Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96 PMPS 134

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Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

Wow! What a lovely number. Be sure to feed small frequent meals today to support that pancreas. Quietly cheering you on!
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

Rats, I had to go to work so I won't be there most of the day. :(

He and his sister get 1.5 oz. (1 can of FF classic split in half) at each meal fed 4 times daily.

At breakfast time he ate a little and I then always mix a little water into his uneaten food and place it up on a dresser - where his hoover sister can't get to it - to keep it from drying out too much. He then free feeds until Noon when I come home to test him and put out lunch. Rinse and repeat.

Typically he eats about half right away and saves the other half for those +2-4 steep dives.

Paws and tails crossed this will be OK.
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

He will be fine. The food he eats should help support the pancreas. You may have a higher number when you get home or you may not. :mrgreen: Either way, things are looking good.
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

Sue and Oliver said:
He will be fine. The food he eats should help support the pancreas. You may have a higher number when you get home or you may not. :mrgreen: Either way, things are looking good.

Phew - thanks Sue! I'll keep y'alls posted.
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

That's a very nice number. Paws crossed and anti jinx in place! Small frequent meals seem to make a difference for Max. We slept in on Saturday (him too), and he went longer between meals and his number was a little higher. So weird cause it seems the opposite of what you'd expect, no food should = lower BG, but not always the case. Also, saw you're note that Harley is not liking the Blue Wilderness. LOL. Max doesn't either. Come on kitties! This is high end gourmet food. My compromise with Max is he now gets a mix, something like 60/40 Fancy Feast/Blue Wilderness. Seems like, as long as there is more Fancy Feast in the mix, he will eat it. Probably splitting hairs at that point, but, since I have the Blue Wilderness, I might as well use it up (and not sure but I seem to get the best #'s when he's had the mix).
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

This does seem a contradiction but is generally accepted that it happens in most cats. When they are on insulin and in diabetic numbers, food will generally bring the bg levels up. When their pancreas is healing, food will bring bg levels down. We generally tell everyone small frequent meals are best - because new diabetics are literally starving and it may be beneficial to a stressed pancreas and not so new diabetics because it will help support the pancreas healing
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

Agreed. Are you thinking you will wait until tonight to give insulin? If so, don't let a high number sway you. You probably need to shave some off your dose from last night (if possible - I know we are talking minute amounts....)

Keep it in perspective. The insulin wore off at +12. And he is in the 140s. That's only 40-60 points above a normal kind of number...without insulin! You are absolutely on the right track - it is just nerve wracking!
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

Sue and Oliver said:
Agreed. Are you thinking you will wait until tonight to give insulin? If so, don't let a high number sway you. You probably need to shave some off your dose from last night (if possible - I know we are talking minute amounts....)

Yes, I will definitely wait until tonight and see what his PMPS is before considering giving insulin again. Would a skinny 0.20 be a good start?

I guess I'm just confused on how the 0.20 dose was acting and how to interpret it. Thanks to Saturday's little experiment we know he bungee jumps starting at +2-3 and then he bounces up around +6 (all my +6 readings are taken before I set out his lunch) and although I haven't gotten too many later numbers, his PMPSs have been either flat from +6, a little higher or a little lower - with the oddball exception of Saturday AM and this morning which were MTN. Seems like he's sipping from Asher's flask. :smile:

Sue and Oliver said:
Keep it in perspective. The insulin wore off at +12. And he is in the 140s. That's only 40-60 points above a normal kind of number...without insulin! You are absolutely on the right track - it is just nerve wracking!

I'm actually happy to see his number wasn't higher than it was. He's come down since a week and a half ago when he wasn't on insulin. Given it's such a short time, I wasn't holding my breath. His pesky liver needs to stay in school. He demands food at any number lower than 110. Saturday morning +3=64 he had me convinced he was in imminent hypo danger by screaming at the top of his lungs, racing to the food cabinet and dumping all the food cans on the floor. Such a drama queen! cat_pet_icon
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

Wow - if he ever gets near a hypo, he will probably grab the can opener! :mrgreen:

I think a skinny 0.2 would be fine. He was getting a nice curve on 0.2 in mid month, just not low enough overall. Maybe the infection is clearing and bringing the numbers down a little more?
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

Sue and Oliver said:
Wow - if he ever gets near a hypo, he will probably grab the can opener! :mrgreen:

So true! The only reason he keeps me around is that I have an opposable thumb and he doesn't. flip_cat

Sue and Oliver said:
I think a skinny 0.2 would be fine. He was getting a nice curve on 0.2 in mid month, just not low enough overall. Maybe the infection is clearing and bringing the numbers down a little more?

