Misdiagnosis? btw i'm from the UK

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Marie McMeowington

Marie McMeowington

Member Since 2013
I took my cat to the vet the other day as she was drinking a lot and seemed restless, she is also over weight. they said she had a high glucose reading, but weren't sure if it was because she was nervous. So I'm booked to put her in the "hospital" for 3 days while they do more tests and see if she's diabetic, originally they told me 5 days but I said i can't afford that. and they want to start on insulin.... She seems less restless and happier now, and is drinking a good amount still, but not loads like before, maybe it was just because it was hot and muggy... I'm worried that the vet may be taking me for a ride and I don't want her misdiagnosed and put on loads of insulin and she is really nervous so putting her there for a few days is really traumatizing for her. is it possible for them to be misdiagnosed? she seems alright now, just overweight, we've stopped completely with any table scraps and she's on diet food maybe that's enough over time..do you think i should just take her in anyway ?

i must sound irresponsible about possibly not taking her but the reason i think she could be misdiagnosed is because shes so nervous she took 6 months for me to be able to touch her, (she was a confused stray who turned up hungry, sleeping in our shed 5 years ago) and they said maybe she had a high reading because she was nervous in the vets, so leaving her there for three days will let her calm down and get used to the place while they test her again... but she is such a nervous thing she would never be calm in those three days, even in a month! the nervousness might effect the readings and then they start pumping her full of insulin.

She's not a bag of nerves at home anymore, she is stuck to us like glue and a purring on the sofa all day napping kind of cat... just really really scared of other people/new environments

she is quite old, not stone old, but over 10, and she's fat. it's been really muggy here, which could explain the drinking. and she is a nervous wreck which could explain the high reading... it's a different unit of measurement out here, she read at 28, and normal is between 3 and 11?, and a high reading for a nervous cat would be about 14 they said... so she was very high... but she seems ok right now..even calmed down with the drinking. it seems weird that they couldn't of done the more accurate fructosamine test that checks the average levels from the last few weeks, which i am now bringing her back in for..i'm wondering what i spent 150 quid on, if they were supposed to figure this out the first time. and they've suggested to leave her in for 5 days to get used to the environment for a more accurate result, but reduced it to 3 in the end cause it was a fortune we didn't have, not even on creditcards

we have a plan of action though, just not sure if it's the right one..any opinions from people with experience with cat diabetes would help. we've changed to low carbohydrate food, ordered these ketone testing strips and a blood glucose tester, and going to see what happens the next week, if she reads high at home where she's relaxed, i will take her to a different vet and start the insulin if they want. going by suggestions from different cat forums and websites i've read. i just hope i'm not making her sick and that a week or two won't completely screw her up, but it's better than a misdiagnosis.

also was wondering what foods are best in the UK. I can get fancy feast here, and right now she's eating the "simply" grilled whiskas. She WAS eating hills science plan dry food that the vet recommended a year ago, but I've read that's very high in carbs so stopped it yesterday.
 
28 mmol/L ? was her reading...at the vets.. i don't know what this UK measurement means as most sites are written in the other unit of measurements in the hundreds... is this really so high, even if she was nervous, that i should just take her straight in for treatment this tuesday?
 
Hi - I haven't read everything you posted, in order to give you some basic information quickly.

To get the US conversion you multiply your number by 18 so 28*18=504 and yes that is quite high.

Vet stress and other factors can contribute to a high BG number.

Unless your cat has ketones is in DKA there is no need to keep the cat at the vet for 3 days or even 5 days of testing. This will only cost you lost of money and not necessarily give you any accurate information.

The best test to determine if a cat is diabetic, is by a fructosamine test - this is a blood test that the vet does and it gives you the average BG (blood glucose) level for a 2 week period.

We do have several UK members, please tell us where you are in the UK.

I've got more to say, but I want to read what you wrote, so will be back in a few.
 
Most of the prescription "diet" foods are not very good and tends to cost a lot of money.

In UK, I think the Felix in Jelly foods are lower carbohydrate. Please read http://www.catinfo.org about Feline Nutrition and how to help your cat lose weight.

If you can get a human glucometer, you can learn to test your kitty's Blood sugar at home. Choose a glucometer that:
a. takes a tiny amount of blood
b. has sipping-action strips (aka approved for alternate site testing)
c. has test strips that you can afford to buy.
 
still reading all the new replies..

i'm in London. Leyton, it's East London....I might have repeated things a lot in what i wrote because i typed it quite frantically. It's been about a week since all the blood tests, i have no idea what they checked her for, they said her kidneys were clear, don't know if they checked for ketones then. I'm so worried, i keep going back and forth with myself about taking her in this Tuesday...It will completely break the bank for me, i've exhausted most my credits this last year from other emergencies, but I will pay it rather than her get sick, she is the most important thing to me
 
OK now I read your whole post.

Here is my basic primer on feline diabetes:

There are three key factors to managing diabetes: food/nutrition, home testing and insulin

1) Feline Nutrition: Now, as far as diet - definitely dump the dry food (if you are feeding any) and if the vet recommends purchasing prescription food like DM just say "no thank you". ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and DM food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here is a link to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... http://www.catinfo.org

If you look on the right side of her site, she has a food comparison chart to help you figure out what food you want to get based on the carb %.

You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% is great. (Personally, I stay between 0-6% carbs.)

While on her site, you can read about in-depth info. on nutrition and how to make raw food, etc.

Here is another link that will give more information about food/nutrition

Nutrition/food info

The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.

When our UK members sign on (probably tomorrow), then can give you specifics about food choices available in the UK.

