Need Guidance, Numbers Dancing Around After Drop

[Louellen]

I'm sorry if I'm in the wrong area but, I'm not sure where to post this question.

Morrigan is a difficult cat to deal with and doesn't sit well for testings or shots (takes 2 of us to do it) so, constant testing is a real challenge but, what i have gotten is on her SS in my signature.

I noticed Morrigan having had a couple of "drops" over the past week or so and was unsure what to do about it. Posted here and called the vet etc.. I skipped one shot as it was late at night and I wasn't going to risk an issue overnight since vet said to NOT shoot anything 10 (180) and under.

Since then, I've been getting some odd numbers with drops at night but, back to purple/pink numbers some AMPS tests while lower (for her) at night.

Can anyone take a look at Morrigan's SS and see if they can spot anything? I've kept notes in the sides as closely as possible. I've also kept a written record of her urination and drinking (not on chart) that shows her drinking and urination are way down from original pre-insulin days. She seems to be drinking normally now and has 2 to 3 urinations/day. Usually 2 now (way down from 5 and 6 HUGE clumps before insulin).

Last Fructosamine at vet's clinic was May 7th where she'd gone from a 505 pre-insulin to a 403. Next Fructosamine is due late next week so our vet is waiting to see that and one more Curve that I'm going to do at home before we take her in. He has access to her ongoing SS sheet and says to "stay the dose right now" as she has dipped and he's not comfortable increasing dosages until we see the next Fructosamine level.

But, what do you think may be happening to get these sort of crazy ranges after seemingly being more regular in her numbers? Any thoughts?

Adding: Do you think that perhaps, she *might* be dropping through the night and getting some sort of rebound effect in the AMPS number? She's eating about the same calorie amounts most days as we measure her food to see what she's eaten and keep track of that as well (written in a booklet at home but, also posted in recent days as well on her SS)

 

[Amy&TrixieCat]

Unfortunately without many mid-cycle tests, it is really hard to say for sure what is going on with Morrigan. With the mini-curve that you did on 5/25, I would suspect that she might need more insulin, but things can and do change fairly regularly with diabetes so I wouldn't adjust today's dose based on that data.

Is there anything we can do to help you get Morrigan more "accepting" of tests? Do you give her treats and special attention when you test - even if you aren't successful in getting a drop of blood? We have all kinds of tips and tricks we can share if you think that would help. Even one test during each cycle (or even a few random tests here and there in general) will give you a lot more information about how her body is working the insulin. A lot can happen within the 12 hours between shots, so even a little bit of data in there would help.

Also, just so we can interpret the data correctly, what meter are you using?

 

[Louellen]

Thank you @Amy&TrixieCat .... I give her pats, love, treats...the whole gamut of things that are suggested. I give her treats while on the table to be tested and AFTER, I give her catnip (her favourite) so that she "looks forward" to getting those things and only give them during testing times. Unfortunately...even clipping her claws is a total nightmare and requires 2 of us to do. She IS getting better with it. At first, I thought we'd own shares in the bandage companies!

I use the Bayer Contour Next meter. Hubby is diabetic (not on insulin...diet and exercise controlled) so, we had a spare meter (checked with solution from the company and gone over by tech support so, meter is fine and new strips...allegedly the newest meter they make and 10% accuracy vs lab up to 13 then, 15% above 13)

I think that once those lower numbers (blues) started occurring a few days ago now, her numbers have been less predictable. Even last night's number was lower than usual (though not terribly) and suddenly, this morning's number was out of range for her in recent weeks prior to the major drop (for her) a few nights ago. This has me stumped though.

Now, granted, she is still on kibble (m/d kibble) through the night. I have been really working HARD on getting her to switch totally over to the canned foods but, if she doesn't get some kibble...she doesn't eat enough calories and I worry about that as well for all of the reasons stated in here about that. So, she's a bit more than 50/50 most days now but, sill stuck on at least 1/8th to 1/4 cup per day of the m/d kibble (we cannot get EVO nor Young Again up here in Canada and I've tried baking canned food to no success in getting her to eat it). It *may* be possible that she's eating 1/8th cup early morning and it's kicking in as I test in the a.m.???

