new and confused

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carrieannn

Member Since 2013
So there I was, thinking I was doing everything right...feeding a homemade raw diet (Dr. Lisa Piersons recipe), fresh water, exercise etc. and then things just went wrong. My cat Monkey is a 14 year old neutered male, 15 lbs. He has recently been diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis causing diabetes. My vet also suspects possible kidney disease but was very unclear. Monkey has been on insulin for a week and a half (2 units, twice daily) and that seems to be going smoothly. He has a good appetite except when the pancreatitis flares up (2 times in the last 4 months), but had been losing weight consistently. He hasn't been weighed since he started the insulin, but he has a follow-up vet visit in a few days.

I have read about doing home blood testing with a glucometer, but first and foremost I want to figure out his diet, and I am very confused. The vet is recommending he start the "w/d" prescription food, Hill's I think. But when I read the ingredients list I see the first ingredient is brewer's rice?! I don't get why a diabetic cat should eat a food full of carbs? Currently I feed him Dr. Lisa Piersons homemade raw food diet, but if he has kidney issues I am concerned about the phosphorus levels.

So I guess my main question to start is:
1. What on earth should I be feeding him, knowing he has pancreatits and diabetes, and assuming he has early stages of kidney disease?
 
Hi Carrieannn,
Welcome! While I can't offer you advice on the questions you are asking, I can offer to send you (free of course) a brand new Bayer Contour Glucose meter. I think home testing is just as important as diet. So I know the more experienced members will help you with diet and other great information.

Please let me know if you are interested in the meter.

Again, welcome!
 
It is hard when you have several things going on, besides the diabetes, which is difficult in itself. But we do have people dealing with these issues. This website is great for kidney issues: http://www.felinecrf.org Here is a lot of information about pancreatitis: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=83108 You can also do a phone consult with Dr. Lisa and ask her specifically about your kitty's issues and the raw diet. Info on how to contact her is here catinfo.org

And I would urge you to hometest. It is the easiest way to be sure your kitty is safe. Just ask Leah who replied to you first. Her vet prescribed 6 units of insulin and she had a hypo the first night she was testing. We have taught hundreds of people how over the internet and we'd be glad to teach you.

What kind of insulin are you using?

Let us know how we can help.
 
I too am feeding my sugarcat a raw diet per Dr. Pierson's recipe. I think it is better than anything you will ever find in a can. I don't know anything about the affect of phospherous on the kidneys but I haven't seen any kind of warnings about phospherous levels on catinfo.org, catnutrition.org or in Michelle Bernard's book, "Raising Cats Naturally"

I agree though, that you should home test and this board will give you all the help and advice on doing that.
 
Carrieannn,

Please consider home testing. If I mail you a meter, would you use it? I can't stress how important it is, and I am a one of the newer members of this family, but I can attest to its importance. If it weren't for home testing, and seeing that my Jezzis BG was lower to begin with, and using my gut feeling about giving her a full dose of 6U, the consequences could have been grave. I then used the meter, along with advice from experience members here, who stayed up with me well into the wee hours, to test and administer karo syrup to get her number up. It's now an important part of my day and in keeping my cat healthy.

Leah
 
Thanks for your responses so far everyone. I do plan on doing home blood glucose testing, and I can pick a glucometer up here (Ontario, Canada) fairly inexpensively, but thanks for the offers :smile: My vet looked concerned when I suggested home testing, and was concerned that I would consider changing the insulin dose... but people do it everyday, so it's not rocket science, right? The insulin Monkey is on is called 'Caninsulin' which is only available in Canada I'm told.

Home testing is the next thing on my list after diet change. Ideally I would like to continue feeding him a raw diet, but I can't afford a private consultation with Dr. Pierson of catinfo.org for a diabetes/pancreatitis/kidney disease recipe. I would consider switching Monkey to a canned commercial food, but these "prescription diets" are worrisome. There's so much conflicting info out there that I'm confused. Any thoughts on food options?
 
I'd stick with Dr. Lisa's food you've been feeding and if his phosphorous levels are high enough to be a concern, look into whether a phosphorous binder can be added to the raw food.

kidney disease comes in all stages and naturally happens with age so as a kitty gets older i've learned it's pretty much to be expected. what you have to do about it is determined by how progressed the disease is.

have you seen tanya's crf page? if not it is www.felinecrf.org and is probably the most comprehensive when it comes to kidney disease. maybe give it a read thru as you get a chance and see if it helps with the dietary concerns
 
The insulin Monkey is on is called 'Caninsulin' which is only available in Canada I'm told.
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Well, I'm surprised at your vet for prescribing Caninsulin for a cat.It would be a good insulin if you were treating a dog. Unfortunately, you have a diabetic cat. The reason Caninsulin is not good for a cat, is because a cats metabolism is twice as fast as a dogs, using up the insulin too quickly. You want the insulin to be available for the entire 24 hours in a day, not for only part of the time.

Caninsulin is also used in the UK, and diabetic cat owners there are forced to use this less than ideal insulin, until they can prove it is not working for their cat.

Better insulins for use in a cat are Lantus, Levimir and PZI or Prozinc. Lantus and Levimir are long duration insulins, usually 14-18 hours so they have what is called overlap. PZI and Prozinc are vet specific insulins and are in and out types. In other words, once PZI is used by the body, roughly after 10 hours, there is no more insulin in the cats body to process the food and keep the Blood Glucose (BG) numbers from rising again.