Here is a link you can look at that may help give you food options in the meantime - viewtopic.php?f=28&t=64843




2. Home testing: It is impossible to convey the value of testing your cat's BG (blood glucose) level at home. Some vets will "suggest" this, but most won't even mention it. They will send you home with insulin and an amount to shoot and maybe some instructions about hypoglycemia (blood sugar dropping to a dangerously low level).

Well, the thing is, human diabetics don't EVER give themselves insulin without checking there BG to make sure it is safe to do so, so why shouldn't it be the same for our kitties. Here on FDMB it is. You will notice that the vast majority of people here test their cat's BG at least 2x/day (before giving each shot to make sure the level is safe enough) and periodically at other times to see how the cat is responding to the current dose. We use a human glucometer, test strips and lancets - which are all very readily available and easy to use.

Our kitties get lots of love and treats for "putting up" with this and most of them actually come out to be tested on their own 'cause they want those treats . Here is a collection of great links that "Carolyn and Spot" pulled together about hometesting. See what you think ... it truly is the best way to not only keep Your cat safe but also really get a handle on this disease and help him to live a healthy life with FD (feline diabetes).

Home testing Links

Are you willing to learn how to home test? If you are, then we have plenty of resources to help you.

3. Insulin: There are three insulins that we recommend using for cats - Lantus (glargine), Levimer (determir) or Prozinc.

The problem many in the UK face is that vets will not prescribe one of these insulins, usually Lantus the first time around. Instead they prescribe shorter acting insulins that really don't work well in cats and unless you get a vet that is willing to prescribe Lantus first, you may have to fight with your vet.

I will let the UK peeps address this in more detail for you.

This link is something that you can print and give toth your vet - Page 4 discusses the best insulin options for cats - http://www.felinediabetes.com/AAHADiabe ... elines.pdf


In the meantime, you can read up on Lantus,

Insulin Support Groups

Be sure to read the stickies (starred posts on the top of page)--

STICKY: LANTUS & LEVEMIR - NEW TO THE GROUP? PLEASE READ... viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18139

STICKY: LANTUS & LEVEMIR - TIGHT REGULATION PROTOCOL viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1581

STICKY: LANTUS & LEVEMIR - INFO, PROPER HANDLING, & STORAGE
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151

STICKY: LANTUS & LEVEMIR - SHOOTING & HANDLING LOW NUMBERS viewtopic.php?f=9&t=147

STICKY: LANTUS & LEVEMIR - WHAT IS THE INSULIN DEPOT?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=150

However, one caveat and again this shows how these three things are inter-related:

If you are feeding dry food or even a high carb food, BEFORE removing these foods, please make sure of your insulin dose as it will most likely need to be reduced, so as to avoid a possible hypoglycemic situation due to the removal of the dry/high carb foods that will lower the BG’s and reduce the amount of insulin required. Again, another reason why home testing is important.



You can do this on a budget. Here is a shopping to get started:

1. Glucose Meter *
2. Matching strips
3. Lancets - little sticks to poke the ear to get blood . new members usually start with a larger gauge lancet such as 28g or 29g until the ear learns to bleed. Optional - lancing tool.
4. Neosporin or Polysporin ointment with pain relief to heal the wound (can use generic brand)
5. Mini flashlight (optional) - useful to help see the ear veins in dark cats, and to press against
7. Ketone urine test strips ie ketodiastix - Important to check ketones when blood is high
8. Treats for the cat - like freeze dried chicken, even rotisserie chicken, deli chicken, canned tuna will work
9. Karo syrup/table syrup, honey or any sugar product like jam, jelly, etc. if you dont have it at home - for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast -
10. A couple of cans of fancy feast gravy lovers or other high carb gravy food- for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast


* Do not get any meter with TRU in the name or Freestyle meters with butterfly strips - reason being people have had trouble with these meters and accurate readings for their cats.
 
Hi Marie (hope that is your name) and welcome to the FDMB. What is your kitties name?

I'm Deb and that picture of the tuxie to the right is my sugardude Wink. He is a diet controlled diabetic and does not need insulin right now. Maybe we can get your kitty diet controlled too.

You said you already ordered a blood glucose test meter. Which one are you getting?

You might want to get your kitty used to having her ears rubbed and touched. Do that every time you think of it until you get the meter you have ordered. That is where you would test, on the edge of the ear so get her used to you touching her ears a lot is my suggestion.

I'd hold off on the hospitalization and test at home first. When does your meter come?
 
Hi - I'm Lu-Ann and my guy Grayson was diagnosed about 1.5 years ago.

Don't rush to start the insulin. We did a week with the food change, which you've already begun, so that's great! It took me a little while to get the hang of testing, so don't be surprised if your kitty isn't cooperative at first. Treats will help! Once you get comfortable getting readings, be sure to write them down. You can transfer them into a spreadsheet - there's a template here that you can use to set it up. Then others can look at your numbers and advise you.

Many of our kitties started high like yours. Take a deep breath. You CAN do this, and he will be much more comfortable having you test him at home than the trauma of going to the vet. It freaks my kitties out if they have to go in. And that certainly can increase their BG.

You will have TONS of questions, and we can help you.

When you do go into the vet's office (maybe not this week, but maybe next week), take your numbers. If they conclude that he does need insulin, you may want to request Lantus. One of our other UK people (Ingrid) was able to get that there, but it took a little help. The shorter term insulins didn't work as well, which is probably what they will want to prescribe.

We'll try not to overwhelm you with all sorts of info - but feel free to read all the great materials here, and ask questions as you are inclined.

