Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
This is a post on behalf of lchule.
Need help diet controlling cat
- Thread starter Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
- Start date
- Status
This is a post on behalf of lchule.
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
Hello and welcome to the board,
First what kind of low carb canned are you feeding? Type/brand? We need to be sure it's under 10%calories from carbs. Aso the dry food is not the best choice... D you know the % calories from carbs in that food?
Secondly, you probably should home test his blood to see where he is at. You may need to add some insulin.
Wendy
First what kind of low carb canned are you feeding? Type/brand? We need to be sure it's under 10%calories from carbs. Aso the dry food is not the best choice... D you know the % calories from carbs in that food?
Secondly, you probably should home test his blood to see where he is at. You may need to add some insulin.
Wendy
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
You can't now that I have done it, but for the next time you post (maybe a different question.?) then click on the board name above "feline health : the main fdmb forum" to get back to the main board and then click the new topic button.
So.. What are you feeding him in terms of canned, and are you open to home testing his blood?
So.. What are you feeding him in terms of canned, and are you open to home testing his blood?
Dr Schrodinger
Member Since 2012
Hi there,
I'm afraid you are wasting your money on the Dia-ionx. You would be far better off spending that on a home-testing kit to see what his blood glucose levels are like. That way you'll know what is happening with his diabetes, and whether he may be better off having insulin or not.
The excellent people on here can help you out with this, what brand to buy, where to get the strips & how to get a tiny drop of blood from your kitty's ear.
Welcome aboard!
juliet
I'm afraid you are wasting your money on the Dia-ionx. You would be far better off spending that on a home-testing kit to see what his blood glucose levels are like. That way you'll know what is happening with his diabetes, and whether he may be better off having insulin or not.
The excellent people on here can help you out with this, what brand to buy, where to get the strips & how to get a tiny drop of blood from your kitty's ear.
Welcome aboard!
juliet
Thank for your replies. I am feeding both my cats Fancy Feast Classic; seafood, chicken, and liver with chicken. The dry food has 3.5% max fiber; no listing of carbs on the package which says a 100% grain free.
I am afraid I am slowly losing Sam, by not giving him insulin shots; however, it is not feasible for him, or me. He has had more than his share of trauma and vets in his life, and goes ballistic when apprehended. He has to go in the car 2x a year, and after my husband covers him in a towel and gets him in his large car kennel/condo, he is as good as gold on our long 3 day trip. He likes pats from the cage and we have continual conversations, but once you try to carry him or hold him, he is like a wild animal.
I opted not to put him through this with insulin shots and repeated trips to the vet, where he has to be sedated. I feel just awful watching him go downhill, and shed many tears over it.
He improved overnight, back in April, with the change in his diet. His excessive thirst and appetite returned to normal at that time. His urine output was still great, and he continued to have normal daily BMs until just recently. It is now going on the third day. I have given him 2 small does of Mirilax in the last 24 hours, and will keep my fingers crossed.
I also ordered some liquid B12 to give him, and a multi-vit/min antioxidant called NU Senior for him. I continue to give him the homeopathic liquid for DB, as it is considered 'safe.' At this point I am trying most anything to keep him comfortable and alive.
The act of getting blood from his ear, or giving him insulin injections, is just not
tolerable by him. I would be a wreck and he would go and hide from me. I want his final time with us to at least not be stressful ones. He is such a sweet, trusting soul, as long as we keep our distance when he isn't wanting a pat/pet. I can't see us doing this any other way, for Sam's sake or ours!
Sorry so long-winded.
Linda
I am afraid I am slowly losing Sam, by not giving him insulin shots; however, it is not feasible for him, or me. He has had more than his share of trauma and vets in his life, and goes ballistic when apprehended. He has to go in the car 2x a year, and after my husband covers him in a towel and gets him in his large car kennel/condo, he is as good as gold on our long 3 day trip. He likes pats from the cage and we have continual conversations, but once you try to carry him or hold him, he is like a wild animal.
I opted not to put him through this with insulin shots and repeated trips to the vet, where he has to be sedated. I feel just awful watching him go downhill, and shed many tears over it.
