my Kitty is Starving ??!

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EddiesMom

EddiesMom

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- Eddie was always free fed dry cat food, 7 days ago we started Purina DM wet
he loves the stuff but seems to be ravenous while eating breakfast, now during the day he's climbing on the kitchen island, kitchen sink... which he's never
done before.... his second feeding is 12 hours later and then a little midnight snack.

- He's 13 pounds and we feed him 1 - 6oz can plus 2oz as his late snack..
is this enough?? the vet says 1 6oz can for the day... but man .. he's just sooo hungry !

I am assuming this is because he's still not regulated... but when does this subside?
too much insulin? not enough? ... SIGH!
 
Until he's regulated, just feed him what he wants.
My Oliver was eating 30oz a day before he was regulated; he was always hungry!
Now, if he eats 15oz, that's alot. Many days, he eats much less.
My Shadoe was eating around 24oz a day before regulated and now eats like a bird.
The body cannot get the nutrients it needs from the foods, so just let him eat.

Also, for a diabetic, going long periods with no food is not good. You are better off to feed several smaller meals all through the day and you will have better regulation.
 
Yes, let him eat as much as he wants for now, he needs more food since he can't process what he is eating very well.

I notice in your signature that you are giving 3u of Lantus twice a day, and you just switched Eddie from dry food to wet DM only? Are you home testing? If not, I urge you to lower the dosage of the Lantus, go back to 1u twice a day and please learn how to home test to keep Eddie safe. That is a pretty high dose, and since you have switched to wet food, his insulin requirement is probably much less than it was with dry food. He may also be acting so hungry because his BG is going very low.

Do you have a hypo kit/karo syrup?
 
Actually, you CAN overfeed ad thereby make regulation more difficult! Feed but do not feed excessively or the insulin has too much to work against.

Are you testing blood glucose levels at home?

Jen
 
Jen & Squeak said:
Actually, you CAN overfeed ad thereby make regulation more difficult! Feed but do not feed excessively
Click to expand...

I remember Hilary (H and Zug) posting on this issue on the old board (Think Tank) but I cannot find that thread.

The bottom line was that it may very well NOT be in a diabetic cat's best interest to feed them all that they want.

Try to hit a 'happy medium'. Most *non*-diabetic cats eat around 6 ounces of food a day or around 200-250 calories - give or take. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the literature to tell us how much to feed an unregulated diabetic cat.
 
my guess would be up to double their normal amount--so say up to 11oz if necessary. i think i allowed about a third more food. i am a free feeder per se -- meaning i feed whenever they are hungry -- but i only give a little food at a time, so they're happy they're getting food and that seems to be enuf; plus, they're eating more frequent small meals a day rather than fewer but larger meals.

remember, too, that a cat taken off dry food will be even hungrier. junk food makes us feel really full (as does grain). i transitioned 6 cats to wet at the same time when cleo was diagnosed diabetic and they drove me insane for about a month til they finally got used to the new diet.

so to some extent i'd add a little food but expect to wait it out a bit (meaning, mostly just put up with your cat's really bugging you for food) til you get more regulation and more adaptation to the new diet.

sometimes cats are anxious for food because their blood sugar is low. If you can home test, whenever your cat really bothers you for food you might want to check blood sugar to make sure you're not in a hypo situation.

i'm glad you don't want to wait long for a dose decrease. but for some kitties it's needed immediately (that same day) because of fewer carbs in the diet. if you can home test, you can catch that. it's not hard -- we all learned, and i doubt most of us are any quicker at learning new things than you are.
 
- to answer a few questions... i am not hometesting yet - but will be starting this wed
- the vet indicated that i shouldn't worry about that right now...... and after 2 weeks of wet feeding to come in for a glucose reading to
determine if we should decrease his insulin level. i will not wait 2 weeks... but insead 8 days. I do feel he should be
decreased but i haven't tested his numbers yet.

he's full of energy, loves to socialize with us and this is for sure the outcome of the wet food.
prior to that all he did was sleep, eat, and hide and drink sooo much water, since the wet food he's changed 100%.
but still on 3 units/2x a day. his numbers were pretty high 8 days ago at the vets..

his levels have been 220 / 310 / 375 / the 375 was last monday night prior to wet food conversion.

the 300 were at the vet.. so the measured accordingly i am guessing..
we will be home testing and i am anxious to get started...
 
We will be anxious too. Your numbers are not that high at the vet, and if there is any vet stress, they will be higher there than at home when Eddie is relaxed. And 3 units is quite a bit of insulin. When we changed from dry to wet, Oliver's numbers went down 100 points overnight. If Eddie is anything like that, your numbers could be pretty low.

