Missed & gave fur shot...can I give him a little shot?

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MauiGuppy

MauiGuppy

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It's been hard getting a tent fold on Junior lately because he's lost so much weight. Last night I missed and gave him a fur shot, succeeded in giving him his 5 units at 6am this morning, but missed again 6pm tonight.

I know the mantra -- better high for long than too low for a minute, but I feel so terribly guilty! He did so good yesterday but now has been over 500. Despite being 500, he seems normal. Eyes are clear, appetite good, sleepy but not lethargic.

What do you guys think? Can I give him a couple of units to tie him over till the morning? Maybe 2 units around minute?

Thanks in advance for all your help! Wish I found you guys when he was first diagnosed -- would've saved me alot of stress and tears.

Bonnie
 
hi there

I would not give another shot.
it's possible "some" insulin went in if you missed.
never give a re-shot if you think you gave a furshot.
 
Bonnie,

I'm sorry I don't know Junior's back story, but is there an underlying health issue that has him on 5u of Lantus b.i.d? That seems like an awful lot of insulin so not sure how to handle that one on a fur shot.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
 
Wow, thank you guys! You all are quick! I also didn't think my vet would email me back so quick too! He said that it would be ok to give him 3 units tonight and then resume 5 tomorrow.

@MommaOfMuse, thanks for asking the question so I updated my spreadsheet to be a bit more clear. We started treatment at 2 units on 2/21 and didn't increase it until 3/17. We've been taking it slow, about 1-2 weeks between each unit increase.

I don't know why Junior needs so much juice. Last week even the vet said there may be an underlying health issue that we still don't know about, even though we've already done alot of tests (found hyperthyroidism, early cardiomyopathy, ruled out cancer). I don't know if I can handle trying to learn about another disease!

Again, thank you for this fantastic website. The support here seems so open and friendly. Really wish I found you guys sooner when I was all overwhelmed! Could've also saved money on getting a normal diabetic meter than having my Alphatrak!

Bonnie
 
Hi Bonnie!

I'm looking at your spreadsheet and it's very possible that Junior's dose is too high. He was started out on a high dose and and then it was raised by 1u increments too quickly. Lantus works slowly, and you need to hold a dose for at least 2 or 3 days to see what kind of effect it's having on his BG, and dose increases should be .25u-.5u at most. The effects of too much insulin looks very much like too little insulin. When you raise the dose this quickly and by such a large amount, you almost guarantee missing Junior's correct dose.

But the other thing I see is that you're not testing daily. Getting daily numbers is the only way to judge what his insulin needs are and that he's not going hypo on such a large dose, and also how the dose is affecting his Blood Glucose. I would highly recommend testing every day and getting at least his AMPS, PMPS, and a +4 and +6 in one of the cycles. Of course, any tests you can do in addition to those would be even more helpful.

Here is the dosing protocol for Lantus that we use here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1581. You might want to consider printing this out for your vet and starting Junior over with a dose of 1.5u. I'm worried that you might not be able to regulate him if you've missed his correct dose. There are a few cats that are resistant to insulin, but more often than not they are on too high a dose. Most cats only need 1u-2u of Lantus.

Also, are you feeding a canned or dry diet? The other common problem people have with regulating their cats are that they are feeding them a dry diet that is raising their Blood Glucose. If he's on 5u of Lantus and hasn't had a hypo incident yet, then my guess is that he's probably eating dry food?

Good luck! Please post back and let us know how you're doing!
 
Julia,

Thank you for the pointer. I'm still trying to absorb everything without my head spinning so I appreciate you breaking it down for me!

You're right -- Junior's on a dry diet (EVO turkey and chicken). He's not fond of canned and struggles to eat a can a day. I'll put 1/8 of a can in a bowl, put hot water to make it more aromatic. He'll drink the broth and nibble on the actual food and then walk away. I have to spoon feed him in order for him to finish 1/8 of a can.

He's so bony at 14 lbs and I'm afraid he'll get worse if I push can. With dry, at least he's eating. Any suggestions?

My vet said that we just need to test once a week but I'll test him more frequently -- seeing the numbers won't hurt.

For the rest of the week, I'll start making the food and testing changes but will keep him on 5 units until I make my weekly call to the vet. I'm not sure what to believe -- Junior does seem more like himself now, not the diabetic zombie that he was but still pretty thirsty. I also see alot of spreadsheets with happy cats getting 1-2 units. This is so confusing.

Julia, thank you so much for your help! Will definitely be talking to my vet about this.

Bonnie
 
If he's a picky eater, it's possible you just need to experiment and try some different types of canned food until you find some he likes. Have you tried EVO canned 95% venison? It's high in calories so it's great for weight gain and even my picky cat didn't turn her nose up at the venison. Merrick's Cowboy Cookout, and Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit Formula also were favorites of my picky cat, and both are highly palatable. If Junior is partial to fishy foods, BFF is highly palatable (my cat had stomach cancer and she still ate the BFF until the end): http://www.bestfriendsfoods.com/aboutfood.html. You don't want to feed too much fish, but if he loves it like my cat did you can mix it in with another food that he kind of likes.