He improved overnight, back in April, with the change in his diet. His excessive thirst and appetite returned to normal at that time. His urine output was still great, and he continued to have normal daily BMs until just recently. It is now going on the third day. I have given him 2 small does of Mirilax in the last 24 hours, and will keep my fingers crossed.
I also ordered some liquid B12 to give him, and a multi-vit/min antioxidant called NU Senior for him. I continue to give him the homeopathic liquid for DB, as it is considered 'safe.' At this point I am trying most anything to keep him comfortable and alive.
The act of getting blood from his ear, or giving him insulin injections, is just not
tolerable by him. I would be a wreck and he would go and hide from me. I want his final time with us to at least not be stressful ones. He is such a sweet, trusting soul, as long as we keep our distance when he isn't wanting a pat/pet. I can't see us doing this any other way, for Sam's sake or ours!
Sorry so long-winded.
Linda
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
the fancy feast classics are good. However grain free dry doesnt mean low carb so I think I would stop the dry if I were you and that should help more... also will help his kidneys if thats an issue.
Secondly, I think you are overestimating how difficult or stressful it is to give an insulin shot. The needle is so small they dont feel it. I do it when my guys are eating and they dont notice. And for many cats home testing blood is just as easy. Trust me we have had our share of very very difficult cats here, some wild/feral !!, and the owner has been able to test with no stress. I think you should consider at least giving it a try... you might be surprised!
What city/state are you in? Perhaps a local member near you can come over and show you?
Wendy
Secondly, I think you are overestimating how difficult or stressful it is to give an insulin shot. The needle is so small they dont feel it. I do it when my guys are eating and they dont notice. And for many cats home testing blood is just as easy. Trust me we have had our share of very very difficult cats here, some wild/feral !!, and the owner has been able to test with no stress. I think you should consider at least giving it a try... you might be surprised!
What city/state are you in? Perhaps a local member near you can come over and show you?
Wendy
BJM
Member Since 2010
I'm taking "goes ballistic" as meaning he is semi-feral or feral. For right now, using a blanket to burrito wrap him so you can give insulin is humane restraint, even if it bothers him or you. Get him into a small bathroom. Wear a heavy long sleeved shirt, denim or other heavy pants, and shoes. Cover as much skin as you can, including part of your face. If this is what is necessary, start with a very small dose of the insulin - 0.5 units max, as blood testing may be impossible until you have trained him for a while.
Use the Secondary Monitoring Tools in my signature to help you monitor him. There is a protocol which uses these.
If you're interested in training him to be less afraid and with luck, somewhat possible to handle, begin by giving him a low carb treat any time you come near him. Do this several times a day and in several places so he associates you with a treat. Maybe even say "treat" when you give him one.
Please understand - He is slowly starving to death because he cannot use the food he eats. If you cannot treat his diabetes with insulin, the most humane thing is to have him euthanized.
Use the Secondary Monitoring Tools in my signature to help you monitor him. There is a protocol which uses these.
If you're interested in training him to be less afraid and with luck, somewhat possible to handle, begin by giving him a low carb treat any time you come near him. Do this several times a day and in several places so he associates you with a treat. Maybe even say "treat" when you give him one.
Please understand - He is slowly starving to death because he cannot use the food he eats. If you cannot treat his diabetes with insulin, the most humane thing is to have him euthanized.
BJM
Member Since 2010
I understand how difficult this can be - I've been working with some poorly socialized cats and after about 3-4 years, finally got 1 to sit on the couch at the same time with me. Mason, the big guy in the basement, I may have to put into a large crate again because he's so skittish and I need to do flea treatments.
Where do I start, as far as type of insulin to buy, needle size?
Where do I put in the injection (while he is eating) and how often each day?
Does one of your info attachments have all this beginning information?
I would rather do it myself and not have to take him to the vet, where they usually have to sedate him.
Thanks again.
Linda
Where do I put in the injection (while he is eating) and how often each day?
Does one of your info attachments have all this beginning information?
I would rather do it myself and not have to take him to the vet, where they usually have to sedate him.
Thanks again.