Good luck - and BREATHE!!!

Lu-Ann
 
Hi Marie

I live in Canada but am from glasgow originally. You are doing all the right things.. A change in food, and a plan to home test is perfect.

When will the testing stuff arrive?

Call the vet and ask if she had ketones, if not i wouldn't take her in for a curve.tell them you will be home testing as you can't afford the curves and she is too stressed or whatever anyway..but make sure they prescribe you insulin.(if you need a prescription..)

guys, do Brits need prescriptions for insulin? And can they get lantus? I got the feeling I remember the vets like to push caninsulin there which isn't good..

Wendy
 
Once you are home testing, the following may be helpful:

Here are some glucose reference ranges used for decision making using glucometers. Human glucometer numbers are given first (mg/dL). Numbers in parentheses are for non-US meters (mmol/L). Numbers in curly braces are estimates for an AlphaTrak.

< 40 mg/dL (2.2 mmol/L) {< 70 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Treat as if HYPO if on insulin
- At nadir (lowest point between shots) in a long term diabetic (more than a year), may earn a reduction.

< 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) {< 80 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- If before nadir, steer with food, ie, give modest amounts of medium carb food to keep from going below 50 (2.8).
- At nadir, often indicates dose reduction is earned.

50 - 130 mg/dL (2.8 - 7.2 mmol/L) {80 - 160 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- On insulin - great control when following a tight regulation protocol.
- Off insulin - normal numbers. (May even go as low as the upper 30s (1.7 mmol/L){60s for an AlphaTrak}; if not on insulin, this can be safe.

> 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- At nadir, indicates a dose increase may be needed when following a tight regulation protocol.

200 mg/dL (11.1 mmol/L) {230 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- no shot level for beginners; may slowly reduce to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {180 mg/dL} for long-acting insulins (Lantus, Levemir, and ProZinc) as data collection shows it is safe

180 - 280 mg/dL (10 - 15.6 mmol/L) {may be 210 - 310 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Any time - The renal threshold (depending on data source and cat's renal function) where glucose spills into the urine.
- Test for ketones, glucose is too high.

>= 280 mg/dL (15.6 mmol/L) {may be >=310 mf/dL for an AlphaTrak}, if for most of the cycle between shots
- Uncontrolled diabetes and thus at risk for diabetic ketoacidosis and hepatic lipidosis
- Follow your insulin protocol for dose adjustments
- Test for ketones; if more than a trace level of ketones, go to vet ASAP.
 
Hi Marie and welcome to the board. I'm one of the few UKers here, from Surrey, and we try to give each other moral support even if there's not a lot we can add to what the very experienced and knowledgeable US members have already said. You've had some brilliant advice here already and you seem to have a good grasp on the basics of FD. Now's the time to be calm and think about it all so you can be sure you're covering all bases.

Yes, 28 is too high a BG reading for mere vet stress, even in a nervous cat. It does sound as if insulin might be needed, but you will get a truer picture of what's going on if you are now feeding a low-carb wet food. Dry food is far too high in carbs for a diabetic cat and could have contributed to those high numbers. Unfortunately vets aren't as clued-up on FD as we would like them to be and persist in saying that a prescription dry food is ideal for diabetics - NO! Almost any wet food IN JELLY will be better, so the Whiskas or Felix pouches should be fine. Changing to a wet food diet should help all round, with BG levels, weight and water consumption.

When you start home testing - don't worry, it might feel strange at first but you will get the hang of it - let us know the results and we will be able to help further.

As is often said on this board, FD is a marathon not a sprint, in other words there is no quick fix (unless you are very lucky) and you may have to work through various permutations to achieve lower BGs, but I can tell that you love your cat and want to do the best for her, so stick with it and come here and ask as many questions as you need. The people on this boats are amazing and will help you every step of the way.

Best of luck!

Diana
 
Hello from Surrey!
And welcome to FDMB. :smile:

My cat, Bertie, has been diabetic for six and a half years. He'd been on Science Plan dry food too - at the recommendation of my vet (sigh... :sad: ).

As others have said, there is no need for your cat to stay at the vets to confirm a diagnosis of diabetes. A fructosamine test should confirm that.

Once the diagnosis is confirmed some vets (including mine) will insist on keeping the cat at the clinic for a day in order to see how effective the initial insulin dosage is in the cat's body. This situation has pros and cons.
Pros: The cat is being monitored while receiving insulin for the first time.
Cons: The results seen at the vets may well not be the results you get at home. There are a number of things that could make the cat's blood glucose levels atypical while at the vets for a day including a) the stress of being at the vets (which could raise blood glucose levels (although in a minority of cases will lower them)), and b) the fact that your cat may well not eat at the vets. So the day will not be a 'typical' day.
It will also cost you money to have your cat at the vets for a day.

Your cat will probably be prescribed Caninsulin initially. It's the only insulin currently made for animals (dogs actually....) in the UK, and vets here have to prescribe an 'animal' medicine before they can prescribe a 'human' one. There are better insulins out there, but that can happen later if necessary. Caninsulin (Vetsulin in the US) is considered one of the more difficult insulins to work with because it has a short duration in cats. However, many UK cats do just fine on Caninsulin and quite a few on this forum have gone into remission on it. 'Remission' means diet-controlled diabetes.

It is recommended here that diabetic cats eat a wet food diet that is low in carbohydrates. There are lots of options in the UK. And I think Hope has given you a link to the list that Juliet (aka Dr Schrodinger here) has put together.