Are there any people foods he loves? Tuna, chicken, turkey? If so, you can try mixing some in with his wet food to get him used to it. Do you free feed? Getting Junior used to scheduled feedings with his dry food is an important first step to transitioning to canned. Try giving controlled portions of dry food 2-3 times a day, and then slowly replacing some of that food with canned food.

Here are some good tips for transitioning cats that only want to eat dry food to canned recommended by Lisa A. Pierson, DVM: http://www.catinfo.org/#Transitioning_Dry_Food_Addicts_to_Canned_Food_

This is very important though! Mostly likely the only thing keeping your cat from overdosing on the extremely high dose of insulin is the dry food. You must lower the insulin dose before you make a diet change, because switching from dry food to canned will cause Junior's insulin needs to reduce dramatically (many cats see a 100-200 point drop). Daily testing is absolutely necessary for determining your cats insulin needs. I know it sounds crazy that I'm asking you to take the advice of people on the internet over your vet, but hundreds of cats have been brought to remission through this site, including my own.

I know it all seems so overwhelming at first. There is so much information and you are left with the hard decisions on how you should treat your cat. But in the end it's your cat, and it's ok to disagree with your vet, just like you would disagree with a doctor about your own treatment if you felt something was wrong.

Here is some information to give to your vet to help get them up to date with Lantus dosing protocols: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19539509

http://felinediabetes.com/Roomp_Rand_2008 dosing_testing protocol.pdf

http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6importantfactors.htm

There's a world of support and advice here whenever you need it. Also check out the Lantus user forum, if you need more advice on Junior's dose, or if you want to take a look at other spreadsheets to get a feel for how Lantus dosing is usually done. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=9
 
Julia,

Thank you for all your help and advice! His AMPS today was 349. I fed him 1/4 can of Wellness chicken & lobster and his +6 is 160. Was all excited until I read your warning. Doh! Then I scrambled over to the kitchen and shoveled some dry food into his tummy.

I'll definitely check out the links and visit the other forum groups. I know my vet genuinely cares about Junior and I think he'll be open to deepening his knowledge of diabetes through this forum.

Thanks again and happy Easter!
Bonnie
 
MauiGuppy said:
I fed him 1/4 can of Wellness chicken & lobster and his +6 is 160.
Click to expand...

So he will eat wet food! It's just a matter of finding what he likes. This is very good! :-D Have you tried the Wellness Chicken or Turkey flavors? Their carb content is in the range of where a diabetic cat should be (less than 10% carbs) and they are high in calories to promote weight gain. So is the Wellness Kitten formula. The Chicken & Lobster is a little high in carbs, but still way better than any dry food you are feeding.

Take a look at the cat food nutrition charts for the carb content. You're looking for foods under 10% carbs: http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm

I would start to slowly reduce the amount of dry food and increase the amount of wet food, while lowering the insulin dose at the same time. It's very important that you test multiple times a day...you don't know how quickly Junior's need for insulin will decrease as you transition the dry food out.

Good luck and please post back and let us know how Junior is responding! It's wonderful to have a vet who will work *with* you instead of insisting you do what they tell you. I'm wary of any vet who thinks they know everything.
 
I'm having a similar problem with the loss of weight, how's Junior doing? cat(2)_steam

MauiGuppy said:
It's been hard getting a tent fold on Junior lately because he's lost so much weight. Last night I missed and gave him a fur shot, succeeded in giving him his 5 units at 6am this morning, but missed again 6pm tonight.

I know the mantra -- better high for long than too low for a minute, but I feel so terribly guilty! He did so good yesterday but now has been over 500. Despite being 500, he seems normal. Eyes are clear, appetite good, sleepy but not lethargic.

What do you guys think? Can I give him a couple of units to tie him over till the morning? Maybe 2 units around minute?

Thanks in advance for all your help! Wish I found you guys when he was first diagnosed -- would've saved me alot of stress and tears.
klonopin side effects​

Bonnie
Click to expand...
 
Anne,
Hard time as in having difficulty shooting due to weight loss and not being able to tent his fur?
How much did kitty weigh, and where is the weight now?

Carl
 
Oh, yeah, I noticed it was "old", but saw Anne's question from today and figured I ask for clarification on the problem she's having.
Great news with Junior!!!

Carl
 
haha - i wondered why bonnie was posting over here and thought - hmmm, she should know the answer to that question by now! then i saw the date! too funny.

anne, maybe if you told us more about what's going on with your kitty, someone could help you specifically. it might make more sense to start a new post since this one is so old. the good news is that junior is doing super! hopefully we can help you get your kitty back healthy as well.
 
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