Met kitty, tested and explain changes I've made...

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Anyname

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I'm sorry that I don't know how Caninsulin works but a friend of a friend has contacted me - two months after it was first flagged that she would. her cat, a female aged 11, part chinchilla, part burmese has been judged by their vet to need 13 units of caninsulin twice a day. the lady does not have the internet and has been told to feed her cat special dry and her cat's health has declined significantly over the 8 months since diagnosis. The owner has halved the dose herself to 8 units and feels happier that it is a more sensible amount to give her cat. No home blood testing as yet. Four vet blood tests at $180 a time.

She called to me last nite - she didn't seem comfortable about me making a home visit to her to see her cat. I showed her how I blood test LB. We live in a pretty nice house so I think she will feel more confident in trusting me from now on. I told her dry of any kind was not ok. She asked my why the vet told her that dry was the best way to go. Whilst she was open to listening she was also keen to tell me things that were useless to hear in the time we had available. I told her that vets suggest dry because they don't understand diabetes. I have given her the names of my testing equipment and told her where to buy it cheap - she seems keen to start testing at home. I don't know if Caninsulin is as good as lantus - but her cat is not caring for itself, it's fur has turned to dreadlocks and she doesn't groom herself - generally it sounds like it's suffered long term damage from mismanagement. Her claws are permanently extended - she doesn't retract them any more. She can't jump and is very listless... I'm just really sorry she took so long to contact me. I asked my friend for her number at xmas time so I could get her started in the right direction - but in the end I had to wait for her to contact me. I'm not sure how much of this damage can be reversed with proper care?

I have offered unlimited support and to come and help her bg test. I understand her cat is very intelligent and will happily allow the bg testing.

Just wondered what people think of a vet suggesting 13 units of caninsulin twice per day? Is it a weaker insulin that lantus? Is it a good insulin? I am sure my vet will suggest changing her cat to Lantus. Any thoughts?

Marilyn
 
Re: helping a friend of a friend

Sorry I don't know that insulin either, so you might want to add it to your subject line to get the best possible eyes. That being said YIKES 13u of any insulin sounds like the only thing that is keeping her cat alive is the dry food. And for your discription its not helping the kitty either. That is a frightening amount of insulin unless there is something else going on like he is an acrocat.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
 
Re: helping a friend of a friend

Questions

1. was the cat diagnosed based on blood glucose test or fructosamine?
2. what dose was it started on and how did it reach 13? Has it been 2 months only or more?
3. any chance of getting her to a different vet for a second opinion?
4. is she testing the urine for ketones?

13 units caninsulin twice a day is a nutso dose if a person isn't hometesting.

Jen
 
Re: helping a friend of a friend

And, please tell her not to switch from dry to wet food until she is hometesting and able to cut that dose. A change to wet could cause a steep drop in insulin needs, and if the insulin isn't adjusted, could lead to serious or fatal hypoglycemia (low blood sugar).
 
Re: helping a friend of a friend

Yes, change your heading to Caninsulin 13U BID and you will get a load of responses really, really fast.
 
aninsulin 13U BID

Thank you. I have written to Joan and Oscar (Aussie's) who started on Caninsulin to find out what Oscar was started on. Joan was on this forum and quickly changed to lantus. This cat (forgotten her name) has had diabetes since june 2010. I don't know what the starting dose was. The woman is very unhappy with the attitude of the vets and is going to change to my vet who has come around to home testing coz of our cat. I'm emailing him privately.

The cat is now quite damaged from the mismanagement. Trouble with back legs, not grooming itself. I imagine permanent damage. I've posted on the insulin group that covers caninsulin.

I was fairly pushy with this lady last nite. At least she came to my house to watch how blood testing works. She is very keen to start doing it. She is very keen to stop dry. Even so, her cat is still on 8 units but is very hungry which tells me that the diabetes isn't controlled as yet. Might improve when the dry stop. I will remind her to watch for a drop of blood sugar when the diet is changed off dry.