Watch him for any usual behaviors: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/view ... 28&t=15887 If you want to learn how to hometest now, we have taught hundreds of people over the internet.
 
You don't need to wait for the vet to teach you to home test, we can help you learn how. It isn't that hard to do, and it will keep your kitty safe. Right now you don't know how low he may be going, his numbers were not that high to begin with and were stress affected, so he could be getting into very low numbers. I'm glad you are seeing an improvement in his behavior, good signs....but he is at risk for a hypo.

Please consider starting to home test today...it may save your kitty from an emergency situation. You can get a meter from any pharmacy, many people (including me) use the Relion meters from Walmart...they are accurate and reliable and inexpensive to use. If you can't start home testing now, please lower the dose until you can start...for safety's sake.

ETA: Cats can go from having no symptoms to a full blown hypo in a very short time. While it is a good idea to watch for symptoms, lack of symptoms doesn't mean your cat isn't at risk. My own cat has had BG readings of 35 with no symptoms other than hunger. If I had not been testing and intervened, he would have had a hypo event. While I don't want to scare you, I do want you to understand the importance of keeping your cat safe. It's better to have high BG than a hypo from too low....while high BG is not good and can cause damage to your cat's organs long term, a hypo is a life-threatening emergency.

Do you have a hypo kit ready in case of emergency?
 
Just my two cents on feeding an unregulated cat...

You're right, Eddie's body isn't handling food the way it should so long as he is unregulated. If it were my cat, I wouldn't feed him all he wants and I wouldn't feed him large portions of food a few times a day. What I would do is increase his food, but feed smaller portions over the course of a day.

What you should avoid, in my view, is having Eddie wolf down huge quantities of food in one feeding. If you avoid that, you will likely avoid him eating to the point he vomits or eating so much his activity level declines.

How much to increase his food? Well, you certainly do not want Eddie to lose alot of weight, nor do you want him to gain weight (since he is already at 13 pounds). Many people have/do feed their unregulated cats all they want immediately after diagnosis, knowing that they will be starting treatment in a few days. In your case, however, Eddie is already receiving a significant dose of Lantus. You really need to start home testing to determine what is going on with Eddie's BG levels over the course of a day. Although it can't be known with certainty until you start home testing, it may be that 3 units BID is too much insulin and the correct dose for Eddie's regulation is smaller.
 
thanks for your advice everyone... wowzers this can be overwhelming...

I will be home testing ... as it seems to be the smart thing to do
and Eddie's insulin will be decreased
I will keep you posted ;-)

and i like the suggestion of feeding home a smaller portion in the morning.. maybe 4 meals in stead of 3
then he won't scarf all his food for the day and have to wait 12 hours for his next feeding.

thank you!
 
We all know it's overwhelming, we've been in your shoes! Hang in there, it will get easier. ;-)

It is a good idea to split up the food into smaller meals if you can do that. Another good thing to do is add water to the food, diabetics tend to be dehydrated and the extra water is good for them...plus it may help him feel fuller and not so ravenous.
 
Hi Eddiesmom and Eddie! Waving hello from Cape Breton...

Your vet may be interested in reading this. The Canadian Veterinary Assoc has a site for information for pet owners. Their official advice for treatment of feline diabetes is to hometest. http://www.animalhealthcare.ca/contents ... s=diabetes

Recently, a home blood glucose monitoring initiative was reported in the literature that provided a practical method for owners to check blood sugar at home by doing a small prick in the ear and using a low volume automated glucose meter. This is a big step forward in feline diabetes management because it is well known that while in hospital for monitoring, cats tend to not eat well and are stressed, both of which can interfere with blood sugar assessment. It is important to have a blood glucose curve done after insulin therapy is begun so that the veterinarian can check how quickly a particular cat processes the insulin type prescribed. Cats have a very wide spectrum of time that it takes to metabolize the insulin, and this test is very important for the safety of long-term insulin therapy.
Click to expand...

Encouraging clients to start hometesting immediately is the way to go. It gives you so much knowledge and power over this disease.

Yes, Eddie is hungry. Diabetics don't process food correctly, so feeding more is OK - just not to overfeed. Several small meals are good, and feel free to supplement with pure protein snacks like some chicken.

