? New dose wonkyness?

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/mr-kitty-11-19-amps-403-pmps-456.221893/#post-2480009

We started SLGS on Lantus and increased our dose Saturday for the second time. Yesterday he dropped over 100 points at +2. (Confirmed with a second test) then went up over 100 points at +3. Is this considered the new dose wonkyness or are we doing something wrong? Maybe not holding the dose long enough? Or did we start him to high at 1U when he came out of remission? Perhaps we need more patience? He’s at an all time high tonight. Thanks for your support.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Yesterday he dropped over 100 points at +2.

I don't see a test at +2....just +3 and +4

Getting a cat back into remission a 2nd time is always a lot harder than the first. You might want to consider getting rid of the Young Again so you can do TR so you don't let him spend a whole week in high numbers. On TR you can raise the dose as often as every 3 days.

Now dropping that quickly can trigger a bounce, so there's probably some bouncing going on and the only thing you can do is wait it out.

Are you testing for ketones? At numbers that high, it's a good idea. DKA's are expensive to treat and treatment isn't always successful.

Remember, treating diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint. Hang in there!

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

I don't see a test at +2....just +3 and +4

Getting a cat back into remission a 2nd time is always a lot harder than the first. You might want to consider getting rid of the Young Again so you can do TR so you don't let him spend a whole week in high numbers. On TR you can raise the dose as often as every 3 days.

Now dropping that quickly can trigger a bounce, so there's probably some bouncing going on and the only thing you can do is wait it out.

Are you testing for ketones? At numbers that high, it's a good idea. DKA's are expensive to treat and treatment isn't always successful.

Remember, treating diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint. Hang in there!

I didn’t test +2 because when I do his numbers are usually the same or a slight difference at that time in the AM. I usually get +2 in the evening. He was higher at +2 on 11/23. He’s really not eating the dry food so we can take it away completely to see if that makes a difference. He loves his fancy feast pate. Should I wait a few days after taking away YA to make changes with his dose? I picked up ketone strips today, so please wish us luck! Thanks.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

Hi there. Since dry food takes longer to clear the system, I’d wait a few days after the removal of it to do any dose increase if he’s still eating it. BUT if he’s really not eating it anymore, then I think you would be okay to increase.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

New Dose Wonkiness (NDW) occurs in the first 24 hours after you increase the dose and results in the numbers being higher. He’s well past the point of NDW. He dropped due to onset which is normal. Quite often when the BG is that high, they drop a little more.

Since he loves FF, I’d also suggest getting rid of the dry and switching to TR so you can get him out these high numbers faster.

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

New Dose Wonkiness (NDW) occurs in the first 24 hours after you increase the dose and results in the numbers being higher. He’s well past the point of NDW. He dropped due to onset which is normal. Quite often when the BG is that high, they drop a little more.

Since he loves FF, I’d also suggest getting rid of the dry and switching to TR so you can get him out these high numbers faster.

We took away the YA tonight and they acted like it was the end of the world. Please send us good thoughts. We sure need them

 

[Marje and Gracie]

We took away the YA tonight and they acted like it was the end of the world. Please send us good thoughts. We sure need them

Poor babies! Just keep an eye on his BG. If YA really is that low carb, you won’t see a big change in BG but I’m not so convinced it is as LC as they say.

Good thoughts coming your way! Paws crossed.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

The below definition was taken right out of the FDMB
GLOSSARY

NDW Aka New Dose Wonkiness - "Many cats will occasionally react to an increased dose with increased BGs -within the first 2 to 3 days after an increase, usually lasting for less than 24 hours. Nobody really knows what the reasonfor this phenomenon is (perhaps a "panicky liver"?) - hold thedose and ignore the fluctuations."


For whatever it’s worth , Bubba seemed to experience it on the 2nd day after the increase whenever it occurred. And it was usually over within 24 hours.

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

Thanks everyone. His AMPS was 485 today, which is the second highest number he’s had since we started insulin. This is day 4 of the newest increase, and if I look back, day 4 of the first increase tested similar, so that’s why I ask about the wonkeyness.