I try to get some "spot checks" here and there but, to do a full day curve or more frequently, I would need to take up drinking I do have to do curves for the vet to see but, that's a day of sweating it out with her temperament. I just have to keep working on her. At least she's getting better with it now and I'm getting used to a "moving target", hissing, growling, fighting and flicking! Believe it or not, she will ONLY sit long enough to test (aka held in place) *IF* she gets a forbidden treat of Luvs. BUT, she accepts the freeze dried chicken treats AFTER her tests SOMETIMES and that's AFTER getting a tiny pinch of catnip and patting. Sometimes, I can't go near her after a test as she swats, claws and hisses at me. I try to do everything everyone has suggested. It IS getting somewhat better from not being able to get a test at all to most days now, twice pre-shots. Thank you for asking though.

Edited to add: I just looked through Trixie's SS and can see that you've had the ups and downs as well but, were much braver than me to continue shooting into low ranges and testing a lot more than I could do with Morrigan. But, I do see those numbers bouncing around earlier on from blues and greens to yellows/pinks/purples and back again. Wow...you must have felt like you were on a rollercoaster ride!

 

[Amy&TrixieCat]

Well it is very awesome that you are able to get her pre-shot tests in, and it sounds like you are moving forward! To be honest, a few spot checks (even just one per cycle) may give you more information that the occasional full curve does. It does take some kitty's more time than others to get used to the testing, but it does sound like you are slowly getting there with Morrigan.

I don't know too much about kibble, but I wonder there are ny others there that may be better, carb-wise, than the MD (that you can get in Canada). Maybe someone else will have ideas on that.

 

[Louellen]

Well it is very awesome that you are able to get her pre-shot tests in, and it sounds like you are moving forward! To be honest, a few spot checks (even just one per cycle) may give you more information that the occasional full curve does. It does take some kitty's more time than others to get used to the testing, but it does sound like you are slowly getting there with Morrigan.

I don't know too much about kibble, but I wonder there are ny others there that may be better, carb-wise, than the MD (that you can get in Canada). Maybe someone else will have ideas on that.

Thanks Amy&TrixieCat....I picked up some Orijen Cat & Kitten dry food today as it's the same or lower carb level as the prescription foods, according to both calculations done according to the maths (DMA) as well as "As Fed" and then, called the company. Our numbers matched so, I looked at the ingredients of both the prescription m/d she's on and the Orijen. Here's what I got.

m/d ingredients

Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat, Brewers Rice, Wheat Gluten, Powdered Cellulose, Pork Protein Isolate, L-Lysine, Chicken Liver Flavor, Lactic Acid, Whole Grain Corn, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, Calcium Carbonate, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, DL-Methionine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, L-Arginine, Mixed Tocopherols for freshness, Phosphoric Acid, Beta Carotene, Natural Flavors.

Orijen Cat & Kitten

Boneless chicken,* chicken meal, chicken liver,* whole herring,* boneless turkey,* turkey meal, turkey liver,* whole eggs,* boneless walleye,* whole salmon,* chicken heart,* chicken cartilage,* herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, chicken fat, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, kelp, pumpkin,* butternut squash,* spinach greens,* carrots,* apples,* pears,* cranberries,* mixed tocopherols (preservative), chicory root, dandelion root, chamomile, peppermint leaf, ginger root, caraway seeds, turmeric, rose hips, freeze-dried chicken liver, freeze-dried turkey liver, freeze-dried chicken, freeze-dried turkey, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product + vitamins and minerals

*delivered fresh and preservative-free

SUPPLEMENTS
Zinc Protienate, copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, dried Enterococcis faecium fermentation product.

So, I'm seeing that the ingredients in both are totally different, carb content about the same so...wondering which one is best? Given what I'm seeing as a lay person, I'd say the 2nd. PH 5 on the Orijen. And, even though there's fruits and carrots in there, they say that they're in small amounts with the most being the meat/fish. The fish is allegedly gotten from Canada and daily checked for mercury levels.

I have no clue who to believe or what anymore. They say that the Glycemic Index on the Orijen (totally Canadian made) is better than the prescription foods even though the prescription foods have the same carb content. It's how the body utilizes it and metabolizes it that makes the difference in spite of the same carb content levels. Who is right? I don't know either. I just know that I am continuing to work on getting her completely off the kibble and onto totally, the canned foods.

It's all a real head scratcher for me as I was also under the worry with a former CKD cat that phosphorous levels were the "killers" for these cats and the Friskies and Fancy Feast as well as 9-Lives are all high phosphorous as are all of these foods high in protein...another potential factor in CKD formation. So, what works for one issue, may be creating another. Who or what to believe????