Purina DM wet is a good low carb food, but can be expensive. Regular ol' Fancy Feast has lots of good low carb, good quality canned food. In Canada, we actually have a good selection of grocery store brands that are low carb. Our Compliments (Sobeys/IGA) and President's Choice (SuperStore, LobLaws) foods are good choices. One big bonus is that the PC and Our Compliments cost less than FF, and several of them have better ingredients!

Not all PC brands or OC brands are carb-free, but most are pretty low. (Anything under about 7% on Janet's charts is my own personal guideline).

My guys like the PC and the Our Compliments just as much as Fancy Feast. Janet has added a section of PC foods to her international food list if you want to check it out. The OC ones aren't on yet because we can't get the "as fed" analysis of the food. Also, WalMart makes a small tin (85g, same as FF) called "Special Kitty" and LOTS of those are also low carb, and cheaper. There are several PC and Special Kitty flavours that are low carb- like duck- which FF doesn't even carry. Janet has quite a few of those listed. Just make sure you are checking her non-US charts.

If they are not in Janet's list, the next best thing is to label read- avoid obvious grains (wheat, rice, corn) and other carbs (potatoes, peas) and things called "food starch".. which I assume is cornstarch, but the "starch" part says "stay away" to a sugarcat.

Good to see you on board!
 
EddiesMom said:
and after 2 weeks of wet feeding to come in for a glucose reading to
determine if we should decrease his insulin level. i will not wait 2 weeks... but insead 8 days. I do feel he should be
decreased but i haven't tested his numbers yet.
Click to expand...

Please click on the Diabetes link below and go to the STOP sign section. I put many things in RED because this is a critical concept to understand. Please note what Sue stated about "overnight".

Start except from my website:

If you change your diabetic cat's diet to one with lower carbohydrates, he will, in all probability, IMMEDIATELY (not days or weeks later) require a reduction in his insulin dosage. He may also immediately go into 'remission' and not need any insulin at all.

If this warning is ignored, you may very well end up with a cat in a hypoglycemic crisis (dangerously low blood sugar) which can result in death, or brain damage.

If you take only one point away from this page, it needs to be the understanding that if you stop pouring carbs into your cat by switching to a low-carb canned food diet (or even a dry food diet with lower carbs than you have been feeding), you MUST be aware of the probable immediate and significant impact on your cat's insulin needs.

If I could shout this from the rooftops, I would.

On a weekly basis, I hear of reports of cats that ended up near-death - or actually did die - from insulin overdoses because lay caregivers and veterinarians did not understand this basic concept.

I often hear of my colleagues recommending "re-testing in a month" - while the caregivers are implementing a diet change along with administering a set amount of insulin - which is often too high.

Or - the caregiver reads this article and decides to change the diet on their own and does not understand the need to lower the insulin dosage.

When someone understands half of the concept (changing to a low-carb diet), but does not understand the other half of the concept (the highly probable need to lower the insulin dosage) disaster often strikes.

End except.

Again, please go to the STOP sign section in the Diabetes article linked below.
 
This is from the Wellness pet food site.
I assume its the protocol for Non-diabetic cats.

For 5.5 oz. can:
For adult cats, feed 1 can per 6-8 lbs. of body weight per day.
 
Gingers Mommy (Lori) said:
For 5.5 oz. can:
For adult cats, feed 1 can per 6-8 lbs. of body weight per day.
Click to expand...

As strange as it may sound, we need to disregard what most pet food labels state since they overestimate the average cat's needs by quite a bit.

There was an article in one of my vet journals recently that supports my statement above.
 
wow, gayle, that is a lot of food. do you think it's coz they're acrokitties? i don't know anything about whether they eat the same amount as a nondiabetic or not. it probably would be good to know, coz we don't often know at the beginning whether a new poster's cat will turn out to have acromegaly and we may need to tailor the food advice to that as well ...

my norwegian forest cat shadow is a very big boned kitty and 17.5 lbs. he eats the same amount as my other kitties, tho (but he's first in line for human food snacks). he's a civie.
 
I have 5 cats -- 4 "normal" sized and 1 Maine coon mix -- 2 are well-regulated diabetics and one is fairly well-regulated HyperT.

They eat 2 12oz cans of Wellness per day and sometimes need another 5.5 or 12oz can (usually don't finish a third 12oz can --)

so --- approx 66 lbs of cats eating 30 to 36oz of food per day

All of my kitties are between ages 11 and 14, so not bouncing-off-the-walls activity levels.

When Norton was poorly regulated and ravenous, he would eat about 12 oz of food per day. As his insulin dose approached the right values, his appetite reduced, even though he was an Acrocat.
 
