least 1-2 months of insulin in that vial.

Much cheaper than using a "pen".

Call us, eh? We'd be happy to help. We've helped two of our friends to get their cats to "Honeymoon" using Lantus and Diet changes.

Let's talk,

Edwin
 
Hi Edwin,
I tried giving you a jingle on your cell yesterday, left a message for you..maybe i got the wrong number??
lol Let me know if you happened to get my message, I did call from work so maybe that gotcha..Hertz Equipment is where I work..
I would be more than happy to take the Lantus off your hands (guessing its 2014 not 2004 expiry lol) The syringes I have are the 1/2 but obviously I will be needing more of those in my life now too! The pen was about twenty bucks, and safeway was good enough to sell me just one at a time...thankfully after all the inital upfront costs I have been dealing with, well I am sure everyone deals with.

I will try and give you a call later today or tomorrow and chat with you, set somewhere up for coffee sometime would be fantastic! Is nice to know there is also someone that is in the area!!
:razz:
Thanks so much for getting back to me and talk soon!!
 
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