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

Poor babies! Just keep an eye on his BG. If YA really is that low carb, you won’t see a big change in BG but I’m not so convinced it is as LC as they say.

Good thoughts coming your way! Paws crossed.

His BG really isn’t affected with the YA but I’m

Poor babies! Just keep an eye on his BG. If YA really is that low carb, you won’t see a big change in BG but I’m not so convinced it is as LC as they say.

Good thoughts coming your way! Paws crossed.

Thank you!! Here’s what we were doing: Husband gets up and tests Mr. Kitty at 6:30am, more than two hours before shot time, and feeds YA dry kibble - he has at least two hours after eating to fast for his amps/shot. I did a calculation to see what influence YA had and it goes either way and the tab with the results is called “YA before and after testing”. I really don’t think YA has that much of an influence on his levels, but at this point, I’m willing to try anything to get these numbers down. We’ll give it at least a week to see if pulling YA makes a difference.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I'd also be curious if you didn't feed quite so close to shot time what would happen. If you have a timed feeder, you could set it for PM +8 and see if that has any effect on the pre-shot numbers.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

I agree with Sienne. My Bubba was so carb sensitive that I couldn't feed him past PM +8 without it affecting his numbers.

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

I'd also be curious if you didn't feed quite so close to shot time what would happen. If you have a timed feeder, you could set it for PM +8 and see if that has any effect on the pre-shot numbers.

Well he was 413 +8 then I fed him some YA, and he was a happy boy, and tested 423 at +12. Should I have gotten a +10? We do have automatic feeders.

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

Poor babies! Just keep an eye on his BG. If YA really is that low carb, you won’t see a big change in BG but I’m not so convinced it is as LC as they say.

Good thoughts coming your way! Paws crossed.

Well he was 413 +8 then I fed him some YA, and he was a happy boy, and tested 423 at +12. Only 10 points different. I think I should have gotten a +10.

 

[Penelope and Mačka]

Regarding LC dry food (talking here about Young Again 0% and Dr Elsey 4%), can someone explain again why it's not compatible with TR, since they are as LC as Fancy Feast? Thanks!!

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Regarding LC dry food (talking here about Young Again 0% and Dr Elsey 4%), can someone explain again why it's not compatible with TR, since they are as LC as Fancy Feast? Thanks!!

There has been discussion about YA and other “LC” dry foods over the years and the bottom line is dry is dry. We don’t have enough documentation to determine how long they take to raise the BG in low numbers or how long they would last in the system even if they only caused a small bump.

The TR protocol has a requirement of feeding canned or raw food. I was just emailing with a Kirsten Roomp of Roomp and Rand, the TR protocol writers; she is also the German FD forum owner and she developed the TR protocol with her cat, Tilly. I asked her if they had members in the German forum, where everyone does TR, who feed a “LC” dry food and she said that no.....everyone who posts there knows they have to get their cat off dry food.

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

Regarding LC dry food (talking here about Young Again 0% and Dr Elsey 4%), can someone explain again why it's not compatible with TR, since they are as LC as Fancy Feast? Thanks!!

TR is based on a specific control experiment that used wet and raw food only. I haven’t seen the documentation to determine how long fancy feast or other wet low carb food takes to raise the BG in numbers or how long they would last in the system even if they only caused a small bump. This is why I’m testing on my own to figure out the great mystery. My guy is sad without dry, and I’m okay giving it to him as long as it doesn’t raise him more than fancy feast. We shall continue our journey and report back.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

@Penelope and Mačka - I think @Chris & China (GA) contacted YA and the 0% dry is really about 5% carb. It's low but it's not "zero" percent. Years ago I heard the company speak at a cat show. I didn't fully buy their promotion about just how "low carb" their food was. Like Marje said, dry food is still dry food.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

@Penelope and Mačka - I think @Chris & China (GA) contacted YA and the 0% dry is really about 5% carb. It's low but it's not "zero" percent. Years ago I heard the company speak at a cat show. I didn't fully buy their promotion about just how "low carb" their food was. Like Marje said, dry food is still dry food.

