Nasty cat fight - is this normal?

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Pumbaa

Pumbaa

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Pumbaa and Larry have been indoor cat buddies for almost 8 years now. They've played before and gotten into little skirmishes, but not like the fight I just broke up.

Larry is older than Pumbaa, and about twice his size. He also has his front claws while Pumbaa does not.

When I finally got them broken up, it was Pumbaa who had his jaws around Larry's throat. But I know that Larry instigated this. Maybe just by bothering Pumbaa and trying to get Pumbaa to play when Pumbaa didn't want to play. Pumbaa was behind the recliner in the corner, and Larry was the one who was wandering around and going near Pumbaa. There were a few little skirmishes before the big one.

Anyway, is this normal when one cat is sick and the other isn't? My adrenaline is really pumping right now. I certainly didn't want to reach in and grab one of them and risk getting bitten. I can't afford any more Urgent Care visits for me dealing with cat bites.
 
Not sure but this is what happened to me. I have Goomer (sugarbaby) at 15lbs and his mother Momma Kitten (civilian)at 9lbs. They are both indoor cats that we left alone one Saturday. On Sunday Goomers ear was all swollen up. So on Monday I took him to the vet ($170.) :o They shaved his ear and found a canine bite that had pierced his ear. :lol: I always told her to do that when he got rough, but never thought she would. :lol: So yes I would say it is possible.
 
Ronda, thank you for making me laugh!

I'm bothered by this because Pumbaa warned Larry off a few times before the "big fight".

I don't want to worry every time I leave the house now. I can certainly understand why Pumbaa didn't want to be bothered today...and why he was hanging out behind the recliner. Poor little guy...I don't know what he is feeling now that he's on the insulin and his BG numbers are so high.

Everyone is in my office with me now...Beck (Border Collie drooler) and Pumbaa are sleeping almost face to face, and Larry is on the window sill next to me. All is calm again, thankfully.

I think I'll put off poking at Pumbaa any more until his PMPS time...just to give him a break.
 
I did have some problems with Shadoe and civie Boo. They had always been very very close before Shadoe's dx, but then it seemed that Shadoe had times when she did NOT want to be bothered and did NOT want company. In time, Boo learned to respect that there were times Shadoe was to be avoided.
I get a feeling that the diabetics have some adjusting with their bodies and just don't feel the same but their house mates don't know all this... just some adjusting is needed.
 
Thank you, Gayle. That is what I am hoping...that Pumbaa just needs time right now to get his body to start working right again, and Larry doesn't understand why Pumbaa doesn't want to play. I'm curious, too... Do cats smell differently when they are on insulin?

BTW...I found an old post of yours and bookmarked it. It was a great explanation of the BG numbers over a 24 hour period. Last post on the page.
 
Feliway diffusers may help - unscented to us; friendly and calming scented to cats. Put them in the most frequented room(s).

Do play sessions of 15-20 minutes twice a day, per cat. It will help reduce stress, tire them a bit, and if done before feeding, stimulates the hunt, catch, kill, eat, groom, sleep cycle of normal cat behavior.

Feed them in separate bowls a bit apart from each other to minimize food competition.

If necessary, separate them for a day or so and do gradual reintroductions.

Cat fights as an early warning system? The diabetic may smell differently when having hyper- or hypo- glycemia; you might want to test, just to make sure there isn't a problem developing. We know that dogs can determine when people are having medical problems. Maybe cats can, too.
 
Actually, you can get Pheromone collars at Petsmart and put them on the cats.
Diffusers are OK for a room, but how likely is it for cats to stay put.... better to put the collar on them and have the calming go wherever they go.

Calming Collar for Cats

It worked well for all my cats.
 
Hi Suze,
you mentioned a window. What do the cats see outside the window? Is it possible they had a visitor outside the window? Animal, not human.
There is a syndrome, for lack of a better term, which a pet behaviorist called The Raccoon syndrome in her book "Psycho kitty." It involves the cat seeing a strange animal or another cat outside. It scares them and later they take it out on their house mate. I had that happen when I and 2 cats were in a second floor apt. I even saw the raccoon. I never associated the later attacks withthe raccoon visit until I read the book. I was atmy wits end because it was like the 1 cat wanted to kill the other.
I did try Feliway and it took that plus redirective behavior trainingto get her over the spells.
The fights were especially vicious. She is a little cat and she had Gandalf cowering under the bed for hours. If I
picked him up during these episodes, she would try to climb up my leg to get ti him.
 
My civvie, Phoenix attacked our last cat when he was checking out from cardiomyopathy. Like two days before he passed away. (Christmas Day!) and my brother had a cat that attacked him when his other cat was in the throes of a seizure, so I think it happens....they sense something is off.
Another thing you can try is 'Rescue Remedy'. There is one for pets. It is essences of certain plants. You can get it on line or at GNC. Feliway did not work with Phoenix, but OMG Rescue Remedy works for both him and Miss! I use it when we go to the vet.....a couple drops on a treat and NO meowing during the entire car ride! THAT relaxes ME! :lol: He actually purred at the vet last time and is normally so terrified he is just stiff with fear.
Good luck.....
 
