Morky BG Curve 9/24 *Canninsulin*

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moof86

moof86

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Morky was at 25.7 (462.6) this morning preshot and before food. Gave him one unit of insulin and just tested now 2 hours later and he's gone to 23.4 (421.2) and I just gave another 1 unit dose of insulin to him. Not sure if that was such a good idea, but he's still quite high and he would normally be getting double this, so going to test again in another 2 hours.

Just wanting to get another set of eyes on this, even if for reassurance!

Cheers!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23

I would suggest you also post this thread in the Insulin Support Groups under Vesulin / Canusulin/ Humulin N. Caregivers over there may be more experienced with Canusulin dosing question.

At this BG level, I would also check Morky's keytone. Do you have keytone strips or Precision Xtra keyton meter?
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23

The strips are on their way, they just haven't arrived just yet. And I've got a AccuChek aviva nano meter, so don't think it does ketones.

I'll move this over there, thanks!

At last check am +4 he was at 16.9 (304.2) and I'm going to test him again in half an hour.
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23

NO, don't move over to the forum. No one uses your insulin and virtually no one posts on that page. You need to stay on Health and get advice here.

We knew you were going to get a high number this am because you skipped the dose last night. I am concerned that you gave two doses this morning when you had the long surf yesterday. To see how it shakes out, you will need to do testing today - every couple of hours to make sure he doesn't crash.
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23

Been testing every two hours with him and he's still a wee bit high, but he's been maintaining. The numbers are as follows:

1 unit given at 6am

amps 25.7

+2: 23.4 (421.2) 1 unit given here
+4: 16.9 (304.2)
+6 12.2 (219.6)
+8 13.6 (244.8)

And that's us up to date at the moment! No sign of a crash, and he's been holding slightly high, but steady. Thank you so much Sue for keeping an eye on me, it really does mean a lot and it's really helpful to get going. Just to have a second set of eyes and to keep me on the straight and narrow is lovely. I've copied his spreadsheet into my signature, just so ya know.

Lol, kinda noticed tumbleweeds round the canninsulin forum. I might be able to switch over at some point, but it's got to be shown the canninsulin isn't doing it's job properly. But with a vet that's happy for me to test (yay!) in a bit of time should be able to go back to her and report my findings.

All the very best!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23

I don't know how to interpret your numbers with the booster dose. There are several possibilities. He could be bouncing from a low number yesterday during that long surf. He could need less than 4 units but more than 2.

How about going back to your original post and editing the subject line to include Canninsulin? It's busier here on Saturday and maybe a previous Canninsulin user can give some advice. (I don't know of anyone using it now but we may have some people in Europe who are.)
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23 *Canninsulin*

Definitely panicked there and of course the time difference not many folks awake just yet. I think I might stay up tonight with him and test throughout the night to get numbers that aren't quite as messed up. Probably be reporting in after his pmps to get advice before I go on ahead and shoot.

Thanks again, really, you have been amazing for guiding me through this, sorry about screwing up the numbers a wee bit :oops: Panicked!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23 *Canninsulin*

No worries. It is very scary in the beginning when you aren't sure how he will react. And you got a strange reaction yesterday with the long surf and low numbers.

You could get the same reaction today, with a long surf continuing down, so I think your idea of staying up and testing is good. Do not give a pm dose if he is going down, not up and if he is around 200. (there is a 20% variance with any meter so your +6 and +8 number are within that variance and can be seen as a surf, not a move up.)

Maybe we can consider your booster dose just a 2 unit since it was so soon after your initial one unit. In that case, maybe this will be a normal cycle with him headed clearly back up at 12. Hope so!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23 *Canninsulin*

Fingers crossed! It'll be a long night, but it'll make next week while I'm away at work a lot simpler just to know, and good chance to clean up around the place! And between tonight and tomorrow during the day, I should have a full 24 hour curve. He's due for another poke here in 15 minutes or so, lol and I'm sure I'll pop back with my report!

Just noticed there you're from Colorado Springs, I'm from Parker originally, love brought me over to Belfast about 5 years ago :)
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23 *Canninsulin*

Imagine that was a real in change of scenery. We went to Dublin a few years ago and saw the "mountains" of Wicklow. :lol:
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23

Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
NO, don't move over to the forum. No one uses your insulin and virtually no one posts on that page. You need to stay on Health and get advice here.