is this really the case? their website gives nutritional info on dry matter basis and claims to have carbs of less than 1%
https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/zero-formula.html

 

[Sara and Mr. Kitty]

is this really the case? their website gives nutritional info on dry matter basis and claims to have carbs of less than 1%
https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/zero-formula.html

Mr. Kitty ate YA while he was in remission and his BG was fine, but that changed once he came out of remission so I stopped giving it to him (he only had a small amount anyways) and he's doing much better; however, we are also on a higher insulin dose now then when I was feeding the dry. Anyways, I wanted to be more aggressive with dosing and it seems to be working.

We did an experiment with testing and YA and the results are on a separate tab on my spreadsheet if you care to take a look.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

@Chris & China (GA) contacted the manufacturer. Let's see what she has to say.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

@Chris & China (GA) contacted the manufacturer. Let's see what she has to say.

Wasn't me, but the main problem I have with YA is their sales pitch. They come very close to guaranteeing that as long as you feed ONLY their food, your cat will go into remission. They even discourage feeding low carb canned.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

I contacted the manufacturer yesterday and I got the attached nutritional information sheet from them. Its pretty much what is there on the website.

To quote their email - "Our Zero formulas contain less than 1% starch/carbs by lab analysis. Our Mature or cat and kitten formulas contain less than 6%. "

Is there a reason why their Zero formula of kibble should affect BG any differently from low carb canned? I understand that canned is better due to its moisture content in terms of hydrating the kitty.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

I gave Bubba a small amount of YA along with a raw diet. I saw absolutely no increase in his BGs. The ONLY reason I discontinued it was because he developed an allergy to pork and chicken both of which are in their formula.


You’ll want to make sure he eats mostly wet and gets enough water. I added water to Bubbas food each meal.

 

[Waheeda]

When my boy had diabetes the first time, I gave him YA and his bg dropped by 100 and I do believe YA helped in his remission. While in remission for 2 1/2 years, he had wet food plus graze on YA. His bg wasn’t affected at all. So I’m puzzled why I have to get rid of YA if I want to do TR. It’s hard for me to remove it cos some days when he’s bored of his wet food, he’ll graze more on YA. And my 2 civvies also eat YA. Perhaps the person who creates the protocol isn’t aware of YA?

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

When my boy had diabetes the first time, I gave him YA and his bg dropped by 100 and I do believe YA helped in his remission. While in remission for 2 1/2 years, he had wet food plus graze on YA. His bg wasn’t affected at all. So I’m puzzled why I have to get rid of YA if I want to do TR. It’s hard for me to remove it cos some days when he’s bored of his wet food, he’ll graze more on YA. And my 2 civvies also eat YA. Perhaps the person who creates the protocol isn’t aware of YA?

When giving dry food no matter what % the carbs are, the food is processed out of their system much slower. That is why SLGS is the method you need to follow. TR is an aggressive protocol raising the dose every 3 days. It’s a safeguard to going slower with dry food on board.

 

[Waheeda]

When giving dry food no matter what % the carbs are, the food is processed out of their system much slower. That is why SLGS is the method you need to follow. TR is an aggressive protocol raising the dose every 3 days. It’s a safeguard to going slower with dry food on board.

We were on vetsulin the first time and aggressive too. I changed dose every 3 days, the only difference is it’s based on preshot values. So if I’m on SLGS, can I leave YA for them to graze all the way till just before preshoot? That’s what I did when we were on vetsulin. Or do I need to remove everythg 2 hours prior to preshot?

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

We were on vetsulin the first time and aggressive too. I changed dose every 3 days, the only difference is it’s based on preshot values. So if I’m on SLGS, can I leave YA for them to graze all the way till just before preshoot? That’s what I did when we were on vetsulin. Or do I need to remove everythg 2 hours prior to preshot?

You would need to remove all food 2 hours prior to pre shot to know that the number wasn’t elevated by food.