Gayle, unfortunately, my cats won't wear collars. I think they might be too old to get them used to this.
 
Vicky: Good thoughts, but Pumbaa and Larry normally sit side-by-side by the patio door and watch the birds in the back yard.

Pumbaa had gone to lay down behind the recliner, which is in a corner under two windows. This is a normal place for him to go. I was working in my office and heard a cat screech. Ran out to the living room and Larry had been pestering Pumbaa for some good old cat wrestling. I got Larry to move away and tried to get him interested in something else. Came back to my office to work. A bit later I heard the major cat screeching/fighting. It seems that Larry just wanted Pumbaa to play, and Pumbaa was having nothing of it. In the nearly 8 years they have been together, they've had little scuffles but nothing like today.

Larry is about 3 years older than Pumbaa, and Pumbaa was only about 9 months old when Larry joined our family. Their relationship has changed as Pumbaa has aged...in the beginning, Larry and Pumbaa would sleep together, etc. Then Pumbaa became an adolescent/adult male and this seldom occurs anymore. Although Larry still has his front claws and Pumbaa doesn't, and Larry's canines (are they still called "canine teeth" in a cat?) hang below his lips, he is very, very gentle. I was very surprised to see Pumbaa with his teeth wrapped around Larry today during the fight, and Pumbaa was not going to let go.

The rest of the day has been uneventful, thankfully. Both of the cats settled down after all of my screaming to break up the fight, and came into my office for some attention. (This is normal.)

Poor Larry. Pumbaa has been eating the food in Larry's dish, and even though I have been trying to pay extra attention to Larry, and carry him to the food when Pumbaa isn't around, I think he sees that Pumbaa is getting a lot more attention these days, even if it's just for BG testing and weighing and litter box privacy invasions, etc. Plus, Larry is now adjusting to no longer having his beloved dry food.

Life with pets...never a dull moment, eh? :)
 
Maresydotes: I've heard of Rescue Remedy. Thank you for the reminder! My mom has a cat who normally has major diarrhea in his carrier on the way to the vet, so this is something I should just keep on hand!

Love that one of your cats is named Phoenix!
 
BJM: I didn't have time for a real reply earlier, so here goes...

I will definitely look up the Feliway diffusers...I had no clue anything like that existed. And this wasn't an issue before today.

Play sessions is a great idea. I've been doing flashlight play sessions with both cats every couple of days, but doing that before feeding is just a great idea. Both of the cats ate and then groomed tonight, and I was very happy to see that normal behaviour once again!

They do have separate food bowls, and they normally respected that, but Pumbaa has been such an eating machine lately that he has been pushing Larry away from the food instead of vice versa. A total change in dynamics. So I have been picking Larry up (he hates that) and carrying him to his food when Pumbaa-the-Hoover is no longer around. And I make sure that Larry gets first access to food at times as well.

I tested Pumbaa for urine ketones this morning and they are now negative. Pumbaa just got diagnosed as being diabetic on 4/3, and nothing like this has happened before. The only difference now is that he has been on Lantus 1 unit BID since Wednesday evening. That is why I wondered if being on insulin might change the smell of a cat.

I truly think that Larry just missed playing with his buddy, and Pumbaa, not feeling well as his body is adjusting to the insulin, wasn't going to put up with any crap.

I think I lost a year of my life trying to break up that cat fight...got any suggestions for me? :)

I really appreciate your responses to my questions. You have such a good grip on all of this and have so many great suggestions!

Suze




BJM said:
Feliway diffusers may help - unscented to us; friendly and calming scented to cats. Put them in the most frequented room(s).

Do play sessions of 15-20 minutes twice a day, per cat. It will help reduce stress, tire them a bit, and if done before feeding, stimulates the hunt, catch, kill, eat, groom, sleep cycle of normal cat behavior.

Feed them in separate bowls a bit apart from each other to minimize food competition.

If necessary, separate them for a day or so and do gradual reintroductions.

Cat fights as an early warning system? The diabetic may smell differently when having hyper- or hypo- glycemia; you might want to test, just to make sure there isn't a problem developing. We know that dogs can determine when people are having medical problems. Maybe cats can, too.
Click to expand...
 
For good feline behavior ideas, I've read several of Pamela Johnson-Bennett's books (Cat Behavior Associates which is where I've picked up the tip on play sessions.

If you've got the time, check your local library, or purchase a copy of one of her books, such as "Starting From Scratch (How to Correct Behavior Problems in Your Adult Cat)", or "Cat vs Cat (Keeping Peace When You Have More Than One Cat)".