These insulins give you a better chance of remission in your cat than the caninsulin does. Remission should be the goal per University of Queensland studies and articles, not simply regulation of the numbers. Remission can not happen for every cat but why not strive for that brass ring and give your cat the best possible chance?

Since you live in Canada, you can buy insulin over the counter at your local pharmacy/druggist's. I really would suggest you get one of the better, longer duration insulins.

Link to help you understand the latest in food management for cats and dogs with diabetes is the AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats, a vet journal article published in 2010. Basically, it advises feeding your cat "the food with the lowest amount of carbs your cat will tolerate". http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf You might want to print out two copies, one for you and one to politely pass along to your vet.

His suggestion to feed the high carb/ high fiber Hill's W/D food is about 6-8 years out of date with current research.
 
Pffft! Time to find yourself a more up to date vet. I live in Oshawa and I use lantus for both my cats!!

I can buy lantus (which is a great insulin for cats) from shoppers,Costco, and pretty much any pharmacy! No prescription needed. A pack of five 3ml pens will last you up to six months (or more) for $99 from Costco Canada. Or you can get a 10ml vial for $75.

The thing is that most meters are generally cheap but they get you $$ on the strips. Plus some meters (the freestyle and some of the "true" being a good example) aren't great for cats at mid to high blood glucose levels. You can get a free reliable bayer contour meter and free strips using the info below. They send it within a few days.

Where in Ontario do you live? If close to the border you could get a relion from the US walmarts and strips and they are cheapest. I can't be bothered with the drive so I order my bayer contour strips online from eBay much cheaper than in stores here, although you can get points if you get them in shoppers.

Free meter offer for Canadians
You can get a free bayer contour USB meter and 25 strips if you go to http://www.bayerdiabetes.ca/BDoffer and use code "BDS 11-14" And then if you register the meter when it arrives, you get a free USB wall charger. Its a reliable meter.
This offer was in the flyer comes inside the BD ultra fine 3/10cc syringes you get in Walmart Canada. I used a similar one six months ago and it worked great so bayer seem to run it a lot.
 
Hello and welcome from another Canadian, but out west. My vet started us on Caninsulin, but it wasn't lasting long enough. Neko was always high ages before dinner. Unfortunately Caninsulin is the common answer for vets here who aren't up on the latest. A locum vet started us on Lantus and it's been a much better experience. My Neko is on raw food, but manufactured, not Dr. Lisa's recipe. Depending on the protein you use, most raw foods are pretty low in phosphorus. I'd stay away from fish or rabbit, but if you are using chicken as per the recipe, you should be OK. The supplier I use has had a lab do the As Fed By analysis for their products, and all the proteins I serve are lower in phosphorus than most canned foods.

There are a number of members here dealing with both CRF and diabetes. If you look at Dr. Lisa's food list there are some canned foods with low carbs (less than 10%) and low phosphorus (under 200), should you want to do canned instead of raw. The chart shows the prescription foods too, including W/D which is very high carb but lower phosphorus. There are better choices on the pet store shelf.
 
Thanks for promo code on the Bayer Contour Wendy. I'll order one right away. I definitely want to do a BG curve.

I spoke to my vet earlier today about the urinalysis done on Tuesday. He still has a high glucose, 3, in the urine sample, taken just before his next dose of insulin. So the Caninsulin isn't quite doing the job yet.

To throw another wrench into things Monkey has a high red blood cell count in his urine, even after being on antibiotics (Aventiclav) for 2 weeks....more tests needed to figure that out. It's getting pretty discouraging and expensive.

On a good note though, the blood work showed normal phosphorus levels, which was a concern if he does have CKD. Also his creatine and BUN levels were normal, meaning the CKD is not advanced. So I guess I will keep feeding the homemade raw food (Dr. Lisa's recipe). I was really starting to doubt myself on that.

Thanks for all your help everyone. It's nice to talk to people who've been through it.
 
carrieannn said:
Thanks for promo code on the Bayer Contour Wendy. I'll order one right away. I definitely want to do a BG curve.

I spoke to my vet earlier today about the urinalysis done on Tuesday. He still has a high glucose, 3, in the urine sample, taken just before his next dose of insulin. So the Caninsulin isn't quite doing the job yet.

To throw another wrench into things Monkey has a high red blood cell count in his urine, even after being on antibiotics (Aventiclav) for 2 weeks....more tests needed to figure that out. It's getting pretty discouraging and expensive.

On a good note though, the blood work showed normal phosphorus levels, which was a concern if he does have CKD. Also his creatine and BUN levels were normal, meaning the CKD is not advanced. So I guess I will keep feeding the homemade raw food (Dr. Lisa's recipe). I was really starting to doubt myself on that.

Thanks for all your help everyone. It's nice to talk to people who've been through it.
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Caninsulin is lousy, but you're in luck... you are in Canada so you don't need any prescription or OK from a vet.
Just go to the nearest pharmacy or a place like Shopper's Drug Mart and buy whatever insulin you like.
Tell the pharmacist you want a pack of Lantus, or Levemir, and you're set.
Don't waste anymore time with Caninsulin.

Stick to the raw diet from Dr. Lisa's site; it's terrific for the cats.

Forget about all the expensive stuff your vet wants you to get done. Just get your meter and strips, a container of KETOSTIX to test urine for ketones, and a pack of insulin either Lantus or Levemir.

Gayle
 
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