It will be hugely beneficial if you can learn to test your cat's blood glucose at home. It will help you to manage your cat's diabetes, and check that she is receiving the correct dose of insulin. It will help you keep your cat safe from hypoglycemia (dangerously low blood glucose). It will give you a sense of control over the situation like nothing else can. And it will save you a heap of money in vets bills as you'll be able to do all necessary ongoing monitoring at home. Oh, and don't worry, it won't hurt your cat. It may take you a few goes to learn how to do it though.

I understand that you've ordered a blood glucose meter? Can I ask which one you've ordered?

You will get the hang of this. Honestly. And your cat can be happy and healthy as a 'sugarcat'! :-D

And here's a big (((HUG))) for ya, because I expect you're probably finding things a wee bit stressful right now....

Eliz
 
Hi again,

A bit more on the subject of food in the UK...

What you choose to feed will depend on your budget, how many cats you have, and whether you're willing to buy online.

The range of suitable foods in the UK was, until fairly recently, pretty limited. But there has been an explosion of new foods onto the UK market and there is a great choice available now.

In principle, most foods in jelly (not gravy) could be suitable. But watch out for an additive called 'vegetable protein extract' which in some cats can escalate blood glucose levels enormously.

The following foods are just a sample of current popular choices for UK sugarcats (ranging from lowest price to highest price): Butcher's Classic (available from some supermarkets); Bozita (available at some independent pet food stores and also online from Zooplus); Macs and Ropocat (available from the Happy Kitty Company); Catz Finefoods (Zooplus) and Granatapet (Happy Kitty Co); Lily's kichen canned food (currently only from Lily's Kitchen), Grau grain-free (Zooplus); Lily's Kitchen foil trays (many supermarkets and online). Some folks also feed their cats raw food, either ready made or home-made (but the latter needs a bit of learning about).

If you are willing to buy online that will really increase your buying options. But you may find that you need to buy a certain amount at any one time to get free postage.

Eliz
 
Wendy&Tiggy said:
...guys, do Brits need prescriptions for insulin? And can they get lantus? I got the feeling I remember the vets like to push caninsulin there which isn't good..

Wendy
Click to expand...

Yes, Wendy, that's right. Brits do indeed need a prescription for their cat's insulin.

Vets here almost always prescribe Caninsulin first. That's because vets are required to prescribe an 'animal' medicine before being allowed to prescribe a 'human' one. And currently (since the sad demise of an animal protamine zinc insulin a couple of years back) Caninsulin is the only 'animal' insulin available.

Once on Caninsulin though, IF it can be demonstrated that it isn't doing an effective job, then an alternative insulin is allowed to be prescribed under the 'cascade system' (ie, if medicine 'a' doesn't work then it's acceptable to go to medicine 'b' etc (cascading down the list...))

If Caninsulin isn't effective then the one that's next most likely to be prescribed is Hypurin Bovine PZI. Vets prescribe this because many of them have experience of using the old PZI (made for animals), and so this 'feels' familiar to them. Some vets will prescribe Lantus though, and a smaller number will prescribe Levemir.

Incidentally, Hypurin Bovine PZI is proving to be a very effective insulin for cats, and, unusually for a PZI, has an extremely long duration.

Eliz
 
Another welcome from another UK person!

You have loads of info to read from the excellent people on here to get you going, but please don't feel overwhelmed by the amount of reading material. We just want to help.

When you're ready, ave a quick look at the link in my signature. There's a file of UK foods suitable for diabetic cats & where you can buy them.

Good luck with this!

Juliet
 
Dr Schrodinger said:
You have loads of info to read from the excellent people on here to get you going, but please don't feel overwhelmed by the amount of reading material...

Juliet
Click to expand...

Yes, indeed.... I've just had a read back through this thread and there is a LOT of info here.
Don't be put off by our enthusiasm to help ;-) .

You don't need to know or do everything all at once. This is about you and your cat. Take it at your own pace and do as little or as much as you feel able to do at any given time. We are here to support you. :smile:
 
hey thanks for all the advice and info it's been really helpful. I've checked the UK food list and managed to get a ton of Encore catfood, which should have 0 carbs... we only got chicken and prawn because we weren't sure about one of their flavours having cheese in it, and I didn't see that one on the list. I hope she doesn't get bored of the flavours, do you think it's ok to also feed her another 0 carb catfood aswel to change up the flavours? I know it's not good to mix catfood brands, but since it's all organic and plain meat catfood maybe it doesn't matter.

We searched everywhere for the glucometers that were recommended I think from somewhere else on this site that I found, but the only one we could find was that Accu-check one... it's an aviva Nano.. and i read somewhere that accu-checks give inaccurate readings? but i didn't know what else to do seeing as there is nothing else available in about 5 shops i checked, argh. and the ketone pee strips should arrive soon.

Her name is Ninja because she used to sleep in our shed in the garden and i noticed all her pawprints in the snow leading back to the half rotted shed, and found a blanket covered in her fur. she'd and sneak in our old catflap like a shadow, tip our kitchen bins over and disappear, so we started feeding her and she was really scared and mental and starving, but now she's such a house cat, she has access to the garden but she would rather sit inside with us purring. She's so cuddly now. we took her to the vets before to see if she was chipped and she wasn't. Her other name is Miss Penelope Velvet-Paws haha...