I am not sure how the acro figures into the picture but with mine both sort of regulated, as well as acros can be, they are eating much much less now.

Oliver arrived here in March and weighed about 15lb. He has a very LARGE frame so that weight looked like he had been starved. I could feel ALL of his ribs and every single bone in his spine. His head looked like it belonged on a much bigger cat. I cried for him.

I tried a 5.5oz can down and it was inhaled. I did not want to give him lots at once because some animals will eat till they explode, so I did space out his feedings. He has never been pushy and must have come from a strict household as he was terrified to be put up on any furniture (now, I have to get myself another chair as he seems to have claimed mine for himself).

Slowly, it was apparent that he needed the food. I have never seen a cat eat like that either. His BG were all sky high and I did not want to deprive what seemed to be a starving kitty, so I just let him eat, and I added up the amounts. Scary numbers some days.

I was surprised but not shocked as I had gone through the same thing with Shadoe just a few months earlier. While she did not eat to such a daily total, she did love her food. She was eating much less as she was regulated so I was hoping Ollie would be the same.

And he was.

If Ollie eats even 12oz in a day, that's alot for him, and he is up to 24lb now. He could probably afford to lose a couple lbs now, so we will work on that now. He's about 33inches lying down, so he's not a small boy.
If Shadoe eats half that, between 6 and 8oz a day, that's alot for her, and she is around 14lb.

It is for that reason that I say, let them eat, but space it out. There must be a reason for it, and while you are getting them regulated, do you also want to starve them? I think not.

The best way is to spread the food amount out through the day. I think most people know if their cat is a gulper or one who has always eaten every bit put down regardless of the quantity. If their appetite is increasing, there's a reason for it, so feed them and look into the reason.
 
.... so we got eddie tested by a vet tech today.. his BG was 50 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
he was on wet food all week for the first time and VET said to keep him at 3units x 2 for a week.... so today is test day
cause i haven't started home testing.. but did get a reader today
Eddie just won't sit still enough for me to get any blood from him... so i can't test tonight

vet hasn't called to do a follow up..
it's needle time.. what do i do ?? skip it ??
and then what???

i 'm stressed!
 
Skip! If his bg was 50 at the vet under stress, who knows what it is at home. With numbers like those, you just can't shoot blind. And especially not that kind of a dose!

How can we help you hometest? What exactly are you having trouble with?
 
i am just stressed, so i am sure eddie feels that
he just won't sit still and i can't seem to see any blood vessels to prick!
i'll try in an hour or so...
 
So, let's work on getting a number tonight so you know what to do.

If he won't sit still, have you tried the burrito? We put a towel down on the couch next to the arm. Then I could sit next to Oliver, wrap him up so only his head was showing and press him lightly into the couch to keep him still. If that won't work, you could try the clothespin trick: http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_ ... _peg_trick It mimics the way a mother cat holds her kittens by the scruff of the neck.
 
I had a brief panic moment thinking he was 50 in Cdn measurements! LOL! Thought he was running super high!

We are missing an important piece of info : how long after his shot was he tested? If that was his midcycle number, his nadir, and then he climbed up from there, then maybe you just need a slight dose decrease. If that was just after (or before) his shot, then he needs a drastic decrease. or none.

In any case, you need to keep trying to hometest so we can see what's happening. It does get easier, and you don't need to see the vein, just poke along the edge of the ear. Warm it very well, hold something firm behind the ear, and practice. Lots of practice, and no stress ... right now, just get the 2 of you used to the routine, no concept of failure.
 
this reading was about 8 hours after his 2 units this morning.
i received an email from his vet, and i've relaxed a bit!

thanks for your comments!!
 
If that 50 reading was at +8, I would bet his number was alot lower earlier!
I think you should skip any shot till you can test to find out the BG now.
What did the vet have to say?
 
It is not necessary to look for a vein, I always just poked the thicker edge of the ear about 1/3 of the way up from the base. Others poke the thin edge...either way, you are likely to get enough blood. Just use a very thin sheen of vaseline to make the blood bead up

Do you understand why people are saying to reduce the dose and not shoot? Because if 50 is as low as he ever goes, that is great. But you don't know if it is as low as he went, and you don't know if vet stress inflated his blood glucose levels (it can happen but not always). You need a margin of safety before hypoglycemia territory which can be 40ish depending on the cat.

Jen
 
Kristine, with that BG level and the size of dose your vet has suggested, you simply must home test and not shoot insulin blindly. If you can't get a test using Eddie's ear, then go for a paw pad. At this point, it is more important that you test, not where you test.
 
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