New...and Confused

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so after Cully managed to lose almost 1.5 lbs in 6 weeks, I took him to a new vet. He just had his first insulin shot last night.

Because I'm crazed and terrified of hypoglycemia, I went out and purchased a blood glucometer. This morning, the test was administered successfully, and his glucose reading was...

123!

And that's 13 hrs after the last glucose shot.

given everything i've obsessively read overnight, i decided to feed him a bit, not administer the insulin and test again at 8am. i'd rather be safe (rise in blood glucose) than sorry (hypoglycemia before the vet opens)

fingers crossed this was the right decision.

maybe?

(oh, my head hurts)
 
If we had an applause smiley I would use it.

You did the right thing, especially by getting and learning how to use the glucometer so quickly.

Also, can you tell us either how high the blood glucose was at the vet's and if a test called a fructosamine was done? The test shows the average blood glucose level over a period of about 2 weeks. It is not good to use to determine dose, but should be used to confirm the diabetes diagnosis. Cats can stress when at the vet's and that increases their glucose level, sometimes by enough to make it seem they are diabetic.

It may simply be that your cat simply doesn't need as much insulin as prescribed. We can help you with that. I can't be online anymore this morning but others will be dropping by.
 
Hi Girlunraveled, You did EXACTLY the right thing and thank god you tested him!
So of course we would love to know the insulin and the prescribed dose.
And after that we would like to know if you have changed his diet after his diagnosis.
That could dramatically reduce his blood glucose (bg's)
I am glad you are here.
Lori
Name?
 
Cully is on 1 unit of Lantus (U-100 syringe).

about 2 hours after feeding, did another test (which did not go as smoothly as the first) and glucose was up to 158 so I gave a dose. He seems to be doing fine and is annoyed at me every time i wake him up (he's snoozing, not going into a diabetic coma!).

still getting up to eat (his food, as well as almost my yarn-this is a good sign as he was not interested in it before. don't worry, i didn't let him eat it!).

i figure i'll do another test at about noon, which will put us to 4 hours after the dose and i'll keep checking and charting and decide what to do tonight.

and the vet immediately put him on Hill's m/d, which thankfully, kitty LOVED! it was the first time in almost 2 weeks that he ate more than 2-3 oz in a day. his new vet is great. he was almost as upset as i was when he saw the lab results (taken 6 weeks ago at old vet) that clearly showed that followup needed to be done for glucose.

thank you, everyone, for your help and support. Cully is my 15 yr old baby and until yesterday, has been ridiculously healthy. so this sudden decline and diagnosis threw me for one heck of a loop.

Edited to add the rest of the blood tests are being done, but the initial urine and blood test at the vet's were WELL over normal. we go back for a checkup on Monday where we should have the results. and I'll bring in my chart of home tests as well.

and as for names. Mine is Rebecca :)

his is Cuchulainn, Cully for short, kittenpants to some, lint when he won't stop climbing me, my little lemur when i'm playing "catch the tail" with him...

ok, off to buy more testing strips. we used up 5 in the last test. oops. :)
 
Lantus is a good insulin - mild and long lasting. It is different in that it builds up a shed so it needs consistent dosing. We have a Lantus support group that has some great info on how Lantus works, how to dose, etc. This is the page: viewforum.php?f=9 Down the page a little, under the grey bar are starred topics. They are packed with need information.

Hills MD is certainly better than dry food. It is 14% carbs: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html We try to stay under 8-10%. And it is very expensive. Most of us on a budget feed Fancy Feast or Friskies, or if we want a higher quality food - Wellness or Merrick. When you read the ingredients for prescription cat food, there are no
"prescription" ingredients. We think the regular cat food is a better choice. But if he is eating it, that is important. If he gets bored with it, you might try a lower carb food.
 
Cully had been on Wellness for almost 9 yrs. The Hill's diet is actually cheaper than the Wellness (gotta love NYC)! But about 2 months ago, he basically stopped eating it. right now, i'm just happy that he's eating anything! but i'll certainly bring it up with my doctor since that Carb percentage seems a bit high.

and thanks for the forum recommendations. i need to take Cully's blood test and then I NEED to take a nap. I didn't sleep at all last night and am almost a zombie.

in fact, just came back from grocery shopping to realize I never locked my apartment door. yep, time for sleep!
 
these are the readings i was able to take today. and I don't understand them at all.