But, I will try my very best to get some more "spot check" numbers and vary them in her SS! Thank you for that suggestion!

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I do suspect that the dry food at night is problematic. You're giving food that's in the neighborhood of 20% carb and takes longer to be metabolized. If Morrigan is eating LC canned food during the day and you're giving HC food during the PM cycle, in all likelihood numbers are coming down over the course of the AM cycle, you're seeing a somewhat lower PMPS, and then bumping over the course of the PM cycle due to the HC at night.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Because decisions on Lantus dosing are made based upon how LOW the dose takes the cat, and the low point is typically somewhere between the shots, it's pretty essential to see some mid-cycle tests. We're all laypeople, and the best we can do is to look at the tests to help people figure out dosing.

With dry food in the picture, your option for a dosing method is the Start Low Go Slow. With that, you'd do a curve once a week - either every 2 hours of 12 hours or every 3 hours for 18 hours.

I know I already said it on your other thread in Main Health, but in my opinion, the single thing you could do to help her make progress with her diabetes would be to continue working on transitioning her to low carb canned food or raw food. Follow all the tips on www.catinfo.org for transitioning a dry food addict to canned food. Eating high carb food is a bit like a human diabetic trying to control their blood sugar while having cake for breakfast, candy at lunch, and ice cream for dinner. You can give more insulin to try to compensate, but it's so much better if the cat/person is on a lower carb diet.

 

[Louellen]

I do suspect that the dry food at night is problematic. You're giving food that's in the neighborhood of 20% carb and takes longer to be metabolized. If Morrigan is eating LC canned food during the day and you're giving HC food during the PM cycle, in all likelihood numbers are coming down over the course of the AM cycle, you're seeing a somewhat lower PMPS, and then bumping over the course of the PM cycle due to the HC at night.

That makes perfect sense, BJ. I have been working diligently to get her totally off of the kibble and have gotten her down to 1/8th cup of it at night only. The day time, she is on purely LC canned foods and yet, she'll still try to paw open the cupboard to get to her kibble even though I've had to "hide" it as she'll tear into the bag if I don't. But, I also leave down canned food overnight. If she finishes her dry food, she'll sometimes entertain the idea of the canned food by a few licks. I've tried leaving out only the canned food overnight for 2 weeks...but, once it's been left for 3 or so hours, she will NOT look at it and comes in to wake us up. We've had to get up at 3 and 4 a.m. and finally cave to putting down that 1/8th cup to get through the rest of the night or until she gets more canned food, fresh at 7 to 7:30 a.m.. I've even tried the 'freezing' method where I've frozen it and it down frozen but, being a free feeder her entire life, she either hits it before it's thawed and won't touch it or, long after it's been out and won't touch it. I think I can safely say, "spoiled"???

 

[Louellen]

Because decisions on Lantus dosing are made based upon how LOW the dose takes the cat, and the low point is typically somewhere between the shots, it's pretty essential to see some mid-cycle tests. We're all laypeople, and the best we can do is to look at the tests to help people figure out dosing.

With dry food in the picture, your option for a dosing method is the Start Low Go Slow. With that, you'd do a curve once a week - either every 2 hours of 12 hours or every 3 hours for 18 hours.

I know I already said it on your other thread in Main Health, but in my opinion, the single thing you could do to help her make progress with her diabetes would be to continue working on transitioning her to low carb canned food or raw food. Follow all the tips on www.catinfo.org for transitioning a dry food addict to canned food. Eating high carb food is a bit like a human diabetic trying to control their blood sugar while having cake for breakfast, candy at lunch, and ice cream for dinner. You can give more insulin to try to compensate, but it's so much better if the cat/person is on a lower carb diet.

Thank you, Julie.

I tried getting more mid-cycle readings (OUCH...covered in scratches) and I get readings of about 2 points lower than the starting point each time. I've also done a few other times as well (spot checks).

Our vet finally said that he's got the picture of what she does and like you and BJ have said, keep on trying to get rid of the kibble (stuff I'm buying from him in the m/d or DM and she won't look at that canned food and I won't give it to her). I've managed to get from a total kibble addict only....to 1/8th cup (1/4 c if we're going to be out for the day and evening). But, if I don't put down the kibble overnight (she's purely canned food all day now), she's got us up all night and usually, like most cats, that's her lowest numbers of the day so, I fear not leaving her anything to nibble on. She will NOT touch left out canned foods. It's either fresh or nothing. And, NONE of the suggestions listed (I've read 'em all and tried them all, including baking canned foods) work during the night and sometimes, even during the day still but, I'm winning more during the day.

