? Need advice on Neropathy

[Lynda and Louis]

Getting SugarLou on track

Hello All,
I've just gotten fairly good at the spreadsheet and learning the SLGS Method thanks to @Deb & Wink and @jt and trouble (GA) . I've referenced one of our threads above.

Now I'm worrying about Louis' neuropathy. It is not improving and seems to be getting steadily worse, albeit slowly. He has been on Zobaline 2x daily since 2/29/20. I know that in order for this supplement to work, their BG needs to be stable. And SugarLou is NOT stable. He's the bouncy boy of California.

Any advice for this worried Mom?

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Sighhh I feel your anxiety. I believe getting his numbers lower, on an even basis is the key. How much Zobaine are you giving 2 times a day? We didnt have the Zobaline back in my day but I crushed, 1 MethylB12 tablet on each serving of Troubles food. You cant over dose it, as they just pee out the extra. Then again his numbers were lower. I think I remember him testing out at 145-200 when we started the M-B12. I'm sure Deb will be able to give more help than I have.
GOOD LUCK!

 

[Margie and Jackson]

I just want to say don’t give up hope. My cat had severe neuropathy when I adopted him. Vets told me they’d never seen a case so bad. He could barely walk when he was surrendered to the shelter. Now, he’s able to jump onto our dining room table and walks normally. It’s amazing, especially since shelter staff said he wouldn’t recover. I didn’t have to get Jackson’s bg very low for this to happen either. He improved even when we were seeing mostly 300s on a RELION. Good luck and I hope Louis starts improving soon.

 

[Lynda and Louis]

Sighhh I feel your anxiety. I believe getting his numbers lower, on an even basis is the key. How much Zobaine are you giving 2 times a day? We didnt have the Zobaline back in my day but I crushed, 1 MethylB12 tablet on each serving of Troubles food. You cant over dose it, as they just pee out the extra. Then again his numbers were lower. I think I remember him testing out at 145-200 when we started the M-B12. I'm sure Deb will be able to give more help than I have.
GOOD LUCK!

Thanks ! The answer is I'm giving him 3mg tablet twice a day.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Ahhh boy its been a LONG time but I THINK the tablets we used were 5mg twice a day. Sending positives for your boy!

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

I just want to say don’t give up hope. My cat had severe neuropathy when I adopted him. Vets told me they’d never seen a case so bad. He could barely walk when he was surrendered to the shelter. Now, he’s able to jump onto our dining room table and walks normally. It’s amazing, especially since shelter staff said he wouldn’t recover. I didn’t have to get Jackson’s bg very low for this to happen either. He improved even when we were seeing mostly 300s on a RELION. Good luck and I hope Louis starts improving soon.

I just want to say you ARE amazing for adopting him when someone else “discarded” him because things got hard. I hope you receive all that goodness and love back tenfold! ))))

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

Thanks ! The answer is I'm giving him 3mg tablet twice a day.

Hi There,

My Minnie is on the vitacost version of zobaline which I found just as effective and it’s a lot more affordable. It comes in 5mg capsules so I was giving her 1 and 1/2 capsule a day at first. So same dose as Louis. I echo what everyone said it takes time and every cat is different. She improved fast the first 3 months after being regulated and then it slowed down and she’s about 90% better now with very minor improvements still happening that only a mother can see. Last night, she jumped on the high office chair for the first time in almost a year for example.
Anyway, I also have her on gabapentin and I’d ask your vet about it because it works on any arthritis the neuropathy may be causing that also makes it hard to use the back legs. It’s an anti-inflammatory and she’s on 50mg twice a day now. Lastly, I can’t say with 100% certainty it helped because she was on so many things at first, but she was also on an antioxidant that is suppose to combat the oxidation caused by the glucose. It’s made my Thorne and if money is not an issue, you may want to try it. No side effects as it’s a natural supplement and it’s made for small animals. I found the combo of all 3 really helped “jump start” her and now she’s no longer on the antioxidant.
But yes, ultimately being regulated is key and until that happens you have to be patient. It’s a long road but there’s an end to it

 

[Lynda and Louis]

Ahhh boy its been a LONG time but I THINK the tablets we used were 5mg twice a day. Sending positives for your boy!

