Mystery of the high morning number solved

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Keryn_&_Rosie

Keryn_&_Rosie

Member Since 2019
Hi everyone,

We're only 5 days in to this brave new world and my home is adjusting to the special needs and routines for our beloved kitty. My 10 and 12 year old have been very helpful but are typical tweenagers in other regards.

I wondered why Rosie's was so thirsty this morning and I took her levels as usual and nearly cried up see this morning's reading of 26.9. Upon investigation my daughter confessed that she shooed the cat off the kitchen bench where she was licking the scraps off the dirty dishes!

My kids have been reminded of their chores and now understand why it will be so important to make sure that she doesn't have access to anything she shouldn't.

This must be so tough on Rosie's little body, she's is doing things she has never done such as weeing outside her litter box and jumping in the bench and crying for food.

Just thought I'd share my beginner's failure. We were doing so well... sigh...
 
At 5 days in, you ARE doing well to have your glucose testing going and a spreadsheet set up already! Hang in there. :bighug:
 
Aw thank you Peacock! I was soooo grateful to find this site and the great spreadsheet. The vet was very impressed with it when I sent it through.

Rosie is in trouble with hubby, our cleaner accidentally closed the door to our laundry where her litter tray is and are did a wee and poo on his clothes :-( Not a great day for her. Tomorrow will surely be better!
 
Hi Keryn,
Sorry you have had a bit of a mixed day. Poor Rosie not being able to get into her litter box:eek:
I had to laugh when I read about her being on the bench licking the plates. Sheba was a terror for doing things like that and I could not leave anything out on the bench and I also had to make sure the garbage bin door was shut as she would raid that too.

One thing I would suggest is to get some tests in during the cycle. It is important to see how low she is dropping......she could be dropping quite low overnight as you have had some blue preshots. And the high numbers in the morning could be because she has dropped low overnight. To keep her safe I would always get a test in before you go to bed and if it is lower than the preshot I would test again a bit later to see it is not dropping lower again. Also the same thing doing the morning cycle ....try to get a test in around +4 or +5

Have you had a chance to ask about swapping over to Lantus yet?
 
Thanks Bron, I'm at work during the day so I'll do some +4 testing when I get a day at home. Is there somewhere I can read about the lower numbers at night making her bgl numbers high in the morning?
 
Lower numbers can happen anytime but cats often do drop lower at night. The reason I thought Rosie might be dropping low is because her Preshots are quite low and unless you get some testing in after that you have no idea how low they are going. If they do drop too low, or lower than she is used to dropping since this FD started or drops too fast, she could well be bouncing which is where her body panics and dumps glucose and regulatory hormones into the blood stream and her BSL shoots up. Bounces can last from 1 to 6 cycles and there is nothing you can do about them once they have happened. But there are ways to try and stop bouncing in the first place and the first thing to do is to check the BSL to see if it is actually happening.
What time do you give the insulin doses? Can you get a test in before you go to work? And each night try and get at least 1 test in to see how low Rosie is dropping. If she is dropping you will need to test again to see she is coming back up again.
Here is the link to the caninsulin page.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/caninsulin-vetsulin-and-n-nph.19/
Read the yellow stickies at the top for good information.
I am going to tag @Rachel @MrWorfMen's Mom who are very experienced with caninsulin to see if they can help you further. I am a bit concerned about some of the lower pm Preshots and the dose.
 
Bron and Sheba said:
Lower numbers can happen anytime but cats often do drop lower at night. The reason I thought Rosie might be dropping low is because her Preshots are quite low and unless you get some testing in after that you have no idea how low they are going. If they do drop too low, or lower than she is used to dropping since this FD started or drops too fast, she could well be bouncing which is where her body panics and dumps glucose and regulatory hormones into the blood stream and her BSL shoots up. Bounces can last from 1 to 6 cycles and there is nothing you can do about them once they have happened. But there are ways to try and stop bouncing in the first place and the first thing to do is to check the BSL to see if it is actually happening.
What time do you give the insulin doses? Can you get a test in before you go to work? And each night try and get at least 1 test in to see how low Rosie is dropping. If she is dropping you will need to test again to see she is coming back up again.
Here is the link to the caninsulin page.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/caninsulin-vetsulin-and-n-nph.19/
Read the yellow stickies at the top for good information.
I am going to tag @Rachel @MrWorfMen's Mom who are very experienced with caninsulin to see if they can help you further. I am a bit concerned about some of the lower pm Preshots and the dose.
Click to expand...
I completely agree. Looks like the kitty is bouncing. Remember that testing pre shot is just to know if dosing is safe, not to “adjust dose” based on the pre shoot number.
Stick with 1.7 dose, then check every 2 hours to see what is the lowest that kitty goes and when.
My kitty reaches nadir at +4 on prozinc. Every kitty is different, you are doing amazingly well! You got this kitty mom!
 
Keryn_&_Rosie said:
Hi everyone,

We're only 5 days in to this brave new world and my home is adjusting to the special needs and routines for our beloved kitty. My 10 and 12 year old have been very helpful but are typical tweenagers in other regards.

I wondered why Rosie's was so thirsty this morning and I took her levels as usual and nearly cried up see this morning's reading of 26.9. Upon investigation my daughter confessed that she shooed the cat off the kitchen bench where she was licking the scraps off the dirty dishes!

My kids have been reminded of their chores and now understand why it will be so important to make sure that she doesn't have access to anything she shouldn't.

This must be so tough on Rosie's little body, she's is doing things she has never done such as weeing outside her litter box and jumping in the bench and crying for food.