She's been soooo quiet suddenly since we've started on this food a couple of days ago, really chilled out and content....for the last few weeks she's been really meowy and restless..so i think she is feeling better..i've also noticed shes not at her water bowl every 15 mins and it's still quite full.

about the glucose test... we couldn't get a good prick for blood, we are supposed to prick it with something else first? what are they called.....i think i might of read it on this thread higher up, I'll go and have a look :P
 
and she hasn't had a crumb of table scraps...i cringe now thinking of all the bits i was giving her...things like bits of my pasta, or mashed potato cause she liked the creamyness of it, but that was carbohydrate city :( ... i was just trying to be nice to her i didn't know it was harming her so much :oops:
 
AccuChek is fine (I have a Nano as a backup meter). It's the "Tru" and "free" meters that have proven to be problematic when used on cats (they're reported to give lower readings than they really are).

You prick with a lancet or a lancet device. You might need to warm the ear up first to get blood and sometimes you might need to poke twice (especially when first starting out). The ears "learn to bleed" over time and it becomes easier to get blood.
 
The prick or poker thingy is called a lancet - it looks like a thumbtack or push pin (not sure what you call it on your side of the pond) ;-) . And you can either use the device that comes with the meter or just free hand it (which is my personal preference).

The accucheck meter should work just fine. I haven't heard anything negative about it. Just be sure to read the instructions and if the strips need to be coded to the meter, remember to do that, otherwise nothing will work correctly.

Now tips for testing:

Warming the ear is the best way to start - you can do this by making your own warming sock -
-Take any sock you have (no holes) add 1/4 cup of regular rice, dried beans or oatmeal (I prefer the oatmeal)
- knot the top of the sock so the stuff doesn't fall out
- place in microwave for 15-30 seconds until warm to touch
- place behind cat's ear for another 30 seconds until ear warms up

- you can keep the sock behind the ear as a buffer for your fingers when poking ;) so you don't poke yourself

Be sure to aim for the area between the vein and edge of the ear (known as the sweet spot)

If you need help seeing the vein, you can always use a flashlight (or you may call it a torch light) to help you. I have a handheld one that I put between my teeth to free up my hands to hold and poke....



You can poke either from the rear of ear to the front or front to back (like you would if putting on earrings). It really depends on what works best for you - (I poke from front to back).


If you free hand - hold the lancet at a 45 degree upward angle and poke that way - not straight on like you would for piercing the ear (or putting in earring).





Regarding the food - you can change brands/flavors if you want - just do it slowly as it can upset a kitty's tummy. As long as Ninja (and love all the names for her and her story) is ok with the different flavors/brands then it shouldn't be an issue to mix it up. My girls have decided that they now only like one flavor (fancy feast beef feast) so it makes the decision of what to serve that much easier. They used to eat the turkey and giblets flavor and decided that sucked and now only eat the beef (and no they don't really like the beef and liver option either)....sigh --- but that's a cat or two for ya......

Well you can still give table scraps - just make sure it's protein and meat such as beef, poultry, fish, etc. no more potatoes or pasta....sorry Ninja....I share my food with my girls....canned tuna (they only like the water from it), rotisserie/baked/fried chicken (only the non-fried and spicy parts they get - closest to the bone), beef, etc... I just make sure that any spices or sauces are not on the pieces they get first.

How else can we help?
 
Marie McMeowington said:
and she hasn't had a crumb of table scraps...i cringe now thinking of all the bits i was giving her...things like bits of my pasta, or mashed potato cause she liked the creamyness of it, but that was carbohydrate city :( ... i was just trying to be nice to her i didn't know it was harming her so much :oops:
Click to expand...

Most of us here were in the same boat as you. You do what you can with the knowledge you have at the time. Most of us had no idea about feline nutrition until starting on this journey with our sugar kitties. It's not easy info to find, especially when the majority of vets are just as clueless as we were. I lay the blame squarely where it belongs: the misinformation given by pet food companies to sell their products. They're in business to make money, sometimes at the expense of our beloved pets.
 
ok, well she loves having her ears rubbed for some reason anyway so it should be do-able... she rests her head in my hands and i rub the top of the insides of her ears with my thumbs and she starts purring away haha, so she won't think anything of this...

she really is being so calm these last two days, she was practically screaming at me last week...as we were giving her such a reduced amount of science plan, diet control dry food.. trying to get the weight off, but she must of not gotten ANY nutrition from that tiny amount of crappy kibble.
 
by feeding her low carb food, removing the dry food she will naturally lose weight if she really is ahem fluffy. Same as with people...so this is a good side effect of feeding low carb wet food.

Sorry but we don't use the other F word in my house :-D
 
there must be thousands of people out there who were doing the same, giving tiny amounts of diet science plan trying to make them lose weight because that's what the vet told them to do..i knew the tiny portions of dry cereal were not satisfying or making her feel good but it''s hard to go against what a vet tells you to do..
 
We've all learned a lot about feline nutrition by being here. My civies (civilians, non-diabetic cats) have benefited as much from this new nutritional data as has my sugardude Wink.

Just be willing to listen and think about what is said and make up your own mind. I think Ninja is helping you to do that by showing you how much better she feels.

You may be interested in the AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats, especially the part about where they talk about why a canned foods are preferred over dry food. On page 218. The whole article is jam packed with information and it's from a vet journal, published in June 2010.
 
When you have time, read through www.catinfo.org - this vet has a lot of information about feline nutrition, antibiotics and other useful information that you never thought you needed to know or to question.

Oh yeah - Maui was a dry food addict before coming here. I fed all kinds of dry food, even very expensive food thinking I was doing right for my cats. It was only after coming here and getting the "introduction" from people here that I learned just how bad the dry food no matter the expense was.