Another question...do you know if you can give cats the Human B12? It seems like the same stuff and if I got the dose identical it would be SO MUCH cheaper than the Zobaline

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

Another question...do you know if you can give cats the Human B12? It seems like the same stuff and if I got the dose identical it would be SO MUCH cheaper than the Zobaline

I’ll let someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but my understanding is that it’s exactly the same thing. Zobaline created the cat version due to demand and request from cat owners and because some versions of human b12 have added sugar and/or synthetic sweetness that are bad for cats. A lot of other members here also use the vitacost b12, actually I discovered it on this forum, as it doesn’t have any sugar added and it’s much cheaper as you noticed. The only thing to know is that since it comes in a capsule, you can either put it into a pill pocket and give it to him like that if that works or open the capsule and mix the contents into the food. I’ve been doing that because I reuse the empty capsules for her gabapentin. And I can tell you it has no scent at all because Minnie is a very picky eater and she eats it all up! As opposed to when I have to give her probiotics and she smells it coming a mile away ha!

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Vitacost brand
Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 5000 mcg - 100 Capsules
It's 17.99 just be sure this is the one you buy
The only difference is the Zobaline has 200 mcgs of folic acid
So I buy the folic acid at the supermarket and crush it up and add it to the B-12
If you can't find the 200 mcg get the 400 mcg and cut it in half and crush that up
The Vitacost brand is a capsule so just open it and pour the powder on the wet food
Has no taste, no need to crush it up

You can give the whole capsule, what they don't need they pee out
Just sprinkle it on the wet food and mix it
It might take up to 3 months to see any improvement and getting his BG under control
I give one capsule a day

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

Another question...do you know if you can give cats the Human B12? It seems like the same stuff and if I got the dose identical it would be SO MUCH cheaper than the Zobaline

Yes Human..Found it at a health store.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

I’ll let someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but my understanding is that it’s exactly the same thing. Zobaline created the cat version due to demand and request from cat owners and because some versions of human b12 have added sugar and/or synthetic sweetness that are bad for cats.

LOL I was one of those "cat" people. Back then we didnt have a choice.
.

 

[Deb & Wink]

Another question...do you know if you can give cats the Human B12? It seems like the same stuff and if I got the dose identical it would be SO MUCH cheaper than the Zobaline

NO!!! The human version of the Zobaline, Xobaline has xylitol in it, which can be toxic to pets.

Get the Vitacost brand of methyl B12 that Diane Tyler's Mom recommends.

I’ll let someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but my understanding is that it’s exactly the same thing. Zobaline created the cat version due to demand and request from cat owners and because some versions of human b12 have added sugar and/or synthetic sweetness that are bad for cats.

Xobaline should NOT be used for cats. Zobaline can be used for cats. Or the Vitacost version of methyl B12.

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

NO!!! The human version of the Zobaline, Xobaline has xylitol in it, which can be toxic to pets.

Get the Vitacost brand of methyl B12 that Diane Tyler's Mom recommends.

Xobaline should NOT be used for cats. Zobaline can be used for cats. Or the Vitacost version of methyl B12.

I didn’t think she meant Xobaline. I thought she meant human b12 which Vitacost is... my bad sorry

and yes, xylitol is a sweetener that is harmful to cats

 

[Deb & Wink]

Looking at Louis spreadsheet, it looks like he is still bouncing like crazy, from the low BG levels, down in the blue range (100-199mg/dL, 5.5-11 mmol/L).

You are testing enough, that you could lower your decision threshold to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L).
So next time he is low, don't do a "token dose".

I think you need to keep being aggressive with the insulin dosing, as long as you can monitor.
Plus, I think you need to learn to "feed the curve" more. To keep those BG numbers from dropping too far too fast.
Try feeding at pre-shot, at +1 and +2. Hopefully, Louis will "like" his food and will eat at those times.

 

[Deb & Wink]

I didn’t think she meant Xobaline. I thought she meant human b12 which Vitacost is... my bad sorry and yes, xylitol is a sweetener that is harmful to cats

Deb was having a panic attack, sorry for the yelling.
Wanted to make sure people knew not to give the Xobaline to their cats.

Another type of human B12, without the artificial sweeteners in it would be ok.

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

Deb was having a panic attack, sorry for the yelling.
Wanted to make sure people knew not to give the Xobaline to their cats.

Another type of human B12, without the artificial sweeteners in it would be ok.

Haha I totally got that LOL

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

NO!!! The human version of the Zobaline, Xobaline has xylitol in it, which can be toxic to pets.

Wow thats a new one me. I got ours from a health store but so many years ago I cant even remember the ingredient list.
Trouble passed away years later. Now I wonder if that contributed to his passing.

 

[Chris & China (GA)]

Also a lot of human B-12 supplements contain the cyanocobalamin form of B-12 which doesn't work on the nerves.