Linda
BJM
Member Since 2010
Lantus, Levemir, or ProZinc are all good. They all require a prescription from a vet. With him difficult to handle, I'd start low at 0.5 units twice a day, since testing will be iffy until you've worked with him more.
Please leave his carrier out all the time, with a comfy blanket in it, maybe a sprig of catnip or a squirt of Feliway spray. This is to help him become comfortable in it and not associate it only with the vet. When he starts sleeping in it, you're ready for the next step -pm me then and I'll give you another step for the carrier acclimatization.
Here is a google maps search on veterinarian, near Quincy, IL; maybe consider a vet willing to come to your house if you can find one. Vet Interview Topics in my signature link.
Another idea is to get some mild sedative from the vet to use while you work on training him. You could put it in a pill pocket or piece of sliced processed cheese.
Please leave his carrier out all the time, with a comfy blanket in it, maybe a sprig of catnip or a squirt of Feliway spray. This is to help him become comfortable in it and not associate it only with the vet. When he starts sleeping in it, you're ready for the next step -pm me then and I'll give you another step for the carrier acclimatization.
Here is a google maps search on veterinarian, near Quincy, IL; maybe consider a vet willing to come to your house if you can find one. Vet Interview Topics in my signature link.
Another idea is to get some mild sedative from the vet to use while you work on training him. You could put it in a pill pocket or piece of sliced processed cheese.
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
- Insulin has to be from vet unless you want a road trip to Canada where you can buy it from any pharmacy without a prescription
- Needle size : Relion 3/10cc 30 & 31 gauge short, or BD Ultra fine 3/10cc short, or Terumo Thinpro Insulin Syringe 31G 3/10cc.
Shot locations:
Frequency - depends on the insulin but usually twice a day every twelve hours
You could start here which also has home testing info https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rd6sMfsrNB41yQVEqpyjlHrJsDIbGEhbRIWR4QAwu3c/pub
Wendy
My vet thinks the combination of insulin and diet (< 7% carb on a dry wt basis) is best and has seen some cats "recover" after a period of time to where they only need the diet. She likes the lantus insulin and there is a coupon for it. I thought I'd never be able to give my cat shots, but it works.
For an edgy kitty, food distracts when giving shot
People suggested to give the shot while the cat is eating because s/he is focused more on the food. Although my kitty will still complain and move, I would not have been able to give a shot even with a second person.
Practice lifting the skin, filling a syringe
My vet showed how to lift the loose skin using three fingers so the needle can slip thru two finger and just under the skin. I had to practice this, so I did it when the kitty was eating. While you need a perscription for the insulin, you don't need one for the needles. I buy mine from Walgreens because the needles are thinest at 31gauge (.3ml). My vet gave me a practice vial filled with water for practicing withdrawing insulin and getting rid of bubbles. Then, I graduated to actually giving an injection at the vet office. Of course my cat was compliant there. It takes a while to get the technique and the procedures down. There's a terrific vid that listed thru out this blog that was so helpful. I've used the Lantus vial and the Lantus Solostar pen and I like the pen a lot better, but you don't use it quite the same way as the vial.
Room temp insulin better accepted
One of the reasons I like the pen is that I can leave it out at room temperature. My cat really objects to the even slightly cool insulin. But, it's only good for 28 days sitting out. I get more than one pen storing the ones not in use in the frig in a plastic bag. With the coupon, the pen is less expensive than the vial. So, I store the Solostar pen in a herb jar.
Washing hands (using gloves) - The Procedure
I'm a little obsessive with trying not to add germs in. When I go to draw insulin, I wash my hands, put on gloves. A paper towel is put down and an alcohol swab is opened. Upon opening the pen, the rubber tip is wiped with the swab and then put crossways on top of the pen top that was just removed. I lost a pen when it rolled off the counter and fell hard at a weird angle on the tile floor and cracked. Then, I get a syringe and pump it like shown in the vid, and draw insulin out of the pen cartridge. The covers go back on the syringe and the solostar pen which is put back in the jar. My gloves come off, my kitty's food goes on a plate, I wash my hands again and deliver the plate. I use the food service gloves which are big, but cheap - $15 for 1000. Once she starts eating, I get the syringe and locate a spot for her subcutaneous injection away from the scruff of the neck and the spine. My vet pushes the plunger with the palm of her hand that way she doesn't have to move her finger off the syringe to push the plunger in.