The testing for ketones would have been done at the vet. The dose was set by the vet based on the blood tests they did. (she knows nothing so can't inform me very well) They want her to come back for another $180 test but she doesn't want to work with them any more. My vet will likely suggest a change to lantus. I would very much like to see her kitty go on to 2 units of lantus with no dry and perhaps me drop around and do a curve chart for her to show her what is happening. She didn't even know what her cats blood glucose was meant to be. Doesn't know how bad it was or what it is now. nailbite_smile

marilyn
 
Re: helping a friend of a friend

It sounds like you are doing a great job helping her out, Marilyn. If you can get her hometesting, the rest will be easy. There won't be many responses on the Canninsulin forum. It is called Vetsulin in the US and Canada and is no longer being prescribed because of the quality control issues. Some members in the UK are using it because it is all that is available and may be manufactured at a different place and doesn't have the quality control problems. It may be the same in Australia.

But Lantus is a much better choice. Canninsulin hits hard and fast in most cats and doesn't last the whole cycle. 13 units is a huge dose unless the cat has other medical issues like acromegaly.

If she can't get the kitty on Lantus, I would suggest starting again at 1 unit and feeding wet lo carb, testing often including ketones. She can always raise the dose if in a few cycles, it is not doing enough. But changing the food on 8 units could be deadly.
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

Hi Sue, I don't know what acromegaly is? The cat does not sound too well at all.

I will print out all the responses I get from here so she can read what others have to say about her kitty. I've emailed my vet and given him advance warning. He's a good guy. I will tell the lady to make sure she picks up ALL the notes and blood test results from her previous vet to take to my guy.

I have to be careful not to overwhelm this lady. I want to get her going in the right directiion without scaring her. It's fine balance. If too pushy people can back off - and her kitty needs all the help he can get (he's a she). I think she is surprised that I want to help so much. I jsut can't stand this cat being managed so badly - for the want on a few simple changes).

BTW Sue I was in Hong Kong when you privately messaged me recently. I tried to respond but I'm not sure that my message made it thru. We were in the thick of family drama and didn't follow up. I sent something but not sure the new person received. Sorry about that.

Marilyn
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

Here is some info on acromegaly and other high dose conditions: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=375 They are specific diseases that require large amounts of insulin.

I know - I always wonder how many people we scare away because we are such strong advocates for cats - not only excentric but catcentric.....

I did get your message and think you replied to the lady in Australia but I don't think we have heard back from her.....Sure is nice to have you as an Australian "contact"
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

OK the subject caught my attention!

Caninsulin is not a good insulin; I started Shadoe on Caninsulin and never got lower than 400.
It's not a long lasting insulin, lasting less than the 12hrs to the next shot, and a better insulin to use would be Levemir, if possible.
I know that Lantus is also a good insulin, but if the cat does be found to have acromegaly, or some insulin resistance, Levemir is a more gentle insulin and with less sting when you get to higher doses.

If the cat is getting 8u BID, it's likely that the dry food is saving the cat from hypo happening.
Please see that she is FIRST home testing, then see what the actual numbers are for the kitty on the current dose and the current food.
Please see if the owner can arrange to switch to a better insulin, then with testing, she can start the cat at a lower dose, and once comfortable with testing and the insulin, she can do the food changes over to low carb wet.
Please ask the owner to test for ketones, asking at a pharmacy, she can pick up a pack of KETOSTIX.

I guess that's a good enough start for now.... home testing, better insulin, lower dose, switch to low carb wet food.

The dose suggested by the vet may well be based on HIGH BG results when testing at the vet office while the poor cat is stressed to the max.

If you can tell the owner that once she is home testing, she will be saving all that crazy money she is paying to the vet for useless curves. The sooner she is home testing, the sooner she can say where her cat is now and we can help her get the cat feeling much much better and soon.

ETA: I have two cats with acromegaly: Shadoe and Oliver
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

thanx. not sure levimir is available in OZ/ don't thinkso. will tell her everything (print out and drop around comments). need to contact her about order of changes b4 do more damage. late for hair appoint. OMG!!
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

Levemir is also known as detemir

Lantus has another name too - glargine

these are human insulins


Can you confirm if she is using U40 syringes from the vet or U100 human syringes?

If using U100 syringes with U40 insulin -- then the dose would be less by a factor of 2.5 ... 8u would be 3.2u
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

My first reaction; YEEEEKKKKSSS! 13 units of any kind of insulin is way too much. Hopefully this cat is on 40 insulin that would make the dose less crazy. Even if you can't get her to do anything else right now, tell her to decrease the insulin dose. Being pushy could have this cat's life.