You can use a human B-12 as long as the B-12 is the methylcobalamin form and doesn't have any sugars/xylitol or flavorings added

 

[Lynda and Louis]

Looking at Louis spreadsheet, it looks like he is still bouncing like crazy, from the low BG levels, down in the blue range (100-199mg/dL, 5.5-11 mmol/L).

You are testing enough, that you could lower your decision threshold to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L).
So next time he is low, don't do a "token dose".

HI DEB....Need some clarification here....
Not sure I understand this....Do you mean if he's at 150 at AMPS/PMPS then don't shoot? Or at his low? He's only been that low twice in the last week, and it was mid-cycle

I think you need to keep being aggressive with the insulin dosing, as long as you can monitor.
Plus, I think you need to learn to "feed the curve" more. To keep those BG numbers from dropping too far too fast.
Try feeding at pre-shot, at +1 and +2. Hopefully, Louis will "like" his food and will eat at those times.

 

[Lynda and Louis]

I think you need to keep being aggressive with the insulin dosing, as long as you can monitor.
Plus, I think you need to learn to "feed the curve" more. To keep those BG numbers from dropping too far too fast.
Try feeding at pre-shot, at +1 and +2. Hopefully, Louis will "like" his food and will eat at those times.


Also here...Do you mean increase by .25 when you say aggressive?
I will try the feeding you suggest. But if he is literally begging for food later in the cycle, do I just tough it out? Give him a tablespoon? Give him a morsel? Ugh. And yes, The BOUNCING.......
TAA L&L

 

[Larry and Kitties]

Also a lot of human B-12 supplements contain the cyanocobalamin form of B-12 which doesn't work on the nerves.

But the cyno form is converted to the methyl form and thus the cyano form should have some benefit for nerves.:
There are two forms of cobalamin (vitamin B12), cyanocobalamin and methylcobalamin. Methylcobalamin is the neurologically active form of vitamin B12, and is used by the body to correct or prevent neurological problems, but cyanocobalamin tends to be routinely offered rather than methylcobalamin.
Cyanocobalamin is an artificial form of vitamin B12, which has to be converted into methylcobalamin before the body can use it. In the process, a tiny amount of cyanide is produced
https://felinecrf.org/vitamin_b.htm

The two bioactive forms of vitamin B12 are methylcobalamin in cytosol and adenosylcobalamin in mitochondria. Multivitamins often contain cyanocobalamin, which is presumably converted to bioactive forms in the body.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanocobalamin

Thgus, it appears that the cy

 

[Deb & Wink]

Question got buried within your post reply, #20. Here is what you asked:
"HI DEB....Need some clarification here....
Not sure I understand this....Do you mean if he's at 150 at AMPS/PMPS then don't shoot? Or at his low? He's only been that low twice in the last week, and it was mid-cycle"

If Louis is 150 or above at the pre-shot test, AMPS or PMPS, then go ahead and give him his dose. If he is lower than the 150, stall without feeding, retest in 20 minutes and see if the BG levels are rising.

The decision threshold, is when you are thinking about what the dose should be at your pre-shot tests, the AMPS or PMPS test times, and making the choice to give the full dose, give a token dose, or skip the shot.

 

[Deb & Wink]

I think you need to keep being aggressive with the insulin dosing, as long as you can monitor.
Plus, I think you need to learn to "feed the curve" more. To keep those BG numbers from dropping too far too fast.
Try feeding at pre-shot, at +1 and +2. Hopefully, Louis will "like" his food and will eat at those times.


Also here...Do you mean increase by .25 when you say aggressive?
I will try the feeding you suggest. But if he is literally begging for food later in the cycle, do I just tough it out? Give him a tablespoon? Give him a morsel? Ugh. And yes, The BOUNCING.......
TAA L&L

By aggressive, I mean increasing the insulin dose after 6 cycles, if Louis is not down in the greens and blues at mid-cycle. A cycle is a 12 hour period, not a full 24 hour period. By aggressive, I mean trying very hard not to give that token dose, but keep to the full insulin dose whenever you are around to monitor. Token doses are more because you don't have enough data to know how low a dose will drop your cat.

As far as the begging for food later in the cycle goes, try to redirect his attention with some interactive play time or some other activity or interaction like brushing or petting him.

Cats have trained us well, and when Louis is begging, he may not be begging for food, and some attention is what he needs. You kind of have to readjust your thinking, and not always reach for some food if he is meowing at you.