I was also scared like you wouldn't believe and fought the idea of how am I ever going to get Maui to eat canned food - When I did serve it, she wouldn't touch it and now I am being told that I must get rid of the dry. It took weeks of me spoon feeding Maui to get her to understand that this was now her food and dry was no longer available. We had many a messy fest - and then one day, I was holding the spoon and she took a lick, then another, then another and that was the turning point for her.

Once I got her eating canned food, Buster my civvie who ate both wet and dry, then refused to eat canned at all and even went on hunger strikes when I tried to remove the dry from her. I struggled harder to get her to eat than all the mess with Maui. This is what Maui used to look like after I fed her:



I'm so glad that she now loves to eat wet food.
 
Hi Marie, I'm glad to see that you have taken so much on board! This is just a quick WELL DONE from me before I rush out this morning. I'm so glad to hear you sounding calmer and taking action.

Remember, you can ask any question here at all - as you will have read, we have all been in the same boat - so keep coming back, as often as you need to. If you have very specific questions you might want to start a new thread with a new subject header, so everyone can see what you need help with.

Keeps up the good work!

Diana in Surrey
 
Marie McMeowington said:
hey thanks for all the advice and info it's been really helpful. I've checked the UK food list and managed to get a ton of Encore catfood, which should have 0 carbs... we only got chicken and prawn because we weren't sure about one of their flavours having cheese in it, and I didn't see that one on the list. I hope she doesn't get bored of the flavours, do you think it's ok to also feed her another 0 carb catfood aswel to change up the flavours? I know it's not good to mix catfood brands, but since it's all organic and plain meat catfood maybe it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

Marie,

I only listed the PATES because they are the only complete food that Encore makes. The others (tins & pouches) are supplemental & only used for treats. I have only included complete foods on the list.

The flavour you have chosen is labelled as 4% rice, which as you know, is a carb. Personally, I would use it as a treat, and probably only give it to my non-diabetic cat. If you stick to only the flavours of the brands on the list, then you should be fine. \M/

There are so many brands & flavours & inconsistencies that it all gets very confusing :shock: . The bigger brands like Whiskas & Felix (owned by Mars & Nestle) change their formulations regularly without explicitly advising the consumer, so it's worth avoiding them if possible.

To be honest, with my two, I had been ordering high quality cat food from Germany via the internet, but they're so fickle that they're now eating the cheaper stuff from the high street (Lily's Kitchen, Butchers Classic & Natures Menu) with a bit of raw mixed in & the pricier German brands are staying in the cupboard. :roll: Cats eh?

I must say that you're picking this all up very quickly. Nice one. Keep at it, gal!

Juliet
 
I only listed the PATES because they are the only complete food that Encore makes. The others (tins & pouches) are supplemental & only used for treats. I have only included complete foods on the list.

The flavour you have chosen is labelled as 4% rice, which as you know, is a carb. Personally, I would use it as a treat, and probably only give it to my non-diabetic cat. If you stick to only the flavours of the brands on the list, then you should be fine
Click to expand...

ah crap.. I had looked at the list and wrote down the names for my fiancee to buy, but it was quickly written, i had wrote pate on my own list, but maybe i left it out on his list... so what he had come back with I figured was what I had taken straight from that link, but it wasn't then...damn, he bought two crates of it for about 30 quid argh...well she's only eaten it for one and a half days, she can have the Sheba that we still have until tomorrow evening. the encore says 1% rice on them, so hopefully it wasn't too damaging :( there's no additives and it's all organic but yeah i've just noticed it says complementary cat food on them instead of complete. oh well, back to the shops then...maybe i can donate this somewhere, along with all the felix packets i bought first.... :oops:
 
Keep a small amount of the high carb wet and dry, freeze the dry. You never know when you might run into an issue with him not eating and might need to use the dry. And high carb wet (few cans) is useful if he ever drops too low.

Wendy
 
Hi,

Regarding 'complementary food', although this isn't complete you could probably still use this up by feeding it in small quantities, over time, alongside a complete wet food. I think up to 20% of the diet (ie one meal out of five) can be an incomplete food as long as the rest is a good quality complete food.

And as to mixing brands, I do that all the time! I feed a number of different foods in rotation. I can't afford the best quality stuff all the time but like to include it so I use it in rotation with other cheaper foods. (Currently I'm feeding Grau grain-free, Catz Finefoods and Granatapet in rotation with cheaper foods like Macs and Ropocat for example. And like Juliet, I also include a bit of raw food too).

But if a cat has a sensitive tummy it can be helpful to introduce a new food gradually.

How is the home-testing coming along?

(BTW - you're doing a great job!) :smile:

Eliz
 
i feel like i haven't been doing what i can this last week as i've just moved jobs and it was my first week there and i am commuting 3 hrs of my day now... we got the glucose tester but haven't managed to use it properly, so had to order the lances off the internet, which still aren't here...We bought the wrong food as i said above, so she's back on Sheba which is OK but not perfect, we've ordered loads of lilys kitchen food, but again we have to wait for that to arrive....

in the meantime the ketone and glucose pee strips did arrive. and i stuck a folded up plastic shopping bag over the corner of her litter that she pees in, and tried the strips, although the pee wasn't fresh, it may have been in there for up to an hour until i noticed there was a puddle. The ketone part of the strip was fine, didn't change colour.. but the glucose part was just before the high parts.. it said ++Moyen 5. 1/2% around 28mmol (doesn't mean it's exactly 28, the square colours jump from 14mmol to 28mmol to 56 mmol, it doesn't tell you the exact number) ... I don't know how reliable these pee strips are, and if the pee being not fresh changes the result, and I can't do the blood test properly yet, although i will try again tomorrow even without the lances, but if it's reading that high, when she's calm at home, and i've tried (although not perfectly) to change her diet for the better the last week... I'm thinking she needs to go to the vet for insulin.. I can't fix this purely with diet, I'm so worried i've left it this 2 weeks...