6:10 am 123mg/dl. 2.25oz of food and no insulin
8:14 am 153mg/dl. 2 hours post main feeding. 1unit of insulin.
3pm (+7) 178mg/dl. wasn't able to take earlier reading due to difficulty w/ meter and stress levels of cat (and human)
7:30pm (+11) 155mg/dl. 2.25oz of food and 1 unit of insulin.

i want to get him on an insulin schedule of every 12 hours at 7:30 (am and pm)

he's peed, he's pooped.

the only other thing is that he's still nibbling on his cat grass, which i hope is ok b/c he LOVES it and keeps him regular and pretty hairball free.

really not sure what to make of his numbers, but i can't test in the middle of the night. if i don't get some sleep, there will be dire consequences.
 
Let me understand. That +7, is that 7 hours after your last shot? And sorry if I did'nt catch it on the thread...but how much did you shoot?
This is a flat line but slighty inverse curve...in any event...I would not shoot a dropping number.
So I guess what I am asking is...how much did you shoot, and is that what the +7 reprents.
And then...test at +12 and DO NOT shoot a still dropping number.
Lori
 
Lori
It says 1u just after 8am so yes the 3pm was +7.
But this was yesterday i believe? And then the 1u at +11 ish into a possibly dropping number?
Sure don't see much if any action from a decent amount of juice into "low" numbers...
Carl

Edit to add- and that 153 at 8am... the rise was food boosted.
 
Is'nt this kitty coming off an overdose?
So, no, I would not shoot a dropping number becuase Lantus unlike PZI can sometimes have a very late nadir. Often Tom would nadir at +12 and I could'nt shoot until I was sure he was done.
As a CIALLY for newbie overdose kitties it would be a good idea to never shoot a dropping number.
So, today this kitty should be curved again...
Remember Carl, sometimes flat...sometimes inverse...means too much insulin.
But the folks over in tight regulation may take issue with this.....
This is not tight regulation...and this is just a brand new, out of the womb newbie. Play gently.
Lori
 
Lori,
I'm confused...I definitely am not saying she should have shot. She did though, into a "rising number" that was only rising from food. So I don't think it was really rising. I wouldn't have shot either time. I don't care if it was TR, which it isn't and I don't see a number in this thread that I would have advised a "newbie" to shoot into at all. I think you and me are in agreement about all of it.
Carl
 
yikes. now i'm more confused.

but kitty seems to be holding his own.

reading this morning was 168 at 7:30am. fed and shot 1unit.
took a reading at 4:30 (+9) and BG was 162. so pretty much no difference. (and hasn't eaten a bunch, which is different from yesterday)

we have a followup visit at the vet tomorrow. i'm just going to show him the numbers and see what he thinks.

thanks everyone!
 
Sorry you have been confused further.
I reeeelly hope your vet does not consider these numbers a reason to raise dose.

I think what would really help you...and help us too, is to get a spread sheet up.
Sue and Oliver help folks get this up all the time, and then it is linked here everytime you post.
I will pm (private message) her to give you a hand with that ok.

Lori
 
Thanks Lori! I would appreciate the help!

Because his numbers are sticking over 100 and under 200, I'm not too freaked. Everything that I'm reading seems to say that these are decent (not great, but decent) numbers for a diabetic cat. Just seems weird that nothing is moving in any direction.

I suspect my vet is fairly conservative (I think he was affected by the look on my face when he explained the risk of hypoglycemia to me) so we'll see what he says.

this cat will be the death of me ;)
 
Rebecca,
I think I may have started the "confusion" issue with my reply earlier to Lori, and she and I probably should have had that conversation by PM rather than in the middle of your thread.

I'll try to remove the confusion if I can.

There are, when it comes down to it, two basic different ways that insulin works.
First, the type of insulin you are NOT using -
I'll call them "one shot insulins" - PZI, Prozinc, Humulin, Vetsulin would be some of the names of them. They can be short term or intermediate term insulins. They start taking effect an hour or so, maybe two hours after shooting. They tend to pretty aggressively counteract increases in blood glucose due to carb intake from eating, not too long after the food is digested and converted into glucose by the cat's system. They can last from 4-10 hours, depending on the specific type. And then once they "expire", there's no insulin from the shot still in the kitty's system. "Once it's done, it's gone" is a good way to think of it.

The other type of insulin would be Lantus like you are using, and another used a lot called Levemir. They are both "human" insulins which are also ideal for cats. They work very differently than the "one-shot" insulins. They are sometimes called "depot" type insulin. The way they work is that when you begin dosing with them, they build up a reserve (depot) in the kitty's body. Here we call it the "shed". After a few days, you have filled the shed with a supply of insulin. Gradually the cat will "withdraw" from the shed to attempt to lower blood glucose levels. When you shoot each 12 hours, you are "refilling" the shed. These "L" insulins enable you to basically always have insulin in the cat's system, 24 hours a day. The body will try to use enough to keep the BG down when it rises, and then you are the source of replenishing the supply so that it is there when kitty needs it.