We knew you were going to get a high number this am because you skipped the dose last night. I am concerned that you gave two doses this morning when you had the long surf yesterday. To see how it shakes out, you will need to do testing today - every couple of hours to make sure he doesn't crash.
Click to expand...

Sorry, thought you may get more help over the insulin group.
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23 *Canninsulin*

Normally that would be true, and is, for Lantus, ProZinc and Levemir. But not for Canninsulin and Humulin. Just not many active users.
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23 *Canninsulin*

HA!!! It was a big change, but not gonna lie, I don't miss the snow (except maybe round chrismas time)!! Do miss the rockies, hot summers and of course my family! But it's all good!

Small world :D

And poked the cat, again (he is such a trooper, his poor ears!) and up to 17.8 (320.4) and technically 2 more hours to go for his dinner and next jab, which looks like he's going to be right on schedule.
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/23 *Canninsulin*

SO, it could be a normal curve and just indicate that you need a little more insulin. (Although the low hangtime is fairly unusual for Canninsulin. It usually is gone by 4-6 and the numbers shoot back up. There was no shooting back up here - a pretty normal curve, considering the amps was abnormally high because of the skipped shot last night.) Or it could be rebound from the low numbers yesterday: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound In that case, it might be best not to raise the dose but give him some time to get back to a "normal" curve.

No way to tell - not enough data. (This sugar dance is all about gathering data.)

Maybe someone with Canninsulin experience will come by before you have to shoot.
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/24 *Canninsulin*

okay, so just do the evening ps, and he's at 24.5 (441), so just about where he was ps this morning. I haven't shot insulin yet, just wondering what would be a good dose?

Many thanks again!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/24 *Canninsulin*

Oh shoot. Hoping there would be a Canninsulin user who stopped by with advice. (I have not used Canninsulin although I have helped users.)

Guess you will have to ask your gut. If you are feeling brave and can test a couple times early on in the cycle, you could try 2.5 units. If you are thinking that this is not a normal cycle because of the rebound possibility, you could go with 1.5 - 2 units (and test also.) 4 units was clearly too high because your pmps yesterday was not a shootable number.

What do you think?
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/24 *Canninsulin*

Aw thanks! I'm thinking 2 units seems to be a happy medium. I'm in for the long haul with him tonight, so I'll be able to keep an eye on his numbers and I've got hypo supplies on hand just in case.

Righteo, he's eating away, and I think I'll go for it and see how we get on!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/24 *Canninsulin*

Okay, so we are now 2 hours after his evening shot of 2 units. Morky is currently at 17.9 (322.2), so on his way down.

He's polshed off his dinner (wet food in jelly). He's gone through a fair amount of water and his litter box is saturated and he's being pretty chatty, but I'm not quite up to speed on what he meows for (food, attention, pain, etc). Seems alright in himself and exploring so I shall see what the next two hours bring!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/24 *Canninsulin*

And some pics to break up the monotony of me posting numbers!
 

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Re: Morky Morning 9/24 *Canninsulin*

Thank you :) he's a charmer, loves a good cuddle as well. Sat in that shelter for nearly 2 years, shocking eh?

Things are going very well. I'll be one tired kitty mum tomorrow, but next week will go much better if I have a decent curve to back me up.

Coffee is ready go, roll on the wee hours!
 
Re: Morky Morning 9/24 *Canninsulin*

Just did my +4 pm check, Morky is down to 8.9 (160.2).

Just hoping he doesn't get down too much further for +6 :/
 
He still has some room to go and be safe. (40-50 are the numbers where you start to be concerned) It will be interesting to see if he gets a long surf like he did yesterday or if he starts back up.
 
Now at pm +6 and Morky is up again. 20.2 (363.6) so not thinking he'll be surfing it today. I submit this to the wisdom of the board. Still got another 6 hours to go.

Thoughts?
 
It will take a few days for him to settle into a pattern. New home, new? food, lower dose. I'd stick with 2u for a couple days. From what I read, caninsulin is usually shorter-acting, so this may be a more "typical" response (not that I'm really knowledgable about caninsulin).
 
Darn. I was hoping he would be the unusual Canninsulin kitty and get a longer duration.