I did take away her kibble completely but, she refused to eat much at all and within 2 days, we ran into not urinating or defecating. Our vet was ticked at us! He read me the riot act and told me to keep trying but, put down the kibble for her if she won't eat the canned food. Thankfully, within a day or 2, she was ok again. He was really shocked and upset at me for doing it. Won't try that ever again.

My only option to the kibble overnight is to stay up all night and keep giving her fresh canned foods??? I'm out of ideas there.

She has a fructosamine level coming up next week again. She went from 505 first one after starting insulin to 403 after starting it and we'll see where she's at now then, our vet said he'd look at the SS again, another curve I'll do during the day (though he only wants every 4 hours, not every 2 but, I will double check with him again next week first as doing it every 2 hours is extremely difficult on her and us as it takes 2 of us to get a test and being home all day bandaging one another ) He'll decide then, based upon that criteria whether to raise the dosage or not.

I just didn't understand those lower numbers then, the higher ones happening again and no change in the diet??? It's all strange. But, thank you so much for trying.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Have you thought about a timed feeder? It may be a way to keep the food fresher over the course of the night.

(BTW, I'm Sienne -- not BJ.)

 

[Louellen]

@Sienne and Gabby ...I am SO sorry for the mistaken identity! Please accept my apologies as credit should be given where it's due. That will teach me to read the screen without my glasses.

Yes, I have thought about a timed feeder and looked into one that would be for wet food. Unfortunately, with Morrigan...it's anyone's guess as to whether she would be around for the timing of it no matter where I put it and even set onto a longer setting for "open"...that might not do it either as she just simply doesn't like it once it's been out for some odd reason. As long as she gets to the bowl when it's first put out, with her seeing it put out, she'll eat *IF* she wants it. But, once she's walked away from it....there is NO way that she'll go back to it even within a half hour span. I know...it's really finicky but, this is what I'm dealing with and that's why I'm going bald!

See, I know what she *should* be doing and eating but, as another member in here and I have been saying about our cats and the kibble addiction...no one has taught them how to read the manual on this stuff! I wonder if Lisa Pierson would be able to teach them?

I'm joking around before I go insane with this but, yes...I DO understand about the foods and why and I'm doing my level headed best to get her into "Kitty Kibble Rehab" and I should go and hit the first vet in the face because it was HER who talked me into putting her onto the Science Diet crap she sold me in the first place!!! The second vet agreed with HER and so on. Now...it's "get her off of the kibble". I'd LOVE to tell them all to come and live with me and THEY can get her off of the kibble!

Anyone know of a good criminal defence attorney who can get me off of assault charges on the grounds of temporary insanity?!

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

have you looked into the freeze dried foods? I'm sure you have some options ... Mine treats it like it's dry.
the other thing is the fortiflora which tastes like dry (it's the digest that they put on the dry) ... that may spark more interest in the wet food.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

but, sill stuck on at least 1/8th to 1/4 cup per day of the m/d kibble (we cannot get EVO nor Young Again up here in Canada

Evo Cat and Kitten is available in a lot of places near me - I'm in British Columbia. The website has a store locator to see if there is anything near you. I know you are trying, and some are harder than others to get rid of that dry. But we've seen some amazing turnarounds with the switch. Once cat went from 5.5 units of Levemir to zero in a day in a half when dry food was removed from the house. Another thought - some cats will go for raw, but not canned. The freeze dried Rhiannon mentions might be a way to try that out. Or you can get small sample packs. Good luck.

 

[Louellen]

have you looked into the freeze dried foods? I'm sure you have some options ... Mine treats it like it's dry.
the other thing is the fortiflora which tastes like dry (it's the digest that they put on the dry) ... that may spark more interest in the wet food.

Uhhhh...yup Rhianon...I've looked at the freeze dried and I've tried the Pure Bites as treats during shots and testings. She won't look at it...no matter what flavour and I do have FortiFlora which is what has gotten me to at least the 50/50 mark now. I'm down to 1/8th of a cup of kibble overnight most days now but, can't get rid of that 1/8th cup overnight still. It's like trying to take a pacifier away from a baby who is addicted to it and slowly trying to wean off of it.