After the injection
I run my forearm at the injection site to make sure it went in. If it doesn't, my vet told me to wait until the next injection time because you really can't tell how much went in.
Then, top goes back on the empty syringe and into a gallon container with a lid attached (used vinegar jug). When the container fills, I take it to my vet who disposes of the syringes for $13.
The right height
I actually put the food on a table so the kitty's at my height and I can stand. If it's in a corner, that is very helpful. I found it easier to locate the loose areas for injection up off the table by about 2 inches - basically on top of flipped over bowl.
Friskies, Fancy Feast, and EVO kibble
Food-wise, my vet gave me a list of canned food, but you need to double check as formulas can vary with the manufactures over time. My cat loved the Friskies Turke & Giblets Special Diet Classic pate, then suddenly stopped eating it. All the Friskies Special Diets are low carb. But now she Fancy Feast - Classic Chicken Feast, Chunky Chicken Feast and Chunky Turkey Feast. Purina emailed me the list for Fancy Feast today, where the first number is the protein and the second is the carbs. The file's attached and listed below with the ones my kitty eats highlighted:
Fancy Feast
NUTRIENTS ON A DRY MATTER BASIS
Protein, Carbohydrates
Fancy Feast CLASSIC Varieties
Tender Beef Feast 53.1% 4.68%
Tender Beef & Chicken Feast 51.4% 4.30%
Tender Beef & Liver Feast 50.8% 4.74%
Tender Liver & Chicken Feast 54.7% 3.60%
Turkey & Giblets Feast 53.3% 3.90%
Chopped Grill Feast 52.9% 4.68%
Cod, Sole & Shrimp Feast 59.2% 2.50%
Chicken Feast 53.0% 4.10%
Salmon & Shrimp Feast 53.2% 5.30%
Seafood Feast 57.3% 2.59%
Ocean Whitefish & Tuna Feast 60.0% 2.70%
Savory Salmon Feast 52.3% 4.68%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast FLAKED Varieties
Chicken & Tuna Feast 62.3% 6.79%
Fish & Shrimp Feast 63.2% 0.00%
Salmon & Ocean Whitefish Feast 60.5% 6.30%
Trout Feast 60.8% 6.10%
Tuna Feast 62.4% 7.40%
Tuna & Mackeral Feast 65.1% 7.60%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast CHUNKY Varieties
Chicken Feast 57.0% 5.10%
Turkey Feast 56.3% 6.20%
[/color]Chopped Grilled Feast 55.4% 6.10%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast ROASTED Varieties
Chicken Feast 63.0% 9.40%
Turkey Feast 65.2% 8.26%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast KITTEN Varieties
Turkey Feast 51.8% 4.10%
Ocean Whitefish Feast 54.5% 4.26%
EVO turkey and chicken hard food
The only hard food that meets the carb requirement of less than 7% carb is EVO Turkey and Chicken, which has been recently recalled. My cats love this food.
Parting words
If you haven't started on insulin yet, pls reconsider. My kitty is feeling so much better. This forum has helped me alot.
For an edgy kitty, food distracts when giving shot
People suggested to give the shot while the cat is eating because s/he is focused more on the food. Although my kitty will still complain and move, I would not have been able to give a shot even with a second person.
Practice lifting the skin, filling a syringe
My vet showed how to lift the loose skin using three fingers so the needle can slip thru two finger and just under the skin. I had to practice this, so I did it when the kitty was eating. While you need a perscription for the insulin, you don't need one for the needles. I buy mine from Walgreens because the needles are thinest at 31gauge (.3ml). My vet gave me a practice vial filled with water for practicing withdrawing insulin and getting rid of bubbles. Then, I graduated to actually giving an injection at the vet office. Of course my cat was compliant there. It takes a while to get the technique and the procedures down. There's a terrific vid that listed thru out this blog that was so helpful. I've used the Lantus vial and the Lantus Solostar pen and I like the pen a lot better, but you don't use it quite the same way as the vial.