Is there any other insulin available? (I am aware in Europe sometimes Canninsulin is the only choice). If you can, I would see if you can get Lantus, Levemir or ProZinc.

If not, you will need to try to finesse the Canninsulin. 4 units was too high. 2 gave a okay nadir with some room to go downward. You want a dose that gives him the best possible numbers for the longest possible time. The trick is that the target can keep moving. What was the perfect dose one day may not be the next.

Is it the middle of the night? If so, I would get some sleep and then get that +12 hour number.

I could see you trying 2.5 and see what you get at nadir. You don't want a dose that gives you a nadir in the 50s and then he shoots way back up. That feels crummy. If you could get a nadir somewhere higher than 50 but lower than 100 and a shootable pre shot number, that would be nice.
 
Yeah, me too Sue!

Gotta prove this one's not working first, then it's a big bunch of paper for the vet to fill out I think. Not impossible, but not handy either. :?

There's definitely some playing to do with Mr Morky, I'll see how he does at 2.5 tomorrow, basically just do what I did today to get an idea of what that looks like.

Bed is a brilliant idea, it's 12:30am so not mega late, but sleep will be good. Thanks again for all your help, it's nice just to bounce ideas back and forth, tomorrow I'll just post the results at pmps, unless there's anything scary!

All the best!
 
Hi there, am in Devon and my cat has just been diagnosed with diabetes and we, too, are on Caninsulin. I posted on the special Caninsulin forum and there are people out there who respond quickly and with loads of experience, so they might be able to help with your numbers. (Thanks Tracy).

Issey's numbers with the Caninsulin start off around 16.8 at 8am, then after 4iu (I know, a high dose), she is still at around 5-6 12 hours later. This is only after 10 days of jabbing (and from three glucose curves done in the vet on first diagnosis - my monitor has yet to arrive, so admittedly have been shooting in the dark for a week, although a jab at the vet at noon on Friday showed a figure of 11, so I guess on track) so am hoping that now we are settling in to a routine the vet might be able to reduce that dose and see if she stays lower on, say, two doses of 2iu a day.
But it's all a really confusing time, isn't it? And until I found this forum I had no idea there were different types of insulin available for cats, or that some are on the "human" types, such as levemir (my friend's daughter is a type 1, so I know a fair bit about diabetes in humans and the regime!).

Good luck - will be interested to see how you are getting on!
 
It is good to know there are responders on the Canninsulin forum. There haven't been for the past few years. I hope you will also come over to Health and find newbies on Canninsulin and post here also.

Catherine, one caution is that if all your curves are done at the vet, that makes it easier for you kitty to go lower at home. Stress raises bg levels and cats are usually stressed at the vet. So their dose based on the vets number can be too high once you get home. It will be good when you get your own meter and can test at home.
 
Thanks Sue,

Yes, I am hoping that lower numbers at home at the start of the day will mean less insulin and - fingers very tightly crossed - dietary control. Her highs in the mornings at the vet are not as horrifically high as I feared (and I am still struggling with the UK/US conversion (couldn't have been an easy number to multiply, could it???) so will see what tomorrow brings. Her 4pm reading at the vet when I took her in today was 4.1
 
Yes, if it had a zero at the end, it would be much easier. 4.1 is a nice low number - especially at the vet. How long after insulin was that?
 
That was 8hrs after the insulin...
Going to pick her up tonight after her day at the vet having her curve done and hopefully I will come home with my glucose monitor! The reason they only recommended one shot (admittedly a big one) for her was that even 11-12 hours later she was still only between 6 and 7 (108 and 126 - I have a calculator to hand...) all three times.
 
If she is getting that long of a duration and making it hard to shoot a second shot in the cycle, it generally means she is getting too much insulin. The goal is 2 shot every 12 hours so that she has a gradual fall, a lowest point in the cycle and then a gradual rise. If you get only one shot daily, there can be hours late in that 24 hour period that she is very high. There is also the change that she is going quite low (lower than that 72 - which could have been influenced upward by stress at the vet) at 5-6 hours after the shot. The 72 could have been headed up....

The sooner you can start testing at home and getting numbers midcycle, the better. Then you can see what is happening during the cycle and figuring out if two shots of less insulin might work better for her.
 
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