I'm so scared to start her on insulin, you all talk about how i can't get the right insulin in the UK, and i'm not home all day... i will have to ask my boyfriend to stay home from work for a week to monitor it all.

the only thing is, she seems much better, she is not drinking like mad at all anymore, doesn't pee much, seems happier, lost a little weight and has a bit of a spring in her step, like jumping on the sofa and over me.. she wouldn't of bothered with that at all before...maybe i should just wait with the vets until i'm able start testing her with the actual glucose tester in her ear? maybe the lances arrive after the weekend, or i will try again without them..

really confused and worried i've left her too long without the vet, i don't know what to do. she seems healthy apart from that pee strip reading
 
Like as the airlines say "put the oxygen mask on yourself before helping others". You need to do whats best for you first.. like your new job.. But meanwhile it sounds like you have ordered some good stuff which is great

Good news on no ketones! Seeing sugar in the pee is expected really since she is diabetic and not on insulin. The numbers will vary depending on how much she drank and when she last peed etc. Essentially though any result other than negative means she was over the renal threshold for some time and so sugar was spilling into her urine. Urine threshold is blood levels of around 15mmol/L

Her blood glucose could be coming down on the new foods which may be why she is feeling better. Try and see if you can get some tests in before worrying about insulin. As long as she doesnt have any ketones in her pee, a few more days of not being on insulin wont harm her.

Key things with the blood tests

1. make sure the ear is really warm
2. put something hard behind the ear to press against like a pill bottle lid
3. try 2 pokes beside each other and/or aim for the vein for now (but be ready with a cotton ball and some pressure for 15 secs or so to stop the bleeding)
4. always a treat after!

Wendy
 
i am almost angry that i have to go to my new job, which i am actually really excited about.. Ninja is more important to me, but if i don't go to work, i won't be able to pay the vet if she needs it...but if i'm working, i can't take her to the vet!! catch 22. i need to win the lottery...

if she get's really ill because of me not having any time for her i will be furious with myself .. i will try the blood test again tomorrow morning, if there are any strips left..i was at work, so my boyfriend has been trying to do the test with no luck as he gets home before me, i haven't had time to try yet as soon as im home it's practically bed time... it's almost 2 in the morning right now, i need to sleep and stop reading about worst case scenarios for the moment. will try tomorrow and post results (if any)
 
Wendy&Tiggy said:
Key things with the blood tests

1. make sure the ear is really warm
2. put something hard behind the ear to press against like a pill bottle lid
3. try 2 pokes beside each other and/or aim for the vein for now (but be ready with a cotton ball and some pressure for 15 secs or so to stop the bleeding)
4. always a treat after!

Wendy
Click to expand...

he wouldn't of had this info when he tried, so maybe i will have better luck with your tips
 
It can be hard to test some cats - some are better bleeders than others.But the ears do learn to bleed (they develop more capillaries to deal with the pokes so they bleed easier over time)

Try not to stress - you are doing the best you can . Maybe print this out for your boyfriend? https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_CPZVKz27fD_6aVbsguadJKvjSrSAkD7flgPPhEag/pub

Dont read the worst case scenarios you will just freak yourself out - keep asking us questions and work with us and we will try and ensure those dont happen. Go have a hot toddy and go to bed ;) we will be here tomorrow.

Wendy
 
Marie, please don't beat yourself up, you're actually doing really well. As we have said, we've all been where you are, realising with some shock that we've been feeding less than optimum food, etc. so don't feel that it's just you!

Try to focus on the positives and how much you've achieved in a short time. Some people take months to get to the stage you're at now, getting supplies all ready to start (and again, it is never the best time to attempt your first home tests. Life is complicated and we all have stuff going on that maks it seem that bit harder to get to grips with the equipment and process). Also, you say Ninja is better in herself, happier and not drinking so much etc - that's a very good sign that the new food is better for her, isn't if?

Home testing can seem a mountain to climb but the key is to take your time and try to be relaxed yourself. Play some soothing music in the background if it helps, or have a glass of wine or cup of tea handy. As others have said, it is important to get the ear warm before attempting to use the lancet device. I used to wet a small piece of cotton wool in hot water, then wring it out - place it behind the ear and hold it there with one hand while using the lancet in the other. Cotton wool is not so bulky as a rice sock etc and I found it much more manageable. But we all have our own ways that we discover as we go along, as you will too.

Keep going!

Diana
 
Marie McMeowington said:
...I'm so scared to start her on insulin, you all talk about how i can't get the right insulin in the UK, and i'm not home all day...
Click to expand...

Hi Marie,

I'm fearing that we have overwhelmed you with information, and that we've caused you to think that this isn't something you are going to be able to do. I'm truly sorry if that's the case. The intention here is to support and empower. And I sincerely apologise if we have got that balance wrong here.

OK... Let me start by saying - YOU ARE DOING A BRILLIANT JOB ALREADY! :RAHCAT

Regarding insulin, you may well find that Caninsulin suits Ninja just fine. Many people in the UK use it, and quite a number of cats have gone into remission (become diet-controlled diabetics) with that insulin. If it turns out that Caninsulin isn't working for Ninja then there are other options available. So please don't worry about this.

