Mr. Sluggo: 120 PMPS, 36@6, 62@6.25, 63@6.75

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Only apparent symptom at the time was lethargy. Tx with drop of honey under tongue followed by his usual fancy feast beef & chicken feast with fortiflora (blended in a nutribullet). Plan to decrease dose to 1.75U BID under TR protocol. Any other suggestions?
 
No other suggestions from me. Just wanted to say his numbers are looking good at the moment. And congrats on the reduction! :D
 
Great catch!!

Congratulations on the reduction!

Even with the reduction on his next shot, if at all possible, I'd try to get a few more tests in. His depot can effect several of the next cycles and you sure don't want him dropping any lower
 
I was thinking a mini-curve tomorrow at the lower dose (not working so I can do it) wouldn't be a bad idea.
 
73 @ 7.25. Looks like he's out of the woods. Hope he comes up in the next 4 hours or so, so I can dose again. Thanks much for the advice.

I sure am burning through test strips these days. Thank god amazon has the breeze2 ones for .23 a piece. They charge a buck a piece at the local walmart & grocery store. Down to my last 50. Time to reorder.
 
With Lantus we often don't see hypo symptoms until the cat is severely low - which is one more reason why we're so pro-home-testing here.

It looks like you're just on day 6 of Lantus - is that right? You might want to insert a row in the ss showing "Starting Lantus" or something like that so it's obvious.

One of the biggest things that people have to get used to in switching from one of the other insulins to Lantus or Levemir is that you're now using an entirely different insulin and the dosing decisions are made differently. Take a look here at the sticky on the Tight Regulation Protocol.

"General" Guidelines:
  • Hold the initial starting dose for 5 - 7 days (10 - 14 consecutive cycles) unless the numbers tell you otherwise. Kitties experiencing high flat curves or prone to ketones may want to increase the starting dose after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles).
  • Each subsequent dose is held for a minimum of 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) unless kitty earns a reduction (See: Reducing the dose...).
  • Adjustments to dose are based on nadirs with only some consideration given to preshot numbers.
The reason the the initial starting dose is held for a week, which is what we'd have suggested for you, especially given that he was seeing blood sugar tests under 100 on the 1.5u that you started with, is that it takes that long to build up the Lantus depot in the body. It then slow-releases back into the body. Think of it as being somewhat like timed released drugs. Here's the link to info about the Lantus Depot and how it works.

After you inject it into your subcutaneous tissue, the acidic solution is neutralized by your body to a neutral pH. Because glargine is not soluble at a neutral pH, it precipitates out into a form that's not soluble in subcutaneous fat, and there forms a relatively insoluble depot. From that pool, or depot, of precipitated glargine in the tissues, small amounts slowly move back into solution over time and then to the bloodstream.
Because you are still within the first week of using Lantus, I'd actually suggest you drop back to the 1.5u. Getting into the 30's when you are just starting out suggests the dose is definitely too large, and I'd be concerned that reducing only by 0.25u isn't enough. I'd go back to 1.5u and hold that dose for a few more days unless he goes below 50 again. Because he was getting under 100 on 1.5u right from the beginning, I think that's another indicator that 1.5u would be a better dose than 1.75u.

In the General Guidelines above, the other important switch in thinking for people who have become experienced at using other insulins is that with the long-lasting insulins (Lantus and Levemir) the dosing decisions are made by how LOW the dose takes the cat. You don't adjust the dose based upon the preshot tests. That's a hard transition for many people to make, but it's really important to wrap your head around. We look at the previous 3-5 days worth of cycles and look at how low that dose has caused the blood sugar to go, then decide if the dose should be held a little longer or increased.

The other important thing to learn about Lantus is that when you change the dose, the insulin depot will change as well. The depot change lags behind the dose change. For example, tonight's 2.0u shot will affect as many as 6 more cycles - more at the beginning than 6 cycles later, but let's say you reduce to 1.5u in the morning. The depot from the 2u that you've been shooting will continue to release at a higher level and will continue to "help" with blood sugar control for the next several cycles. So you may see lower numbers in the next day or two from it. Or he may also bounce from getting into the 30's. That was pretty low and most cats will bounce from that. Or if he's been seeing numbers in the 30's recently he may not bounce. We'll know tomorrow.

If you're following Tight Reg you don't need to do a curve tomorrow. Since you're low on strips, I'd get a preshot and a +2 and decide from there when to test next.

We encourage new people to post before increasing the dose until you've learned what to look for and how to see if he needs more or not. Just post and put something like "dose advice?" in your subject line. This board is busy, but not everyone feels comfortable helping with dosing decisions, so it helps if you give a few hours of notice before you need to shoot. Like maybe post in the morning for help deciding on what to shoot that evening.

There's lots to learn but just keep posting and keep asking questions. We'll try to help you learn how Lantus works and how to help Mr. Sluggo.