If this lady doesn't feel like she can care for this cat anymore, maybe you could convince her to let someone else adopt it?
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

::::Can you confirm if she is using U40 syringes from the vet or U100 human syringes?

No, don't know.

She eventually called me back today and she is very concerned about her cat Pepper. I talked about the syringes but I was out and late for an appointment - I couldn't tell from what she was saying what type of syringe she is using. She's bought the test kit but I'm not sure if she's got the right test strips. I told her that I've written to my vet about her and that she needs to move over to Lantus when she goes to see LB's vet. I will ask her if I can go to the appointment with her and Pepper. She gets too caught up in the past and how her kitty has been mishandled. I don't want to spend time going over what has gone wrong - I want her to listen and learn as she can't use the internet for help. The last thing I asked her was to text me so I keep easy contact with her.



::::If this lady doesn't feel like she can care for this cat anymore, maybe you could convince her to let someone else adopt it?

She only said that because she has been feeling so frustrated with the vet. I can see the problem - the vet she uses charges her $180 each time they check the cats bg's. She doesn't know what is happening with her kitties blood glucose and every time she wants to know she is down a lot of $$$. And the cat has been getting steadily sicker. It's had four blood tests (shaved neck etc) in 8 months. How is that going to help a cat with unregulated diabetes?

But lets face it, this is going on all the time. Vets don't recommend home testing. This woman has promised to call me as soon as she has a bg reading from her new equipment. We are slowly moving in the right direction. I will let you know what syringe as soon as I find out.
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

Baby steps are okay - and probably all she is ready for - as long as she is hometesting and has lowered the amount of insulin. I know it is hard to trust lay people instead of a vet - we run into that every day here on the forum. You might print off the hypo info and give it to her. That might urge her to move along a little faster?
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

She has been using the U100 sryringe!!!

Hope I've still got some readers! She's given me her address. She can't work out how to calibrate her testing machine and says I can go around and test her kitty this morning. Would it be inappropriate of me to offer her a vile of Lantus to change to? She's running out of Caninsuin anyway. I have heaps and she is changing to my vet who only uses lantus. But what dose to start her kitty on? Would 1.5 units be appropriate after the 8 units of Caninsulin. I think I would be safer starting on 2 units - as I don't know why her vet told her 13 units of Caninsulin. 13 units of a 100U syringe is what her vet prescribed.
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

Well, that is better. 13 units of Canninsulin on a U100 needle would be 5.2 units. Still a lot of insulin and testing will tell you how it is working. Here's the conversion chart for her: http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-c ... rinter.htm As long as your vet will work with her, I think it would be very generous to offer the Lantus. I would print off the stickies so she understands how to use it.

As far as dose, I don't know. You could ask over on Lantus about a dose or just try a small dose like 1 unit or 1.5 and get her testing to see if it is too little. You know, it is always better to add, because you can't subtract! Since the dose is being reduced, how about offering her some ketostix also?
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

::::Well, that is better. 13 units of Canninsulin on a U100 needle would be 5.2 units.

Ha, I used a U100 needle too. So when everyone here talks of units they are measuring the units on a U40 syringe?

::::Still a lot of insulin and testing will tell you how it is working. Here's the conversion chart for her: http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-c ... rinter.htm As long as your vet will work with her, I think it would be very generous to offer the Lantus. I would print off the stickies so she understands how to use it.

My vet? No probs. I won't tell him I gave her the Lantus. She will pay me back when she goes to him.

::::As far as dose, I don't know. You could ask over on Lantus about a dose or just try a small dose like 1 unit or 1.5 and get her testing to see if it is too little. You know, it is always better to add, because you can't subtract! Since the dose is being reduced, how about offering her some ketostix also?

Do you remember when Joan of Joan and Oscar changed to Lantus and stopped dry? Her cat dropped dramatically! Went off insulin almost over night. I will start with a little amount but suggest she blood test as much as she can. She informed me she would not be doing it 5 times a day like I do and i told her oh no that's fine - am and pm is fine. My belief is that her own need to succeed will have her testing more and more. No need to slave drive. People motivate themselves and if they don't no amount of nagging will motivate them. :razz:
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

You can use U100 needles with a U40 insulin like Canninsulin if you use the conversion chart. Most people do it to be able to give minute doses. U40 needles make it hard to see less than .5 I can't imagine why her vet started her on them......Lantus is a U100 insulin so what you see is what you get. Both are units; you just report the number with a U100 needle, not what you drew up on the needle. (like she would report 5.2 units not 13)

Yes, if there is a food change I would certainly go for caution.