Regarding home testing, well, sometimes that just takes time and practice. I was an extremely relucant hometester (totally convinced that my cat couldn't be tested because he was 6.5 kilos of 'attitude'). But I just took my time and learned how to do it. Very few people get a successful test the first time they try.

Most people with diabetic cats do not test at all! But those of us who do test have a huge advantage.
And, if you do learn to hometest, then as to how many tests you do...: You do what you can.

The most important tests to get are those immediately prior to the insulin shot. And if you do nothing else you are still doing way better than the majority of folks who don't test at all.
Any other tests you get will help you to understand how the insulin is working during the cycle. Some folks start insulin on a weekend so they can do some more monitoring initially.

Marie, you are already doing brilliantly. Ninja is blessed in having you as a care-giver. Take your time. There's no rush. You and Ninja will work out a strategy that works for you both. cat_pet_icon

(((Hugs))) to you.

Eliz
 
I'd like to echo what Eliz has just said.

It's a case of one step at a time. Tiny lickle baby steps at that, too.

I was petrified when my Milo was diagnosed, and then he got very sick with diabetic ketoacidosis & we didn't think he'd pull through. Eliz taught me to hometest, but I didn't think I would fit it all around my work (I get up at 6 and don't get home til 7.30 most days), but we did in the end.

It's a real struggle, but the greatest struggle in the fear that you are letting your cat down & the overwhelming guilt that you caused the suffering in the first place and now can't do enough to pull them out of it. Once I shed that & found the mindset that I'm only a puny human being who is trying to do the best they can, it was far less stressful for us all & we took each day one at a time.

Milo spent a few months on Caninsulin before I convinced the vet to prescribe a longer lasting insulin (Hypurin bovine PZI). It was the data from the hometesting that persuaded the vet that it wasn't working in Milo. Once he started on the Hypurin (New Year 2013), he quickly became regulated, started putting weight back on & eventually his pancreas woke up again. He's now put 3kg back on, he's the perfect weight for his epic size & is happily noshing his way through a plate of Catz Finefood lamb & rabbit flavour as I type.

You can do this. She may not even need insulin. She's already feeling better, and that is because of you. Keep going, gal. One step at a time!

Juliet (& Milo, and his loud sister, Lola)
xxx
 
You are helping your cat, even if you have not started her on insulin. You've told us you changed the food to a low carb diet. That is a big help. Many cats see improvement from just that food change. It may not be the only step you need to do, but it's a great first step.

Baby steps, one step at a time, one day at a time.

Remember, it took time for your cat to become diabetic, it will take time for her to be controlled or achieve remission.

How is she doing today? How are the 5 P's (peeing, pooping, playing, purring, preening) and her appetite? Have the size of the pee patches gotten smaller? Is she eating less or still really hungry?

You've started a new job so it will take time to settle into that and get a routine going. How is the new job going?

You've only been here a week, and look at all the changes you have made already! You're doing fine. It will take time, so be patient.
 
well i'm still waiting for the lancets to arrive, tomorrow i hope, as it's sunday today..the vet is not open either, i will go down there regardless of the blood testing tomorrow, and ask about putting her in....i will have to do what they first suggested, having her stay there for about 4 days so they can regulate her, as i will be at work and so will the other half.

she seems ok though, happy, a bounce in her step as she's lost a bit of weight.(i don't know if this is the diabetes making her lose weight, or the diet she was on a couple months ago, and the more recent switch to wet food this week) i've tested again and again with the pee strips though, maybe out of denial and stubborn hope that the square will not turn brown, but it is turning brown everytime, i even went as far as trying it on myself to see if they were accurate, and mine didn't change colour at all......she is not peeing a ton, just about 3-4 times a day? and she's no longer obsessed with the water bowl since about a week. she is purring and happy, i even stretched out the skin around her eyes to check if they are blood shot on the white bits and they are fine...they were blood shot a week ago.

i will take her in to the vets anyway, and tell them ive switched food, (they suggested to give her tiny amounts of dry diet science plan :-x ) i hope they are competent then... i was always happy with them before, but this bit of misinformation really has put me off....but they have a cattery upstairs so one would think they are well informed about cats in general..

the job is great, but all this going on is making it twice as difficult than it should be!
 
shes not super starving. but she's eating her wet food fine. not protesting about it. one tray in morning, and one tray in the evening..
 
and more P's:

she's being playful in her usual lazy way, attacking bits of string while laying down and not running after it haha...

and her poop is smaller and darker, maybe because of the wet food.

she's not peeing giant puddles, but it is very orange. (i noticed it on the plastic bag i stuck in the litter to test the strips on)

and she's washing herself again...i had noticed a week ago when i first took her to the vets when she was drinking alot, that she wasn't really washing herself and her nose was dry. her nose is wet now too....
 
Orange pee? Like it's very concentrated?

You might try adding some more water to her wet food. Not sure if that will help the pee color issue.

Is she dehydrated?

Dehydration checks
Do these 2 checks first, so you can report on them.
Moderate to severe dehydration test:
- does fur at the scruff of the neck stay tented, if pulled up and released?
Mild dehydration or more:
- press a finger onto gums and release; how many seconds before it pinks back up with blood again?
Click to expand...
 
i've checked her skin for elasticity as soon as i saw the pee and it's fine, doubt she will let me at her gums.

her nose is wet though, the urine was less orange the second time she peed today, just in the morning was quite bright ? but i haven't seen her drink any water for awhile, i went and bought her a bottle of evian an hour ago, because i thought maybe she didn't like the taste of the other brand of spring water we had bought..either way, she will be in the vets as soon as they can take her. i will add water to the wet food then like you suggested for now.
 
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