New here! Charts, food labels! What should I change?

[Erosandkitty]

Hello! First post! Looking to get my buddies numbers down. Im already wanting to switch insulins since reading that vetsulin isnt the best? Looking to switch to Lantus a.s.a.p.

Pet Name-Tim
Type-Male Russian Blue
Diagnosed-8/21/2014
Insulin- Vetsulin
Reader-CVS Brand


Chart-https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JDXiVQys7AbYc74I2y4_Twk6SW0bjgq9vwaISX0Hhg0/edit#gid=0
Food-Great Choice Poulty Platter wet food(just swapped from dry HILLS

 

[Erosandkitty]

Here's his food-Grreat Choice Poultry platter(previously sophistacat sp?)

 

[Tara & Buster]

Hello and welcome! I am guessing since you listed a "reader" you are hometesting. This is important because numbers can change pretty drastically with food changes alone. Be sure you are getting tests before your insuling shots and also at least one time in the middle of the cycle. Dose changes are based off of the lowest point in the cycle, not the pre-shots, so it is a worthwhile effort. The more data you have, the easier it will be for people to advise.

As for food...Here is a list from Dr Pierson which can be found with lots of other great cat nutrition info on http://www.catinfo.org. I find it is a bit tricky to read, so here's a shortened list of foods that are less than 10% carbs (which is what you're shooting for). You should be feeding canned food only - dry has too many carbs and isn't good for kitties in general. Many feed Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies Pate flavors - it doesn't need to be crazy expensive.

You can put the link to your spreadsheet in your signature so it will be with every post and is an easy reference for those trying to advise dosing when requested. Use the User Control Panel near the upper right of the page to set up an auto signature. If you want to just link something in your posts, use the little URL button right underneath the subject line.

I'm sure others will be along with more questions and info. Good luck to you and Tim!!

 

[Erosandkitty]

So, the insulin shot is based off the lowest point of the cycle and not the number before being fed? I didnt know that. So, do I have this right-
Hypothetical day
6:00 Test
6:00Feed
7:00 (1 hr later) Insulin
1:00 6 hrs later test(then does this number determine my pm shot?)
A little lost now on what to do after this^^

My vet says I need to do a curve to potentially get his insulin changed. Have you all had the same experience? Like I said earlier, I was looking to get Lantus mainly bc Ive seen quite a few kitty charts with wonderful results-low numbers and units given and kitties going OTJ. Ive also had someone share a link(for lantus) where I could buy for lower dollars. Other suggestions are welcome!

Thanks so much!

 

[Tara & Buster]

If you are testing regularly, you won't need to take Tim into the vet for curves. Stress at the vet can raise the numbers and potentially skew dose adjustments. It's not a bad idea to get a curve on a weekend (or whenever you have a full day off) every now and then when you're starting out. Personally, I ditched my vet's guidance at some point and went solely by the advice given here. I just show my vet Buster's chart when I visit and she is ok with that and has been good about continuing prescriptions. By all means, feel free to work together with your vet, but sometimes they don't agree with the protocol we follow here and it can be challenging. You will have to decide what works best for your situation.

As for dose changes, you want to hold a dose for about 6 cycles before making any changes. Lantus is a depot insulin, so it builds up in the system. You shouldn't be making daily dose changes. Also, if you can feed smaller meals throughout the day it can help a healing pancreas. Many people add water to the canned food and freeze it in ice cube trays so they can use auto feeders.

If at any point you would like help deciding what to dose, just post here. This board is very responsive and members have an amazing wealth of knowledge.

 

[dirtybirdsoaps]

So, the insulin shot is based off the lowest point of the cycle and not the number before being fed? I didnt know that. So, do I have this right-
Hypothetical day
6:00 Test
6:00Feed
7:00 (1 hr later) Insulin
1:00 6 hrs later test(then does this number determine my pm shot?)
A little lost now on what to do after this^^

My vet says I need to do a curve to potentially get his insulin changed. Have you all had the same experience? Like I said earlier, I was looking to get Lantus mainly bc Ive seen quite a few kitty charts with wonderful results-low numbers and units given and kitties going OTJ. Ive also had someone share a link(for lantus) where I could buy for lower dollars. Other suggestions are welcome!

Thanks so much!

A curve is just testing every 1-2 hrs to see how the insulin works. Sadly, with vetsulin you'll usually get high numbers because it wears off so quickly. Usually vetsulin only lasts for about 8 hrs or so. It is better for you to do a curve at home because stress will raise the bg. Was your vet saying they wanted a curve on the vetsulin to prove you need a different insulin, or were they saying you needed to bring him in on the first day of them starting lantus for a curve? I only ask because my vet absolutely REFUSED to just switch insulins, I had to take Hidey in the first day they started him on prozinc todo a curve, which is BS if you ask me because they still started him too high.

The food, 2% is a good choice. Even with that being label numbers its still good.