Room temp insulin better accepted
One of the reasons I like the pen is that I can leave it out at room temperature. My cat really objects to the even slightly cool insulin. But, it's only good for 28 days sitting out. I get more than one pen storing the ones not in use in the frig in a plastic bag. With the coupon, the pen is less expensive than the vial. So, I store the Solostar pen in a herb jar.
Washing hands (using gloves) - The Procedure
I'm a little obsessive with trying not to add germs in. When I go to draw insulin, I wash my hands, put on gloves. A paper towel is put down and an alcohol swab is opened. Upon opening the pen, the rubber tip is wiped with the swab and then put crossways on top of the pen top that was just removed. I lost a pen when it rolled off the counter and fell hard at a weird angle on the tile floor and cracked. Then, I get a syringe and pump it like shown in the vid, and draw insulin out of the pen cartridge. The covers go back on the syringe and the solostar pen which is put back in the jar. My gloves come off, my kitty's food goes on a plate, I wash my hands again and deliver the plate. I use the food service gloves which are big, but cheap - $15 for 1000. Once she starts eating, I get the syringe and locate a spot for her subcutaneous injection away from the scruff of the neck and the spine. My vet pushes the plunger with the palm of her hand that way she doesn't have to move her finger off the syringe to push the plunger in.
After the injection
I run my forearm at the injection site to make sure it went in. If it doesn't, my vet told me to wait until the next injection time because you really can't tell how much went in.
Then, top goes back on the empty syringe and into a gallon container with a lid attached (used vinegar jug). When the container fills, I take it to my vet who disposes of the syringes for $13.
The right height
I actually put the food on a table so the kitty's at my height and I can stand. If it's in a corner, that is very helpful. I found it easier to locate the loose areas for injection up off the table by about 2 inches - basically on top of flipped over bowl.
Friskies, Fancy Feast, and EVO kibble
Food-wise, my vet gave me a list of canned food, but you need to double check as formulas can vary with the manufactures over time. My cat loved the Friskies Turke & Giblets Special Diet Classic pate, then suddenly stopped eating it. All the Friskies Special Diets are low carb. But now she Fancy Feast - Classic Chicken Feast, Chunky Chicken Feast and Chunky Turkey Feast. Purina emailed me the list for Fancy Feast today, where the first number is the protein and the second is the carbs. The file's attached and listed below with the ones my kitty eats highlighted:
Fancy Feast
NUTRIENTS ON A DRY MATTER BASIS
Protein, Carbohydrates
Fancy Feast CLASSIC Varieties
Tender Beef Feast 53.1% 4.68%
Tender Beef & Chicken Feast 51.4% 4.30%
Tender Beef & Liver Feast 50.8% 4.74%
Tender Liver & Chicken Feast 54.7% 3.60%
Turkey & Giblets Feast 53.3% 3.90%
Chopped Grill Feast 52.9% 4.68%
Cod, Sole & Shrimp Feast 59.2% 2.50%
Chicken Feast 53.0% 4.10%
Salmon & Shrimp Feast 53.2% 5.30%
Seafood Feast 57.3% 2.59%
Ocean Whitefish & Tuna Feast 60.0% 2.70%
Savory Salmon Feast 52.3% 4.68%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast FLAKED Varieties
Chicken & Tuna Feast 62.3% 6.79%
Fish & Shrimp Feast 63.2% 0.00%
Salmon & Ocean Whitefish Feast 60.5% 6.30%
Trout Feast 60.8% 6.10%
Tuna Feast 62.4% 7.40%
Tuna & Mackeral Feast 65.1% 7.60%
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast CHUNKY Varieties
Chicken Feast 57.0% 5.10%
Turkey Feast 56.3% 6.20%
[/color]Chopped Grilled Feast 55.4% 6.10%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast ROASTED Varieties
Chicken Feast 63.0% 9.40%
Turkey Feast 65.2% 8.26%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fancy Feast KITTEN Varieties
Turkey Feast 51.8% 4.10%
Ocean Whitefish Feast 54.5% 4.26%
EVO turkey and chicken hard food
The only hard food that meets the carb requirement of less than 7% carb is EVO Turkey and Chicken, which has been recently recalled. My cats love this food.