As you know with Lantus that +6 number helps you figure out how to dose. Maybe start her with am and pm and then slowly introduce the idea of +6?

How wonderful you are helping her out, Marilyn. You certainly have paid it forward several times!
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

I'm one step ahead of you Sue. I was already trying to figure out what time I would push her to test mid cycle. I'll go with +6.

Re helping others. Could write a book about how my life has changed since I became generous with my time and my things. . You never lose by being generous and helpful.
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

Just my thoughts on the dosage. This poor cat has already been on an BG roller coast ride due to being on a high dose of short acting insulin. It might be better to start with one unit of Lantus. This way the BG might be a bit higher in the beginning but there would be less drastic changes for a while.The constant rebounding can sometimes take a toll on a person's metabolic system more than high BG. I assume it works the same for cats. The dose can always be increased gradually if the BG numbers don't come down.
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

I have no advice, but am offering another example of how the ss looks when changing from a high dose of Caninsulin to Levemir. I was using the correct syringes - and fully acknowledge that ECID.
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

OK, went to meet Pepper the sick cat. Tested her. Jenny bought the wrong test strips so I used my meter. (it's so confusing for newbies). She told me that I told her to buy those particular test strips. I also told her to buy the particular monitor but she bought a different one. Anyway I took the stips as they suit my machine and got the right ones for her and dropped them on her front door step last nite so she can test this morning at AMPS. Last nite Pepper tested 345. It was 5pm (2 hrs before her PMPs). Plus no food for 2 hours. She's been dx for 8 months. Can't imagine how much damage this cat has sustained in so many months of unregulated diabetes.

We changed her to lantus. I told her 1.5 units as suggested in the Qld study. I will take her the Qld study printed out. I forgot to take the ketone test strip but am going back this morning with them.

she is quite a strong minded person but she does love her cat. I have confidence that she will do more and more of the correct procedure as it dawns on her how useful it is. She told me once again that she will not test her more than twice a day. I told a +6 test would really help her know more and she said ok she'd do a +6 for a while too.

Don't know how we are going to explain to my vet that I've given her some of LB's lantus. Lady wants to try to get the cat a little better before she see's the vet.

Question: What do I do if the cat is showing positive for ketones?

She is dropping the dry food but the cat eats everything she eats like tomatoes - which she proudly demonstrated by giving the cat a quarter of a piece of tomato and it ate it up with great gusto. It east vegetables from their dinner plates. How bad is it for it to eat tomatoes?

I will post my lantus questions on lantus from now on. Just wanted to let you know how it's going with the new little kitty. It's got no voice. Meow's but no sound - and fur coming out in handfuls. It weighs 5kilos.
 
Re: Caninsulin 13U BID

OK, went to meet Pepper the sick cat. Tested her. Jenny bought the wrong test strips so I used my meter. (it's so confusing for newbies). She told me that I told her to buy those particular test strips. I also told her to buy the particular monitor but she bought a different one. Anyway I took the stips as they suit my machine and got the right ones for her and dropped them on her front door step last nite so she can test this morning at AMPS. Last nite Pepper tested 345. It was 5pm (2 hrs before her PMPs). Plus no food for 2 hours. She's been dx for 8 months. Can't imagine how much damage this cat has sustained in so many months of unregulated diabetes.

We changed her to lantus. I told her 1.5 units as suggested in the Qld study. I will take her the Qld study printed out. I forgot to take the ketone test strip but am going back this morning with them.

she is quite a strong minded person but she does love her cat. I have confidence that she will do more and more of the correct procedure as it dawns on her how useful it is. She told me once again that she will not test her more than twice a day. I told a +6 test would really help her know more and she said ok she'd do a +6 for a while too.

Don't know how we are going to explain to my vet that I've given her some of LB's lantus. Lady wants to try to get the cat a little better before she see's the vet.

Question: What do I do if the cat is showing positive for ketones?

She is dropping the dry food but the cat eats everything she eats like tomatoes - which she proudly demonstrated by giving the cat a quarter of a piece of tomato and it ate it up with great gusto. It east vegetables from their dinner plates. How bad is it for it to eat tomatoes?