 

[Louellen]

Evo Cat and Kitten is available in a lot of places near me - I'm in British Columbia. The website has a store locator to see if there is anything near you. I know you are trying, and some are harder than others to get rid of that dry. But we've seen some amazing turnarounds with the switch. Once cat went from 5.5 units of Levemir to zero in a day in a half when dry food was removed from the house. Another thought - some cats will go for raw, but not canned. The freeze dried Rhiannon mentions might be a way to try that out. Or you can get small sample packs. Good luck.

Wendy...I am SHOCKED that you can still get the EVO out in B.C.!!! Mars (the manufacturer of EVO) has told me and another Canadian member here, that it's been stopped from being shipped to Canada! The profits weren't there...or, at least, that's what they've told us anyways. I never got Morrigan onto it so, I figured now that it's been "discontinued" up here as the stores all say, I found ONE bag on a shelf that finished their supply of it and grabbed it for another member's cat who is on it. Now, after this one, she will be done with the EVO and will have to find something else.

If you can ever find out if they'll continue carrying it in B.C....I'd really appreciate it! I'd put Morrigan onto it and perhaps, ask if you could send bags from B.C. and I'd reimburse you for them. BUT...if they're NOT going to continue carrying them....there's no use as the cost of shipping, exchange, duty and HST would be ridiculous to keep getting from the U.S..

Just WOW! How can they keep supplying it to one province and not the others???? I'm so confused now!

Editing to add that I'm in Ontario as is another member here.
Editing again to add....
Yes...I see what you mean by using that "store locator". Two of us used that and got all of the stores that allegedly carry it. We phone every last one of them and NONE of them have it as they all tell us "it's been discontinued". So, the stores are all showing up as having it but, they don't have it as Mars isn't keeping it Canada. If that is what you are going by...if you don't mind....try giving one or 2 of those stores a call (just out of pure curiosity for my sake and another member) and I think you'll find them saying the same thing that we've gotten in Ontario.

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

EVO has stated on their Facebook page that their foods (canned and kibble) are no longer available in Canada. For anyone in Canada who is using their food, please note that while EVO will tell you that you can order online through one of their online retailers, only one will ship to Canada but they DO NOT SHIP PET FOOD. A few days ago I was able to place an order from the EVO retailer for the EVO dog food but not the cat food due to my location in Canada. I inquired about this via email and today it seems they have corrected their website as I can no longer order the EVO dog food either!

At this point in time, Canadians like myself and Louellen, with reticent cats who go on hunger strikes without their kibble, have one lowish carb option that is made in Canada. It's called GO Fit and Free. It comes in at a whopping 14% carb by guaranteed analysis (I don't have the DMA) and contains potatoes amongst many other fruits and vegetables no cat would ever order if given a menu to choose from.

I am trying to determine the extent of the CFIA pet food import changes being implemented but to date, no one seems to want to share any information. A call to the animal division of CFIA did not get answered at all. The phone just rang and rang so I continue to call hoping that I will eventually reach someone to speak with. I fear our selection of pet food in Canada is about to be seriously depleted and we may ultimately have a serious problem finding appropriate foods for our sugar babies!

 

[Wendy&Neko]

I just checked a pet food store in BC today, and they confirmed they no longer have and are no longer able to get the Evo.

 

[Louellen]

I just checked a pet food store in BC today, and they confirmed they no longer have and are no longer able to get the Evo.

Thank you so much Wendy....it just seems to confirm what Mr.Worfmen'sMom has just said and I have also found out. I was surprised at first as I thought that maybe you were seeing it in stores but, then I realized that you had done what we, Canadians had been fooled by with EVO's site and store locator. It shows a lot of retailers but, I've made many calls and got the same story as what Mr.Worfmen'sMom has stated above there.

 

[Louellen]

EVO has stated on their Facebook page that their foods (canned and kibble) are no longer available in Canada. For anyone in Canada who is using their food, please note that while EVO will tell you that you can order online through one of their online retailers, only one will ship to Canada but they DO NOT SHIP PET FOOD. A few days ago I was able to place an order from the EVO retailer for the EVO dog food but not the cat food due to my location in Canada. I inquired about this via email and today it seems they have corrected their website as I can no longer order the EVO dog food either!