Parting words
If you haven't started on insulin yet, pls reconsider. My kitty is feeling so much better. This forum has helped me alot.
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
We recommend keeping the vials and pens of Lantus and other insulins refrigerated at all times, except for drawing out the insulin into the syringe.
Please, if you feel you need to warm the insulin, you can hold the filled syringe in your hands for a little bit.
That way, the insulin pen can be stored properly and still used to the last drop. It will save you a lot of money, not having to throw out those vials or pens after 28 days.
Do an internet search for "Lantus Savings Card". It will take you to the manufacturers website to sign up for the program.
Some states require a prescription for the needles. I live in Illinois, and I had to have one from my vet along with the Rx for Lantus.
The laws vary from state to state on syringe purchase.
WalMart's ReliOn brand is the most economical (box of 100 with 1/2 unit marking is about $13.00). The 1/2 marking is very helpful as you make adjustments based on the insulin protocols.
RobinCot
Member Since 2013
Welcome
We have all been where you are - scared and sad and all those other emotions but the insulin and testing regime is doable. It may not look like it now but the experts here will help you and pretty soon, you'll be helping other people get started.
My sugarfoster does not like cold insulin either so I hold the outside of the syringe tightly between two fingers to warm it up as I am carrying it upstairs and waiting for my cat to jump up on the table and get into position (they really are trainable). This seems to warm it up sufficiently. I keep the pen in a dark non-moving section of the fridge when I am not extruding a dose. That way a pen will last several months instead of 28 days. This is so much more cost efficient for an expensive but good insulin.
The first two weeks it will seem like complete chaos and trauma and then it all becomes normal and calm. You'll figure it out and I am sooooo glad you came here so we can help you through it and listen to your worries and angst as well as cheer you in your successes.
We have all been where you are - scared and sad and all those other emotions but the insulin and testing regime is doable. It may not look like it now but the experts here will help you and pretty soon, you'll be helping other people get started.
My sugarfoster does not like cold insulin either so I hold the outside of the syringe tightly between two fingers to warm it up as I am carrying it upstairs and waiting for my cat to jump up on the table and get into position (they really are trainable). This seems to warm it up sufficiently. I keep the pen in a dark non-moving section of the fridge when I am not extruding a dose. That way a pen will last several months instead of 28 days. This is so much more cost efficient for an expensive but good insulin.
The first two weeks it will seem like complete chaos and trauma and then it all becomes normal and calm. You'll figure it out and I am sooooo glad you came here so we can help you through it and listen to your worries and angst as well as cheer you in your successes.
KPassa
Member Since 2012
Hi Linda,
How are things going? Noki also gave some great suggestions regarding food and shots. Here's another link to some great testing tips. Please let us know if there's anything specifically we can assist you with. I have a semi-feral diabetic that can be quite difficult at times, so I know how you feel. I promise; it gets easier!
-Kay
How are things going? Noki also gave some great suggestions regarding food and shots. Here's another link to some great testing tips. Please let us know if there's anything specifically we can assist you with. I have a semi-feral diabetic that can be quite difficult at times, so I know how you feel. I promise; it gets easier!
-Kay
I thank everyone for their help. We did our best to save Sam, even having him on insulin for his last few days, but DB had already degraded his poor body. We had to put him to sleep when he became unsteady on his feet. He was very loved and it was a sad evening, accompanied by husband, and two of my granddaughters who happened to be visiting overnight. We are continuing to keep Raleigh on the same heathy diet, however, even tho he does not have DB. He is doing just fine. Thanks again for all your concerns. Sam is missed greatly!
Wendy&Tiggy(GA)
Member Since 2011
Oh no - i am sorry to hear this - sorry for your loss
Wendy
Wendy
Deb & Wink
Member Since 2013
- Status