To my knowledge he doesn't have an infection. When he was re-dx'd my vet checked him for dental, high blood pressure, kidneys and hyper-t just to make sure there weren't any other issues and he checked out OK. Just the high fructosamine level...

OK, I'll try skinny 0.20 again and hold the dose for a few days to see what happens. Assuming he has a high enough PMPS.
 
Re: Monday 3/1 Harley AMPS 96

You have a lot of kitties to keep track of, it's OK. Harley is leaving the room in disgust because you tried to give him a UTI! :razz:
 
Sue and Oliver said:
Harley and Henry. That's where I goofed. Please apologize profusely to Harley for me.

Says Harley: Sue is forgiven - but Laura is in the doghouse. :lol:

I think we have at least 4 maybe 5 Harley's on the board not to mention a Henry & Gator's GA H. So many to keep track of...
 
shhhhhh WOOHOOOOOOOOOOO shhhhh :mrgreen:

There are varying thoughts on where to set your sights if you continue to see lower #s like this. One thing you can do when you see a # under maybe 150 or 180 and are debating a shot is feed him some, and then test in an hour or two and see if he brings the #s down on his own. If he brings himself back into non-diabetic #s, then he may not need insulin for the time being. Some people raise their no-shoot to 180, mostly if they have a cat who is ranging kind of widely on their own (like maybe goes up to 160 but then brings themself back down to 80, then you might want to raise your no shoot to see what they will do). If they sit in higher #s that just keep creeping up though, then you definitely want to go ahead and give a shot. Since you fed midday and he didn't seem to bring himself lower than 130, conservative shot like you did makes sense to me.

Sorry if you already know all that. Iz juz SOOOOOOO ixcited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Joanna & Bix (GA) said:
shhhhhh WOOHOOOOOOOOOOO shhhhh :mrgreen:

There are varying thoughts on where to set your sights if you continue to see lower #s like this. One thing you can do when you see a # under maybe 150 or 180 and are debating a shot is feed him some, and then test in an hour or two and see if he brings the #s down on his own. If he brings himself back into non-diabetic #s, then he may not need insulin for the time being. Some people raise their no-shoot to 180, mostly if they have a cat who is ranging kind of widely on their own (like maybe goes up to 160 but then brings themself back down to 80, then you might want to raise your no shoot to see what they will do). If they sit in higher #s that just keep creeping up though, then you definitely want to go ahead and give a shot. Since you fed midday and he didn't seem to bring himself lower than 130, conservative shot like you did makes sense to me.

Sorry if you already know all that. Iz juz SOOOOOOO ixcited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for putting this into words Joanna, I'm more of an intuative person and act on my gut instinct which is something like this, but I can't put it into words! I value your advice. Now I just have to pick my new no-shoot number.

+2.5=85!

Very nice, except Harley's acting like he's in mild hypo. Restless, drinking water like crazy and demanding food. So far I've given him 2 large chunks of PureBites Chicken treat to curb his appetite. But it's like watching an addict go through the DT's.

Do I let him go through it and train his liver or give him a little low-carb to help ease the pain?

Poor baby he hates it when I give him his shot +2-4
 
That is getting a little low a little earlier than we might like. Yes, I would feed him a little bit of low carb and see if it comes up. It is a real balancing act between letting him get into the 50s at nadir and getting too low. But you know what to do; you're ready.
 
Phew, thanks for the paw holding Sue! Yeah it'd be nice if his body could learn that these are good numbers, healthy numbers. Guess I'll be up for awhile doing an inpromptu curve. ~O)
 
+6=113

It was a nice moonlight surf while it lasted. :-D

I'm reminded of something Hope said to Patrick tonight about Sabien's curves. It applies to Harley too: "She drops too fast...you'd think she was on Humulin N...fast acting, short duration."

'Night all. I-)
 
One difference is that he stays in those nice numbers for a few hours. With the harsher insulins, he would reach nadir and immediately head back up.

You are doing so well with such tiny doses, but I know it is a challenge.

One thing I am interested in is whether he goes up or down in numbers after feeding. If he goes down, you could try Joanna's idea of feeding to bring the number down rather than insulin. If you have a chance, test before feeding and then test 30 minutes or so after feeding and see what happened with the number.
 
Sue and Oliver said:
One difference is that he stays in those nice numbers for a few hours. With the harsher insulins, he would reach nadir and immediately head back up.

True that, surfs up dude. I worry that if I hadn't intervened with a little food if he'd go down and then boomerang up with liver rebound. That just teaches his body the wrong message.

Sue and Oliver said:
You are doing so well with such tiny doses, but I know it is a challenge.

One thing I am interested in is whether he goes up or down in numbers after feeding. If he goes down, you could try Joanna's idea of feeding to bring the number down rather than insulin. If you have a chance, test before feeding and then test 30 minutes or so after feeding and see what happened with the number.