Just thought I'd share my beginner's failure. We were doing so well... sigh...
Click to expand...
I had a similar issue just a few days ago. I was am testing and it showed higher than normal. Buuuut I got a pet camera ( logicircle) and upon checking... I noticed she ate some dry that my other kitty pushed of the tall dresser. Just a few crumbs gets this sugar kitty on high numbers.
So I tested 2 hours after, w o food and bam! Great numbers. Invest in a kitty cam if you can, they are great! ( also now all the cats are on nulo, which is low glycemic impact and suitable for kittens and adults, so if a few crumb drops out, it won’t be as bad as the other food :)
 
I didn't get the tag and just happened to be browsing! :(

I agree with Bron and Athenaglaukopis that we need to see how low the dose is taking Rosie. From those lower PMPS readings, I think she may have dropped low for her or fast during the day and hadn't quite reached peak bounce by PMPS and then the evening dose clicked in and sent her low again. Kitties will bounce if they drop too fast, have a very significant drop or just go lower than they are used to. Making it a habit to get a test before bed every night will add to the data. Even +2 post shot will tell you if kitty is starting to drop and how quickly. Whenever possible get a mid cycle test on the day cycle too. Caninsulin onsets early and some cats can have a significant drop in BG by +3 post shot. Others reach their nadir a bit later... between +4 and +6 post shot.

I see the vet gave you a sliding scale dose. I am not a fan of sliding scales. Although they do work with some kitties when you have lots of data, they can be problematic in the early days when you are trying to establish the best dose to get kitty regulated. I personally would keep Rosie on the 1.7u until you can get some mid cycle tests even if BG at pre-shot is over 15 mmol. The lower PMPS could be an indication that the 2.0u dose is a bit high and is probably causing some of the bouncing. :)
 
Ok so PMPS was 7.1 gave 1.7iu and retested +3.5hrs and got 11.3. We'll see what the numbers look like in the morning.
 
Keryn_&_Rosie said:
Ok so PMPS was 7.1 gave 1.7iu and retested +3.5hrs and got 11.3. We'll see what the numbers look like in the morning.
Click to expand...
I think Rosie probably dropped lower than the 7.1 during the day today and she’s starting to bounce again from that. That’s good data to get though. Try and get some tests in during the am cycles too, either before you go to work or when you come home. All data is good.
You’re doing a really good job. Lucky Rosie.
 
Just doing the maths and it looks like your preshots are around 7.30am and 7.30 pm....is that right?
Depending on what time you left for work in the morning and came home at night......you might be able to get either +1 or 2 in the am or +10 or+11 in the afternoon. Is that feasible?
 
:arghh: 30.7 at 6am!
Ok I'm going to give her the 1.7 despite what the vet has recommended.
Now, here's where I might have been stuffing up. My gut instinct had said a number this high is bad so I've given the wet food in the morning and Hills DM at night when her numbers have been lower. I'm going to swich this thinking and give her the dry food now so her levels don't drop too low during the day. I can get another test in about an hour post shot before I go to work.
 
Do you leave the DM dry food out overnight for Rosie to eat at will? Is it possible she had some within the last couple of hours before you tested? That DM dry food is far too high in carbs and is likely adding to that high BG this morning especially if she had just chowed down on it. At that BG range, Rosie is not going to go too low and leaving out wet food should be quite sufficient.
 
At the moment she has a ravenous appetite which is very our of character plus she's about 500g down on her regular weight. Anything I put out for her she eats within a few minutes. So there's no other grazing. I know I need to get her completely over to wet food so I'll work to that goal.
 
Hi Keryn
It is better if you can try and keep the carb number for each cycle about the same. So at the moment while you are feeding some dry..... it would be better for Rosie if you gave some wet and some dry food each cycle. Giving wet one cycle and dry the next means one cycle she is getting low carb and the next cycle she is getting high carb. Try and make it so it’s about the same carbs each cycle.
It is completely normal that she is very hungry at the moment because unregulated cats can’t absorb all the nutrients in the food and they often need more food until their numbers come down to more normal numbers.
Are you giving her several smaller meals during the day as well as a good amount before shots? A lot of us divide the food up so we can give some around +3 and +5. You need to make sure she eats well before each shot but a couple of smaller snacks later is a good idea.
If you are not home during the day to feed you might like to look at getting an auto feeder. I found one invaluable. They are about $45 here in Australia online.
You will need to be at home to test frequently when you start reducing the dry food because that will affect the numbers.
 
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Home now +11 and she's at 20.9. What horrible day she must have had.She's not seeming herself this afternoon either.

Good advice re: consistent carb levels too.

I've felt really positive about this but it's feeling a bit overwhelming at the moment with me working and not seeing what's happening during the day.

I'll be fine, just a little sooky moment, I hadn't had one at all so far so it was about time I fell into a pile of emotions.

Consistency will be my plan of attrack. Same food, same time, same dose and an aim to get a clearer picture of what this insulin is doing. Changing her insulin is not an option for me right now.
 
Keryn_&_Rosie said:
Home now +11 and she's at 20.9. What horrible day she must have had.She's not seeming herself this afternoon either.

Good advice re: consistent carb levels too.

I've felt really positive about this but it's feeling a bit overwhelming at the moment with me working and not seeing what's happening during the day.

I'll be fine, just a little sooky moment, I hadn't had one at all so far so it was about time I fell into a pile of emotions.

Consistency will be my plan of attrack. Same food, same time, same dose and an aim to get a clearer picture of what this insulin is doing. Changing her insulin is not an option for me right now.
Click to expand...
It’s very normal to have ‘moments’ during this journey. We have all been there!
The biggest thing FD taught me was patience!
You might like to start to post over on the caninsulin forum now where the people there all use that insulin. They will be able to help you more than I can as I don’t use caninsulin
 
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