And welcome to the group! It's the best place you never wanted to be. :)
 
Going to stick with 1.75 for now. He made it through 6 doses of 2U dosed at the half-life and the wheels only came off the cart at peak for dose #6. Good, TR up til then with really nice numbers. And I'll watch him a bit more closely for the next few cycles. Yes, this is a bit more aggressive even than TR, but I do have a relevant background and time to watch him.

I've been screwing around with this for two months now (7 weeks with another insulin). The longer he remains poorly regulated the smaller the chance for a second remission, if that is even still possible. The switch to lantus is a desperation attempt at giving him the best possible chance. I had wanted to go with the bovine shorter acting insulin, but the line from my current vet (whom I trust) was "lantus is possibly 'best in class' for feline insulin". It certainly has an enviable record for getting a first remission in a newly diagnosed diabetic feline. Manxcat is testimony to that. I never thought he'd get there, looking at his spreadsheet.
 
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I think you should be encouraged that he looks really good for a week on Lantus. It doesn't work to beat high numbers down and there is no way to rush things. The Tight Reg Protocol is considered a very aggressive approach to managing feline diabetes - some vets disapprove of it because it has dose adjustments happening as quickly as every 3rd day and the cat's blood sugar is being pushed down into normal numbers, just above hypo range. I'd encourage you to give the TR protocol a try and not be more aggressive than it already is, just for the safety of Mr. Sluggo. There is no need to be more aggressive than it already is in order to get control of Mr. Sluggo's blood sugar. While you are keeping his blood sugar in normal range, you are giving his pancreas an opportunity to heal, and that takes as long as it takes. When that happens, then he may work off of insulin and go into remission again.

Do you know what brought him out of remission? You mentioned the oral abscess - was that the reason and has that been addressed? If there is any other physical issue going on, ie, if he has dental issues, pancreatitis or thyroid problems, it would need to be addressed in order for him to go into a solid remission again. We have seen other cats with rodent ulcers and at least one person noted that her cat's BGs went up whenever there was an outbreak of the skin ulcers. Have you seen a connection between outbreaks and higher blood sugar?

We have 4 cats on OTJ trials (2 week off of insulin trial) right now - two that are newly diagnosed and 2 that are long-term diabetics (more than 1 year.) All of them have followed Tight Reg.

When you say you'll "watch him a bit more closely" do you mean test more often? Because visible symptoms of a hypo mean the cat is in serious trouble. Testing is the only way you know that a cat is getting near that range. We encourage people to switch to testing every 30 minutes or so if the numbers suggest that the cat might go under 50 (human glucometer).

I also wanted to give you the information about being regulated. Mr. Sluggo is already in the well regulated category. From the "New to the Group?" sticky:

Q6.1. What is regulation?

A6.1. There are different definitions of regulation. As hometesting becomes more common, we've been getting a better understanding of what cats and their humans might be capable of. Janet & Fitzgerald propose the following "regulation continuum":
  • Not treated [blood glucose typically above 300 mg/dl (16.7 mmol/L), poor clinical signs]
  • Treated but not regulated [often above 300 (16.7) and rarely near 100 (5.6), poor clinical signs]
  • Regulated [generally below 300 (16.7) with glucose nadir near 100 (5.6), good clinical signs, no hypoglycemia]
  • Well regulated [generally below 200-250 (11.1-13.9) and often near 100 (5.6), no hypoglycemia]
  • Tightly regulated [generally below 150 (8.3) and usually in the 60-120 (3.3-6.7) range, no hypoglycemia, still receiving insulin]
  • Normalized [60-120 (3.3-6.7) except perhaps directly after meals -- usually not receiving insulin]
There may also be an extra category of "mostly above 300 (16.7) but with good clinical signs" which occurs with some cats who are getting insulin. We don't know why it happens, but such a cat probably should not be considered to be regulated. On the other end of the spectrum, it is possible for a cat who is not getting insulin to have blood glucose as low as 40 mg/dl (2.2 mmol/L) on a home glucometer. If you have a non-diabetic cat, try testing her with the same meter to get a safe comparison figure.
Hope some of this is helpful to you.
 
Sluggo's initial diagnosis of diabetes (and probable acute pancreatitis, though there wasn't a test for that at the vet's office & none was done at the time) came in the aftermath of a new vet at the local practice (since "fired by me") who gave an intensive course of weekly depot medrol shots for his rodent ulcer. He became totally anorexic, started puking and when I got him to the vet, if memory serves his BG was in the 530's. A month of hell followed with an implanted feeding tube with pureed food through it and the mission I took on personally to get him in remission using the Hodgkin's TR protocol using prozinc. Despite the regular "check-ups" where I was repeatedly encouraged to euthanize, he survived and got into remission. "Mission Accomplished". The tagline to the tawdry story is his rodent ulcer completely disappeared when I took away all his toys. Yes, he loved them, but that's too bad. Tough love.

