Need smarter eyes than mine...

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Barb & Mr. Frog

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Hi all, it's been quite a while since I've posted here, but I do read here often still. I feel lately like I've completely lost control of Frog's BG levels. He was doing so well for so long, with teensy tiny doses and lately that is just not the case anymore.
There are a number of what I feel may be contributing factors, but for the most part they aren't really correctable at the moment.
1. Possible tooth infection? vet said it would be up to $1000 to pull it - insane, I cant afford that
2. Foods, there are only a couple left of the fancy feast classics that he or any of my cats, will even eat anymore, have been using the chunky turkey/chicken a lot - can't afford better than FF, and my cats wont touch the friskies except the one special diet chicken w/ gravy.. which of course, I cannot give to Frog - tho he has stolen a bite here or there - Frog eats the beef classic one far more often than the chunky tho
3. Stress - because of the food issues, they've all become somewhat moody, and combative
4. Insulin is getting older @ six months, will be heading to the vet in a few weeks- they wont just sell me insulin, have to have the whole shebang (I don't believe the insulin is the whole issue if its the issue at all, since it IS still working, although needing higher doses may be directly due to this, it still doesn't explain (to me) the high pre-shot numbers... and the randomly low preshot numbers by comparison

That said, I thought perhaps maybe you folks could see some pattern in his SS that I don't, or perhaps I need a more concrete sliding scale... I've basically been just dosing according to whatever his pre-shot is, and getting mids whenever I reasonably can. I have some free time this coming week so I could get more mid cycle tests if they're needed at specific times.

I hate seeing so much purple on his ss, I know it leaves him feeling like crap being so high lately, he sleeps a lot but he is still purry and seems generally in good health other than the bouts of semi-dehydration when the sugar goes too high.. tho he bounces back on his own from that, I haven't needed to intervene on that issue so far

One other thing I've noticed, frequently (not every time, but maybe 90%+) is that Frog is coming to me about 1 hour before his shot is due (+10 - +11) begging, for the shot, it seems to me... could I, with this insulin dose him 11 hour cycles? The times when he doesn't come to me early, I usually find him sound asleep. I don't know, I'm literally just lost :(
 
Hi Barb,

Nice to "see" you again but sorry Frog is not doing as well. I certainly can't guarantee a smarter set of eyes, just a different set. :-D

It certainly could be the tooth. Any type of infection can raise bg levels. I think I'd start with that possibility and, while scouting around for another vet - maybe a dental specialist- who might be more reasonable- up the dose a smidge.

If you could get a curve and see how long he goes and whether his nadir is in the +6 range or earlier or later, then you could figure how much to raise. It seems like upping to a .4 on a pink and maybe keeping .3 on a yellow might work, but I'd be sure he isn't dropping someplace in the cycle, lower than you think.

As far as the food, could you add things to it to make it new and exciting? forti Flora or crumpled up Pure Bites or warm water to make a gravy or Parmesan cheese?
 
I actually have a full box of fortiflora still, and NONE of them will touch food with it on now.... they loved it when I first got it, now.. no go. Putting the purebites on the foods only works when its one of the foods they already will eat, I even tried putting a little of the friskies gravy on the classics, they wont have it, licked the gravy off, left the food to rot. They will eat some of the fish varieties still, but I don't give them those very often, maybe once a week or so. They also will not eat the food at all if I add water now... even a single teaspoon :( I tried parmesan, they don't seem to think it is edible

Should I do every 3 hours for the curve? Or every two? He won't like it, but I can deal with that short term
 
Darn, they are picky. You might check out Dr. lisa's food list and see if the Petco/Petsmart brands are on it. I don't know anything about them but I have heard people mention them. Also Special Kitty is supposed to be less expensive?

I'd get the ones most likely to give you info - +3 to see where he is headed, +5/6 or 7 and then maybe 8/9 to see if he is headed up and how fast. I'd let the numbers you get first guide your next test. So if it looks like he is definitely headed down at +5, then get a +7 etc.
 
If it were me....

I would find a wet food that they would all eat even if it is one with higher carb levels.. If that means you need to increase the dosage of his shots, so be it. That isn't the end of the world.
 
Hi Barb and Frog. I sure hope Frog gets better soon. His numbers were doing so well. I thought I would share with you what I have had to do a few times to help increase Merlin's interest in his food. I did all the things that Sue has mentioned and if any of those did not work, my very last resort would be to take a can of tuna packed in water and put it in my blender. I would add water and then blend it up. Then I would take about a teaspoon or less (very little) and drip it over his food. I never give him fish so I don't feel bad about giving it to him during an emergency situation a few times.
 
Hi, thank you for the replies. To clarify, Frog eats well..... he will just only eat the beef, and the chopped grill of the classics.. and the chopped grill has fish in it by my understanding, so he gets it less often (which he is ok with since he doesn't 'love it' anyway), and he will eat the chunky turkey /chicken. Every once in awhile, maybe once every other week or so, he will eat the liver and chicken classic. Frog will eat some of the flaky fish varieties, but I tend to avoid them where possible because most are too high carb. Tuna, however is NOT one of the foods he will eat, cat food style OR people style... he loves drinking the 'water' off of it sometimes, but doesn't actually want the fish.