At this point in time, Canadians like myself and Louellen, with reticent cats who go on hunger strikes without their kibble, have one lowish carb option that is made in Canada. It's called GO Fit and Free. It comes in at a whopping 14% carb by guaranteed analysis (I don't have the DMA) and contains potatoes amongst many other fruits and vegetables no cat would ever order if given a menu to choose from.

I am trying to determine the extent of the CFIA pet food import changes being implemented but to date, no one seems to want to share any information. A call to the animal division of CFIA did not get answered at all. The phone just rang and rang so I continue to call hoping that I will eventually reach someone to speak with. I fear our selection of pet food in Canada is about to be seriously depleted and we may ultimately have a serious problem finding appropriate foods for our sugar babies!

Mr.Worfmen'sMom....I am like you, scratching my head at what to do about this Canadian mess we're in with our pet foods. When we're in a position that we need "specialty foods" that the U.S. has....we are in trouble because we cannot follow the same things as our U.S. fellow members can follow. We know what we would be best off to do and what is supposed to be done but, we haven't yet figured out how to get our kitties to read and agree to the rules and sign on the dotted line that they will comply to the terms. So, we want to try the best that we can with other foods that just are NOT available to us as Canadians!

I don't know about you but, I feel like I'm being a "bad Sugar Kitty Mom" when I can't do a darned thing about it either.

A call to Mars, the manufacturer in the U.S. of EVO products netted me only the answer that it was a dollars and cents profit margin decision but, who really knows???? Is it that or is there something else going on? Their Facebook wall shows that Japan and other countries that relied upon it as well are NOT getting it either. Has Mars decided that it's only the U.S. now that it will sell to??? Wow....

So, really...that only leaves us with prescription formulas from our vets (hmmmm....conspiracy here between vets, Hills, Purina and Royal Canin, along with the Canadian government?) Or, is it that U.S. manufacturers are using only profit margins as their bottom lines??? I have no idea but, I'd LOVE to get to the bottom of it all. What we have up here is pitiful by comparison to what our U.S. friends have available to them.

I so wish our cats liked Fancy Feast, 9 Lives, Friskies etc., but I've had NO luck with those at all. I'm lucky if she will eat Purina ProPlan sanctioned canned foods and even THEY are starting to become scarce up here. I'm wondering if they are also going to stop making their foods in the "mid-range" and go purely for their supermarket/Walmart brand and their prescription formulas (which Morrigan won't eat in canned form and both the canned and dry shoot her numbers way up) with that mid-range gone? Why don't we have compliant cats? Don't they know that we're only trying to do our best for them?

I'm good and angry, worried and upset that we are in this position. When we win the lottery, we'll gather up our other Canadian Sugar Kitty friends here and start our own cat and dog food company!

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

Another member found a canned food manufactured here called Boreal that is supposedly low on the glycemic index. Looks good on the surface but then I noticed it doesn't have any taurine added. While it has salmon in it which would provide some taurine, I question whether it would be enough to make that food a complete diet. Probably Ok for a change periodically but not regular fare.

This company also makes a kibble, supposedly low glycemic, so I checked that out. Using a very rough calculation based on Guaranteed Ingredients, it came in at a whopping 28% carb. It has sweet potatoes and some fruit and vegetables in it. I wrote to the company to get DMA and put a bug in their ear that an ultra low carb (under 10%)Canadian made option is needed and there seems to be a lucrative business opportunity for any takers given the current selection of CDN products here. The company is run by two brothers and one of them is a veterinarian concerned about the rising number of diabetic pets resulting from the diets currently available. Funny enough they are working with a biotech firm in the US.

We'll see what I get back. I'm hoping my note might spur them into action!

 

[Louellen]

Wow...well that would be PERFECT BUT...like everything that these pet food manufacturers do with a new brand...there is months, if not years before they can get it to market even *IF* they want to produce it. But, good on you in getting them to at least pay attention.

I've also tried Performatrin, the Pet Valu brand, hoping that they will jump on board as well to produce a low carb line but, THEY said that it would take months, if not years before they could get on onto the market.

Nutram also tried a low carb version (another Canadian company) but, theirs is the same idea...about a 25% carb content.