In the interregnum while he was in remission he was diagnosed with some sort of small cell lymphoma/ibd overlap (path suggestive of lymphoma clonality negative, got full course of lomustine WITHOUT depo-medrol which didn't help and only improved when given low dose flagyl, repeat exp. lap on flagyl, moderate fibrosis, otherwise essentially normal bowel).

Then he got anorexic again (mid-march). I thought perhaps stomatitis from his maintenance chemo with lomustine, but pushing on a tooth with my coffee stirrer elicited pain, so lousy local vet said "abscessed teeth", sent him out on antibiotics for a week with no instructions for follow-up (they never even took his temperature when they saw him). Tried calling them when I noticed BG: 330 in the morning and treating with prozinc 3.5 units was like shooting water. Vet didn't call me back for 7 hours (basically had to just shoot insulin & go to work, arranging for a sitter to look in on him mid-day). Vet said she couldn't get him in that day or the next, so fired that vet & took him to a better one (I think) in Mcallen, who understood the urgency of getting a cat formerly in remission taken care of with respect to dental issues, took him in that day & got him to surgery following morn.

That takes us up to two months ago & my struggle to get him under control. He was in remission for two years. I tried prozinc TR again (as before) and after 7 weeks, with things moving the wrong direction (look at my SS with commentary), decided I needed another idea. The good vet who did his surgery suggested lantus, and here I am. I am a physician, self-prescribed the lantus for my cat (surprised pharmacy took it but they did, the good vet is 40 miles away).

When I say "look at him more closely" what I mean is q3hour blood glucoses at least for the next few cycles as I've started doing. Restocked with another 100 test strips from amazon this afternoon for the battle.
 
That is my fervent hope & prayer. I'm doing everything I can (even learning a different insulin with different pharmacokinetics) to make it happen. Time for his next check/feed/shoot.
 
PMPS: 143 (+23 from the time of the shot that precipitated last night's "festivities").
 
Sluggo was pretty well-regulated before this and on low carb moist, zero carb kibble ONLY.

I have to think when that's been done for a period of time it makes a difference in "bounce" behavior.

You certainly don't see Somogyi effect in a cat/human like that. That's exclusively the domain of the poorly regulated.

Might be an interesting study in that!!
 
You could very well be right - I know Rosa stopped bouncing once she was exclusively in the blue and green zones for numbers. I'd imagine that even a number all the way down in the 30s will have less bounce potential for a cat who's regularly between 50 and 100 for hours at a time.
 
It has to do with how long a cat has been in blood sugar ranges above normal. Their bodies will accept high numbers as normal fairly quickly, even in just a matter of days, and that's one of the factors that causes bouncing. If a cat's body has "forgotten" that 50-120 is normal, then their body will perceive it as being a hypo when they get lower than they've become used to. If the cat's been diabetic a while before it gets diagnosed, they might be used to 400's, and even getting to 200 can cause a bounce. The longer they spend in normal numbers, the more the bouncing usually (not always) lessens until it stops. On a cat that's almost done bouncing, the peak of the bounce might be 125.

A second cause for bouncing is if the blood sugar drops too quickly. Some cats will just plummet - just depends on the cat. If a cat's blood sugar drops faster than about 50 points per hour, that's also very likely to cause a bounce, also regardless of the range of blood sugar. Most cats that drop fast are dropping from a higher range. The lower the preshot is, the less likely there will be any plummeting after that - at least that's what I've seen.

Some cats keep up the bouncing and can even go off of insulin (OTJ) while still bouncing. It's not ideal because the goal is to keep the blood sugar in normal numbers so the pancreas can heal, and bouncing can reduce the amount of time in normal numbers. Nevertheless, we have had cats bounce all the way to OTJ.

This is a post "Where Can I Find?" that you may want to bookmark - it's basically an index to find things on this particular board, and the second half has links to interesting past posts. Look there for one on Somogyi.
 
You could very well be right - I know Rosa stopped bouncing once she was exclusively in the blue and green zones for numbers. I'd imagine that even a number all the way down in the 30s will have less bounce potential for a cat who's regularly between 50 and 100 for hours at a time.

I would certainly have expected Sluggo to "bounce" from numbers like that, particularly since as far as I can tell that's a very abnormal number for him (though I was closely monitoring without intervening in a prolonged period in the mid-50's a few days before). It's possible that whatever homeostatic mechanisms cats have for dealing with a hypo get screwed up when their blood glucose regulation is chronically screwed up, and restoring the sugars they're "seeing" by insulin or whatever helps normalize their homeostatic reaction to a severe hypoglycemia as well. A bounce is basically an "overreaction" in a protective mechanism that becomes maladaptive. But a study with a sample size of one doesn't mean very much.
 
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