@Sue I started with that brand before I went to the FF, they treated it the same way they treat friskies... drag over whatever they can find and bury it, then recommence begging for food 'look mom, its all gone'

@Carl, I have really really considered doing that, honestly the only thing that stops me is that I hate it when I can tell his sugar is high.. he hates it too, he begs for the shot far too frequently. I think I need to get them back on the dry (they did like the zero carb food, I just think its silly paying $130 for ONE bag of food... I have twelve cats to feed)

I intended to have a full curve for last night, but I fell asleep before the +9 and didn't wake, so I'll try again today.
 
Based on yesterdays numbers I feel like I should be raising his dose up MUCH higher than I have been, but then, just two weeks ago (5-12) he had a huge drop from the .4 so I'm positively frightened of raising it much more, I've no clue what to do, or think :(
 
It does look like you could go up. Maybe .5 unit for 3 cycles, getting some nadirs in? If he is still high, then raise by another .25 again? He is in higher numbers, but is on a tiny dose, so I would be cautious and raise the dose slowly, monitoring carefully.
 
Just looking for confirmation, going to raise to .75 tonight, unless you say otherwise.
I'm going to call the vet on Tuesday, I feel certain this insulin is going/gone bad.
 
Yes, I think I'd go up, Barb.

Usually when the insulin goes back, it has flakes in it. Does yours? Often, with bad insulin, you see a pretty big jump up to higher numbers overall. He is still dropping midycle, just higher than he was. It'll be interesting whether a little more insulin gets him into a better range.
 
Thanks Sue, no the insulin is the same as it has always been, opaque and cloudy, but smooth and even, I don't see anything that looks 'flaky'

I will start .75 tonight... oy, I don't know if I'll get any sleep
 
You can always get an early number around +3 to see how things are headed. If he is not dropping fast, it is likely he won't take a plunge overnight?
 
I chickened out on the .75 last night, because he was under 300, I did bump to .6 (based on similar number from the curve day), but then got a really high number at +5, could that be a bounce? I'm puzzled with these numbers, I thought a bounce would leave him much higher, but if it wasn't a bounce, what the heck is it, lol?
 
That is unexpected, but if you consider the 20% variance, the whole cycle looks a little flat, and he did drop a little for amps (or stay flat if we want to consider the variance). I'd figure it's one cycle, one number and continue with the plan. His amps is better than the last cycle so let's see how today shakes out.
 
How old is the insulin? (Having recently had that problem myself! And it looked fine!)
 
I am actually pretty certain at this point that the insulin is bad, that would explain the higher number last night, and now again tonight... I'm testing soonish after food, and seeing the spike, then he is naturally bringing himself down..... just not down far enough (maybe I'm off my rocker, but that's the only thing that makes sense of these numbers lately) Anyway, I called the vet today, but didn't get a callback, on whether they'll just sell me the insulin, I know they probably wont without an exam, but I'm going to try to convince them anyway.
 
(((((((((((((Barb & Frog))))))))))))) sending tons of healing green light your way ......for better numbers your way.

I have 5 cats and yes they are very fussy and will only eat the fish in friskies and FF is not much better only a beef and fish. The others get control dry I limit the amount each meal 2 of them will not eat can only a tiny bit......Cats and someone told me they have no taste buds.... :lol: Kath
 
They can smell scents, though. My dad once did a marketing research study and found out that with the right fat on it, cats will eat almost anything!
 
Well, it took literally all day to get ahold of the vet, they finally gave me permission to just pick up the insulin... ten minutes before closing time :roll: I made it tho, got the new insulin, so the next couple days will tell for sure. Thanks to all of you guys for your help and care :)
 
need help again

Ok, now I'm not sure how to proceed. I gave him .2 when I got home from the vet, ( +8 from the am) and I've been testing him a lot, since I wasn't sure what to expect with new insulin vs old .. but he's been essentially flat the whole time. Do I hold off dosing more until he clears this... I guess bounce? Should I dose more, maybe .2 is not enough at this point?

At any rate, I have to get at least some sleep, and I have a lot to do tomorrow, so I definitely wont be able to get so many tests, but I'll do what I can. (he's getting pretty antsy about the testing, I'm clearly crossing the line) ... Because of how long I'll be out tomorrow, I will likely hold his dose at least until the 'normal' time (which will be 4 hours 'late' based on when I gave that .2) to get us back to normal schedule at least, and so I have a shot at getting at least one or two mids ..... unless you are adamantly against that.
 
I'd go with the general protocol, Barb. Increase by .25 every couple of cycles until you get numbers low enough, as long as you can test. If you can test and will be around, I see nothing wrong with starting where you left off - at .5 and going up from there.
 
I went to .8 (because it works out better in u100 as exactly 2units) because yesterday was flat all the way, hopefully today will see something happen :/
 
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