As for the +6 number determining what to shoot for the PM shot, yes you take that into account for your PM shot BUT it depends on the insulin. With lantus its a depot insulin and takes a few days to build up in the system, insulin like prozinc you can adjust dosage a little easier.

Has your vet ruled out other possible causes for high bg? Teeth, infection, etc?

Oh and dont forget the diabetic friendly treats Most here use freeze dried chicken

 

[atajev]

So, the insulin shot is based off the lowest point of the cycle and not the number before being fed? I didnt know that.

The dosing methods are different for different insulins, but for Lantus the testing number before eating is used to determine if their BG is high enough to give insulin at all (it won't send them dangerously low), but the amount that you give is determined by the low point in the cycles over the last several days. I personally just got my spreadsheet up and running and let the experts here help guide my dosing amounts early on, and tried to understand/internalize the protocol for Lantus at the same time.

Hypothetical day
6:00 Test
6:00Feed
7:00 (1 hr later) Insulin
1:00 6 hrs later test(then does this number determine my pm shot?)
A little lost now on what to do after this^^

As a general rule you want to test your cats when it doesn't have food in its system (hasn't eaten for at least two hours) and administer the insulin (for Lantus anyway) right away, with a meal, as long as the glucose is high enough to give a shot. You'll also want to get in at least one mid-cycle test every time (a cycle is the 12 hours between any two shots). The closest you get to the middle, the better, but any additional tests are useful.

So, it might look like:

6:00 Test -> Insulin -> Feed
1:00 Test -> Feed
6:00 Test -> Insulin -> Feed
9:00 Test

If your cat dips below 40, you adjust the dose immediately (the next shot). But otherwise, you hold the dose for several days (often 7-10 days) and just track the numbers before making any adjustments. You always give the same dose AM and PM and day to day until you have many days of data and the data indicates a dosing adjustment based on the protocol you're using.

I know a lot of this is really vague and theoretical, but I promise that it'll start to make sense in a while. For now, getting comfortable with testing is where you want to be focused.

 

[Erosandkitty]

So, the insulin shot is based off the lowest point of the cycle and not the number before being fed? I didnt know that. So, do I have this right-
Hypothetical day
6:00 Test
6:00Feed
7:00 (1 hr later) Insulin
1:00 6 hrs later test(then does this number determine my pm shot?)
A little lost now on what to do after this^^

My vet says I need to do a curve to potentially get his insulin changed. Have you all had the same experience? Like I said earlier, I was looking to get Lantus mainly bc Ive seen quite a few kitty charts with wonderful results-low numbers and units given and kitties going OTJ. Ive also had someone share a link(for lantus) where I could buy for lower dollars. Other suggestions are welcome!

Thanks so much!

A curve is just testing every 1-2 hrs to see how the insulin works. Sadly, with vetsulin you'll usually get high numbers because it wears off so quickly. Usually vetsulin only lasts for about 8 hrs or so. It is better for you to do a curve at home because stress will raise the bg. Was your vet saying they wanted a curve on the vetsulin to prove you need a different insulin, or were they saying you needed to bring him in on the first day of them starting lantus for a curve? I only ask because my vet absolutely REFUSED to just switch insulins, I had to take Hidey in the first day they started him on prozinc todo a curve, which is BS if you ask me because they still started him too high.

The food, 2% is a good choice. Even with that being label numbers its still good.

As for the +6 number determining what to shoot for the PM shot, yes you take that into account for your PM shot BUT it depends on the insulin. With lantus its a depot insulin and takes a few days to build up in the system, insulin like prozinc you can adjust dosage a little easier.

Has your vet ruled out other possible causes for high bg? Teeth, infection, etc?

Oh and dont forget the diabetic friendly treats Most here use freeze dried chicken

I told them I was charting at home and they seemed unimpressed. The vet said they wanted a curve on file before they tried to change his meds. The day I brought Tim in to get diagnosed, there was a fill in vet who I spoke with(briefly). And when Tim's meds came in a few days later, the vet also was not there. Im thinking this might not be the best vet fit ... Nothing else was diagnosed. They said his renal numbers were high, but they thought it was because of the diabetes.

 

[Tara & Buster]

It's up to you if you want to do the curve to appease the vet. Honestly, the people here can help you through everything as long as you have the prescription for the insulin and can hometest. I don't know why some vets are so intimidated by hometesting, but it doesn't surprise me from what people here have experienced. It's a bit of a leap of faith but I'm glad I jumped. I nearly lost Buster to a hypoglycemic episode by just blindly following my vet. Looking back I realize we were increasing the dose way too fast and I just didn't understand all of this. The people here saved us and I am forever in their debt. Keep researching and asking questions. I have found this is a situation that requires a lot of ownership on the side of the kitty parent. It must be very hard for a vet to manage it from the office. You can do this and we can help!