The book of case studies - "Psycho Kitty" - was fascinating too.

I've used the Feliway diffuser in a specific room where an ill cat was having accidents ... and the others started spraying there. It really helped cut it down considerably. The ill cat had cancer which invaded her kidneys, causing renal failure and the excessive urination (she just couldn't make it to the litterbox all the time)
 
BJM: I will check out those books, especially ""Cat vs Cat (Keeping Peace When You Have More Than One Cat)" since that seems to have become a problem today.

I don't have cable, but have watched a few shows on Animal Planet about cat behavior problems and how we humans cause them. I learned so much, but have much more to learn.

I never punish my animals (feline or canine) for accidents as they were accidents. I have even complimented my kitties when they have barfed in easy to clean areas! :) So, missing the litter box would never be questioned here, other than why? Out of spite or due to physical problems.

I like how, you think, and research! It's my job to understand my cats behavior and not their job to tell me what they are expressing. I thought I knew this stuff, but it got more complicated once Pumbaa developed diabetes and our household turned upside down for him. Yes, the other cat and the drooler Border Collie and the humanbean have all been affected due to this DX. But it is my job, as the humanbean, to make this all work within the dynamics of all of us. I just wish there were 48 hours in the day instead of only 24. :(
 
Rescue Remedy is a lot cheaper than Feliway, but I would prefer Feliway for aggression, if it worked for mine. You can add Rescue Remedy to their water, but they don't drink much water since they have been on the wet food. It is GREAT for trips to the vet for my two, though.
I need to check out the books BJM mentioned, because Phoenix (named for my DHs birthplace) is a bully. He takes all his frustrations out on Miss, who is a sweetie. If he is angry at me (won't let him out, don't feed him when he wants food) he will jump on her with all 4 feet, fur flying! If she is sleeping on the chair, he chases her out, if she is on the couch, he has to lay there, if she is in the laundry basket shedding on my clean clothes, HE wants to do the shedding. I am sure he is not real good for her numbers. They used to sleep together, but had a falling out when we remodeled our downstairs. Maybe I can figure out how to reduce his aggression towards her. They can be in the same room, but it is a less than optimal situation. Sounds like good books to read.
 
Cat trees & boxes may help - cat trees to add vertical space (which may be accomplished with shelves that climb up a wall) and boxes to hide in, where no one can attack you from behind.

There are a couple of tips posted in PDFs at Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine Behavior Department, plus a newsletter archive. Also see the Indoor Pet Initiative: Cats for more information and ideas.

I'm very interested in the behavior side of things. In a former life, I earned an M.A.Ed. with a major of College and Community Counseling and discovered that the work environment wasn't a good fit - I'm more of an educator, than a counselor. Eventually (when I retire from the State, perhaps), I'd like to do feline behavior counseling and education to help reduce owner surrenders to shelters.

I've attached their behavior intake form; it asks a lot of questions which may help you think about the situation, plus do some of your own research.
 

Attachments

BJM: You'd be a wonderful feline behavior counselor!

I have a cat tree, but it's in my office and these days, Pumbaa and Larry are spending more time in the living room. Maybe I need to think about moving it.

I think I managed to prevent a situation from happening again this morning. My office shares a wall with the living room and Pumbaa normally sleeps behind a wicker chair in the living room on the other side of this wall. I heard tail thumping against the wall and went to the living room to investigate.

Larry was bothering Pumbaa (probably wanting to play). So I grabbed the handy flashlight and got both of them to burn off some energy by playing "chase the light" for about 10 minutes. Both of the boys are now sleeping calmly again after the activity. :) That was a great idea you provided yesterday!
 
My cats have a lot of skirmishes for what seems to be the same reason. One wants to play and the other is tired/sick/grumpy. I'm glad it's never gotten as serious as you describe!

One thing I read somewhere is that you should always feed the dominant cat first. Otherwise, the dominant cat feels their dominance is threatened and may take it out on the other cats in the household to show they really are dominant. When Scout got diabetes, she was getting all kinds of special treatment and food, which dominant Nipper did not appreciate... She would act out by bothering Scout while she was getting pokes, swatting at Scout, destroying things, etc. I had to make an effort to always put a bowl of food down for Nipper before I fed Scout, pet Nipper before I gave Scout her shot, give both a treat when one got poked. They still have scuffles but they always have so I don't think it is anything to do with the diabetes. :)

Lori
 
Lori, yes, they've had little skirmishes in the past, but I hope to never see a repeat of this one! Yikes!

Pumbaa, the sugarkitty, is the dominant cat, but I have been trying to give more attention to Larry lately, as well, since Pumbaa has been snarfing down his food, etc.

I've also been trying to play with them both, daily, to give them some exercise and extra attention. Their favorite game is "chase the flashlight beam". :)
 
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