About the ONLY lower carb kibbles now for us Canadians are Nature's Valley Instinct at 13% (which Morrigan wouldn't look at beyond the nice "change" for a day), the prescription formulas at whopping 17 and 19% carbs (please tell me WHY it is prescription at that percentage?) and Orijen at the same percentages as the prescription formulas but, not the corn, corn gluten, corn meal that's in the prescription formulas....and seems to be something Morrigan entertains at 1/8 cup per day. That's it. We're stuck if our cats won't completely get off of the kibble or while we're still trying.

I don't know about you but, my pantry cupboard looks like a small Pet Valu or Petsmart store!!! I could feed a colony of ferals for a year or more!

 

[Louellen]

Hmmm....I wonder something here. Vets are telling us about Lisa Pierson's studies and thoughts and directing us to this site. I wonder how many pet food manufacturers are reading these forums? Any? What about vets?

Surely if vets and vet techs are aware of this forum and site....they'd be looking into this. I had our previous vet, recommend this site to me, along with Fancy Feast etc.. I wonder if somehow, this site could attract the attention of pet food companies in Canada????? But, HOW to do it?!

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

I already donated 10lbs or more to a feral colony! They are eating high off the hog right now! And we can't even get a tax receipt for those food donations!

I cleaned out all the dry fails and now have a counter covered in cat food cans to continue with my never ending transition project.

It will be so nice when I can finally see my countertop again! Anything for my little sugar!

 

[MrWorfMen's Mom]

Oh yeah....Nature's Variety appears to be a US product too! Only Go Fit & Free and Orijen are Canadian products. Dismal situation to say the least!

 

[Shiloh & Rhonda (GA)]

I don't understand. I was going to send @MrWorfMen's Mom my bag of EVO, but it appears Canadian customs would confiscate it if they figured out what it was. Luckily I was able to find a member in CA that could use it. He should have it tomorrow.

I actually tried to donate it to some rescues here locally, and either was told no, because it was opened, or just no response at all.

 

[Louellen]

Yes...it seems that Canada Customs won't accept pet food products without having a clearance certificate from a supplier. It can't be "gifted" or sent by individuals for some odd reason.

 

[Louellen]

I already donated 10lbs or more to a feral colony! They are eating high off the hog right now! And we can't even get a tax receipt for those food donations!

I cleaned out all the dry fails and now have a counter covered in cat food cans to continue with my never ending transition project.

It will be so nice when I can finally see my countertop again! Anything for my little sugar!

Well, so much for the Orijen right now. I went a little too quickly with the transition and Morrigan developed loose stools the past 2 days. Now to try to get that cleared up by giving her the m/d again instead and wait until she gets tightened up again (she's really rather laying "low" today) before I try that again and VERY slowly. Orijen is a MUCH richer diet in terms of all meats.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Have you tried pulverizing the dry food and sprinkling it over the canned low carb?

I understand what a problem you're having. I recall some member doing a little experiment with their cat and finding that 3 pieces of dry kibble was enough to raise their blood sugar significantly. I don't recall the exact amount now - it was years ago - but it was significant.

 

[Louellen]

Oh yes, thank you Julie...I've read the suggestions and tried them ALL...from A to Z. It's akin to trying to take the bottle from an alcoholic's hands LOL

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Then I'd just go with the Start Low Go Slow plan for dosing. If you can get a curve done, then you'll be able to see what to do with the dose. She's pretty high overall right now and likely needs a little more insulin, but a curve will let you know, with confidence, what to do with the dose.

 

[Louellen]

Thank you, Julie. I'm planning on doing that curve next week and setting an appointment with our vet for another fructrosamine level which is due around July 7th or so according to her records.

I did try her on the Orijen kibble and her numbers were lower than on the m/d. However, I think I might have done the change too quickly as she's developed loose stools now so, I'm going have to go back to the m/d for that 1/8th cup she gets per day now and try again.

I am concerned. However, I also realize that from all kibble, we're down to only 1/8th cup per day (the odd day...very rarely now) she's at 1/4 cup. So, that's saying that really...she's at more than 50/50 now of canned foods...more like 60/70 to 40/30. I just did a bit of calculating (very rough calculations and only a small portion of her diet now is from kibble....well...uhhh...until I get her stools firmed up again from this too quick a switch...or, at least, I assume that's what it was from as it only started after 2 days of the new kibble????)

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

I understand - but the reason I posted about the member who saw BGs increase from 3 kibbles is that I think most new members underestimate the power of kibble carbs to raise blood sugar.