OK, I might give that a try tonight. But I need to get more test strips! I'm burning through them like water.

Time to start a new thread. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=37943
 
It would be easier (less stressful) to not give the food as he heads lower during the day and see what happens. It is much more stressful at night. Now if we can just arrange that with Harley's schedule......
 
Sue and Oliver said:
It would be easier (less stressful) to not give the food as he heads lower during the day and see what happens. It is much more stressful at night. Now if we can just arrange that with Harley's schedule......

I may have to re-arrange his social calendar, change shot times, etc. so I'm home during Evil Kenevil's daredevil stunts. :mrgreen:
 
I know this is after the fact, but just my 2c, I would almost always give food if they want it. You don't really know if they are in actual hypo #s or not - if their body is telling them to eat, I would respect that. If it's liver training, they will still get through it - the fact that you said he was acting better once he got up to 78 suggests to me he really did need the food you gave him. When I have seen liver training it looked to me like something like a few hours in lower blue #s, followed by a black # at the end of the cycle. And then once through liver training, I would see the same blue #s, and then at the end of the cycle something like a yellow or higher blue, rather than a black #. If Harley has already spent a fair amount of time in blues (I don't have his SS open but that's my recollection) and you don't see a lot of reds & blacks, I doubt he is in liver training.

My motto: feed (LC unless in crisis) and ask questions later! With meter variation too, you just don't know what the exact # is, could be lower than as tested. I think that's why we say don't panic at something like a 50 *if your cat is acting fine*, but if you ever see potential hypo symptoms and you are in mid green #s, the symptoms trump the #s.

I think sometimes we all get so fixated on "perfect #s" and not losing ground and all that, that we lose some perspective. I would hate to see someone's cat hypo b/c they felt like they shouldn't give food at a 50 b/c they've been told that's a good #.

Ok, off my soap box. :-D You did good! I'm assuming your lowering your dose, will have to go look at your SS & new posts!
 
p.s. do you have a civvie you can test for a reference point with your meter? could be your meter doesn't run as low as some...

Also, I'm not sure if I made this clear and I don't actually know the answer, but I've never thought of liver training as something where they would actually act hungry and be physically uncomfortable at lower #s. I could be wrong, but I thought LT was more behind the scenes, and the "I'm starving!" act was true low #s or steep drop, in which case they would definitely be uncomfortable and at potential hypo risk. Interesting question, I had never actually thought about that before.
 
Hi Joanna, Thanks for both your replies. You've given me some things to think about.

Not exactly in order, but my meter is a Relion Micro and I do have a civvie, Princess, I could test. She's a mostly feral tiger striped rescue kitty who it took me about 4 years after I adopted her before she would even let me touch her. Even now she will only let me touch her on her terms. Kind of like a living breathing statue. I'm slowly working on rubbing her ears, bribing her with treats, etc. I'd like to test her but she's not ready yet. For the meter, I did run side by side comparison tests with the Freedom lite for a little while and usually, not always, the Relion ran lower than the FS which is why I ended up using it as my primary meter. Guess it's wishful thinking but I thought I ran a better chance of staying above hypo territory with the Relion. So the moral of the story is, the numbers are great but know your cat and trust him. I'm lucky my boy is so expressive!

I've been reading all the PZI sticky threads, trying to learn about liver training (the definition is what it is is simple enough) but how to recognize is more elusive. You're right, Harley is in mostly blues with the occasional jump into yellow early in his career, so if the only way liver training can be detected is bounces in the numbers, then I guess he's not going through it. When he goes into the 80s he just looks for his leftover food so he can eat. In the 70s and especially the 60s he's either breaking the door down for food or lethargic. Either the meter is off or he's really sensitive to low BG.

People say ECID, but it really is true.
 
A lot of people use the Micro, so it seems like it is probably in line with what we are used to. Maybe you are right and he is extra sensitive, ECID. At least he is doing well and is in decent #s overall, YAY!!! You might find something useful in the other SSs too in Recent Remissions. Everyone's story is a little different, and his #s are different than many, so you might get ideas. Even though of course it is nice to have decent #s, I find dosing harder when they are so steady. Zooming is a pain, but it gives you some #s to throw the insulin against - when it's just blues & no zooms, somehow I have found that harder to find the right dose.
 
Follow-up: I was able to test Princess my civvie today (she'll do anything for freeze-dried chicken treats) with the ReliOn Micro and her BG was 43. This was 2 hours after eating I think.

I also tested myself with the ReliOn Micro and one strip from two different batches of Freestyle Freedom lite strips:

Freestyle Strip1: 95
Freestyle Strip2: 93
ReliOn Micro: 92

Not much variance there.
 
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