Curves - With "one shot" insulin, the curve - which starts at shot time, goes low about 6 hours later ideally, and then ends at the next shot time 12 hours later, the ideal curve shape would look like a smile. Say you start at 300, go down to 150, and then back up to 300 in 12 hours. If you plot that on a graph, it would look like a nice smile.

With depot type insulin, the curve (If I say this wrong, some L user please correct me?) is usually a smaller smile. Not a flat line, but not a deep curve either. Because insulin is always present, the ideal thing would be for the insulin to keep the BG fairly even, with a little dip in the middle.

But with any insulin, there are curve shapes that can indicate that the dose is too high. If you see a flat line, and never any downward improvement in the numbers, that can indicate a dose that is either too high, or too low. Confusing enough for you? The other shape that catches your attention is one that is "inverse". I like to refer to it as a "frown", because that is what it looks like plotted on a graph. The BG actually goes up during the time when the insulin is supposed to be pushing it down, which is counter to logic. It usually indicates that some kind of "rebound" is going on due to excessive insulin. Kitty's body actually will fight the insulin, and release glucose into the bloodstream, resulting in higher BG readings.

With the numbers that you have been getting on tests, and the 1 unit dose you are shooting, there is very little reason to believe that 1 unit is too low of a dose. However, if you are seeing "flat" curves, it could indicate that the dose is actually too high. That is why Lori commented that she hopes your vet doesn't recommend a dose increase when they see those numbers. It is very unlikely that an increase is needed with BG readings as low as you are getting at the pre-shot tests. I don't use Lantus, but I am almost certain that experienced lantus users would advise that the dose needs to be lower rather than higher. (really hoping one of them drops in and 2nds that).

Rising Number at shot time - It is very important, no matter which insulin you use, that the BG number is coming up when you administer a dose. If it is dropping and you shoot, the effect of the insulin would be greater than normal, and the BG can drop more than you expect. With numbers as low as you are dealing with, that can be risky if kitty goes really low.
So, when you test, if you don't see a number at shot time that is obviously higher than the last test you took, you need to hold off on shooting and feeding for 30 minutes or so. Then test again to see if you get a higher number. It is important that you do not give him any food while waiting, even if he insists it is time to eat! Food makes the BG rise, but it is supposed to do that. You don't want the rising number to be just the result of eating. We call that a "false high reading". You want the increase to be caused by the fact that he needs insulin, and his body will tell you that when you check his BG. This is what I meant when I remarked to Lori
"a "rising number" that was only rising from food"
When you got a higher number
8:14 am 153mg/dl. 2 hours post main feeding. 1unit of insulin.
that higher number was due to the food eaten 2 hours earlier. It was a "food boost" rise. Without food, it may not have gone up at all, and may even have dropped further. So with food in the equation, you can't be sure of the reason that the BG is going up. It's just a variable in the equation, and confuses things.

Well, hope that helps. And please everybody else, if I didn't get that right, please correct me. This dance is hard enough to learn for newer members without me or anyone else throwing incorrect information at them!

Carl in SC
 
so the vet was EXTREMELY happy about Cully's numbers. when he got to the office, his BG shot up to 330, but both the vet and i attribute that to a) the stress of going to the vet in the first place and b) being greeted by a very large dog the minute he got there (Cully HATES dogs).

all of his BG readings in the last 24 hours have hovered around the 168 mark, so the vet is comfortable keeping him at the 1 unit of insulin. as long as the number is over 150 just before feeding (and shooting), the vet is fine with the levels we are at. if the numbers begin to go below 150, the vet wants me to hold off on shooting the unit and retest (without food for a couple of hours). if the numbers over all trend downwards, then the vet is hoping that the diabetes will reverse itself and we can control it with diet.

and i'm to keep taking readings at least twice a day (more if kitty will let me-that's been a struggle but we are both getting better at it) and email them to the doctor every week. the doctor was really pleased with the initiative i took with getting the glucometer and so i think i may have found the right vet for us!

and now, maybe i'll actually sleep tonight :) wouldn't that be nice?
 
a huge thanks to Sue and Oliver for helping me set up Cully's spreadsheet. my doctor is going to love it!

i'm planning on doing a mini-curve tomorrow or Wednesday and will be able to post +3, +6, and +9 readings.

thanks everyone!
 
Yay....! you are doing so well. Congragulations on all your recent accomplishments
 
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