I will post my lantus questions on lantus from now on. Just wanted to let you know how it's going with the new little kitty. It's got no voice. Meow's but no sound - and fur coming out in handfuls. It weighs 5kilos.
 
If she's showing anything above trace ketones in her urine, the cat needs to be seen immediately by a vet, preferably one who knows how to treat them. If they are trace, then she needs to see if she can get more liquids into her, monitor bgs and urine and talk with her vet.
 
This is what I found online regardling tomatoes.

Tomatoes and tomato plants: Tomatoes of all kinds are toxic to cats, as are parts of the tomato plant. Ingesting as little as a cherry tomato can cause severe gastrointestinal upset.

Sounds like the plants are worse than the fruit but neither is good for the kitty.

From the ASPCA website:

Tomato Plant
Scientific Name: Lycopersicon spp
Family: Solanaceae
Toxicity: Toxic to Horses, Toxic to Cats, Toxic to Dogs
Toxic Principles: Solanine
Clinical Signs: Hypersalivation, inappetence, severe gastrointestinal upset, diarrhea, drowsiness, CNS depression, confusion, behavioral change, weakness, dilated pupils, slow heart rate.

Mel, Max & The Fur Gang
 
Ketones: 0.4 I think it means "traces". Told her to keep the liquids up.

The +6 reading is 17.1 on my meter. She claims her Kitty seems a little improved already. I know it takes a few days. i don't have time to write this up for the Lantus site as yet. I'm always so busy. From my understanding it takes a few days for Lantus to get to an ok level to start to have an impact. The kitty is off the dry. Yaaaaa. The woman is really pleased with everything we've done. Even took a friend along today to help program her meter.

that's as much as I can do for now. Going tomorrow at +6 to check again. Such a pity that she won't do the internet.
 
You probably have helped save this cat's life.From your description of the cat, it probably didn't have much time left if things kept on going the way they were. Hopefully this story will have a happy ending! :-)
 
I just want to update that I've blood tested Pepper kitty three days in a row - today I used the new meter of the owner which read lower than mine the first day but 270 for +6 seems to be ok for now (coming down a little each day at +6). She isn't bg testing at AMPS or PMPS - I don't want to push her too hard - she's not the type of person to respond to nagging. However she says that the family think Pepper is a lot better in herself. She remains on 1.5 lantus x twice daily. No dry any more. It feels a lot of responsibility to be directing the owner without the control of blood testing more often. However I feel that the change to lantus (LB's lantus) and the lower dose for a small but tubby kitty is the best way to go. Less danger than a higher dose.

I want to attempt some kind of bg curve soon without being intrusive on the owner. But I want to wait for sufficient time for the lantus plus no dry to take affect. Would two weeks be ok to push for a curve day. She lives very close to me. I know this sounds silly but I really feel that her kitty can come good on less than 2 units of lantus with no dry. But I'm not a fortune teller. I feel a bit nervous.
 
I certainly understand your being nervous, Marilyn. It is hard enough to deal with your own diabetic cat with the routine, but to deal with someone elses' cat who isn't testing regularly. I would feel the weight of responsibility too.

I think you do what you can do. I would spell out the dangers of not testing before each shot and give her the hypo information. A curve in 2 weeks may be okay; it may be too late........Unfortunately the thing that would probably turn this lady around to start listening is a hypo.

But you can just do so much. And if you hadn't intervened at all, this kitty might already have died.
 
Marilyn, maybe just flat out tell this woman that the little amount of insulin she is looking at in the syringe can kill a cat if she doesn't test to know what the bg is at shot time. Some people seem to think it is such a small amount what harm can it do. Mishka has been on insulin for 7 yrs. 5 months, food and dose are the same for months on end, but the other morning she was 63. Next test she was down to 45 at her normal feed and shoot time. What if I hadn't been testing her and just shot and gone about the day? I know how hard it can be to get it through to people.....I showed one woman how to hometest, cat was easy and was her only cat that had just recently had a hypo because she was increased, by the vet, to 13 units of N b.i.d. I even gave her everything she needed. Hadn't heard from her so I called her and guess what???? She decided not to bother, she was going to do some hands on and let her cat tell her what she needed to shoot ohmygod_smile

You've been doing a fabulous job of working to help this kitty and I know how frustrating it can be when they don't want to listen. BTW, Little Boy is just gorgeous.
 
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