Scooter was a secret-kibble-sneaker and when Linda took the dry food out of the house entirely for all 13 of her cats, Scooter went from 5.5u to off of insulin in one and a half very, very long days. She wasn't even feeding him any - he apparently snuck what fell on the floor. It's just incredibly powerful stuff. Look at February 2014 here and you can see how that happened.

I know you're doing the best you can, and that Morrigan is being challenging in the whole food issue. I'm not meaning to criticize at all, just give you information to help you move ahead.

 

[Louellen]

I understand - but the reason I posted about the member who saw BGs increase from 3 kibbles is that I think most new members underestimate the power of kibble carbs to raise blood sugar.

Scooter was a secret-kibble-sneaker and when Linda took the dry food out of the house entirely for all 13 of her cats, Scooter went from 5.5u to off of insulin in one and a half very, very long days. She wasn't even feeding him any - he apparently snuck what fell on the floor. It's just incredibly powerful stuff. Look at February 2014 here and you can see how that happened.

I know you're doing the best you can, and that Morrigan is being challenging in the whole food issue. I'm not meaning to criticize at all, just give you information to help you move ahead.

Oh, I completely understand, Julie and I totally appreciate all that you're trying and thinking about to help me. I really and truly DO appreciate everything everyone offers up as a solution. I think I'm more frustrated at myself that I haven't been able to come up with anything that works with Morrigan yet fully. Though we're making progress in the wet food department, I just can't get rid of it all YET. I say YET because I'm working my rear end off in trying to get it to be a totally canned diet.

And, you are so right about the kibble and I know this as I watch her numbers. Even tonight, in having a rather "off" cat because of tummy troubles from the new kibble change..even at 1/8th cup, she didn't want canned food much but, preferred the m/d kibble. In frustration and fear of her not wanting to eat, I finally caved and gave her another 1/8th cup...which she gladly ate....then, finally some wet food again. BUT...her number was WAY up for her numbers again tonight and I KNOW it IS kibble related. No doubt whatsoever.

I did try taking up the kibble entirely for 2 days straight and resolved to let hubby do it so that I wasn't tempted to "give in". After 2 days of him being firm with this resolve, she wasn't urinating, eating or having bowel movements. Oh boy...did I get told off by my vet for that one and the dangers there was in doing that. So, back down went the kibble and she was back to herself again. SLOWLY after that, I took one other member's suggestion and started taking out pieces of a measured amount. That's how I got down to the 1/8th cup and am hoping to get down even further to none eventually.

But, I jumped the gun and went too quickly with a food change and she's had a digestive upset for 2 days now and not herself. I'm going to have to go back to the 1/8th m/d for a day or until we see firmer bowel movements again then, start back at trying to get down further from that 1/8th cup. Morrigan has her own mind and gets VERY upset and holds grudges so, I have to balance out her temperament with what I can do and what sets her backwards...as well as nets me stitches!

I really DO fully appreciate all of your suggestions, thinking and help and KNOW you are right! I'm working hard on this!!!

But, in going back over Scooter's SS (poor Scooter! I'm going to have him stuck in my mind now ) and notes....I'm rather dubious about those 3 pieces of kibble being the cause of such upset. Because I (so sadly) saw the outcome for Scooter, it's making me wonder whether those 3 pieces of kibble were the cause of those numbers or the illness that poor Scooter was suffering from. Not at all that I doubt about kibble being a culprit in glucose levels. Not at all. Just saying that in Scooter's case...I think other things were coming into play as well there. But...hey....who am I to judge that? 3 pieces might have done it...or a nibble on a potato chip or bread crumbs??? Oh well....we can all only do our best and I'm certainly trying hard!

Thanks again, Julie!

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

The 3 pieces of kibble was a different cat.

Scooter was finding crunches left by the other cats, apparently. He was otj over a year before he died from cancer.

 

[Louellen]

The 3 pieces of kibble was a different cat.

Scooter was finding crunches left by the other cats, apparently. He was otj over a year before he died from cancer.

Don't you find Life rather "ironic"? What we worry about being the cause of something, is not usually what ends up being the real worry in the end.

But, I am working on Morrigan not getting kibble and hopefully, will get her off of it totally. In the meanwhile, as I work on this and get slow results and back-slides, I have to let her live her life and me, live mine as best I can too, while trying.

Thank you Julie