Mason - prozinc dosing

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

christobevii3

Member Since 2017
Hello,

Our cat Mason was diagnosed with diabetes in September after losing a lot of weight. He was obsessed with dry food and despite getting a grain free high quality food it did not help. He went from 18lbs to 7lbs (large main coon).

We had no luck with two vets recommending science diet and going from vetsulin to now prozinc. After having familiarity with diabetes through my parents I figured it was the WD or MD food being high carb as an issue and stress. So after reading here switched him from his science diet food that they dosed for a 9-10lb cat with 4.0 units to 2 cans of fancy feast in the morning and 2 at night with 3.0 units. I am seeing instant results and guessing I need to lower the dosing slowly for him.

I have a basic sheet with alphatrak of what I started testing if anyone whishes to assist.

Thank you
 
Last edited:
christobevii3 said:
Hello,

Our cat Mason was diagnosed with diabetes in September after losing a lot of weight. He was obsessed with dry food and despite getting a grain free high quality food it did not help. He went from 18lbs to 7lbs (large main coon).

We had no luck with two vets recommending science diet and going from vetsulin to now prozinc. After having familiarity with diabetes through my parents I figured it was the WD or MD food being high carb as an issue and stress. So after reading here switched him from his science diet food that they dosed for a 9-10lb cat with 4.0 units to 2 cans of fancy feast in the morning and 2 at night with 3.0 units. I am seeing instant results and guessing I need to lower the dosing slowly for him.

I have a basic sheet with alphatrak of what I started testing if anyone whishes to assist.

Thank you

Insulin chart:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3sMB5JWsZ_DeU84UElDekdudzQ
Click to expand...
Try to get those amps and pmps numbers each time
 
I'll work on it. Just started really testing so kinda have a scatter plot right now. Since he is at 157 should I be backing down to like 1 unit instead of 3 to be safe?
 
I would say if it's 150-200 do 1, 200-250 do 2, and 250+ do 3. Once you have more data we can come up with a more detailed percise scale.
 
Since he's obsessed with dry try some lower carb foods... But offer wet fancy feast classic as well.

My favorite dry food is Young Again Zero carb food available at Youngagainpetfood.com. They will send you a free sample of the food if you call or email.

Others that are low carb are Evo cat and kitten in the purple bag. There's also a new food out by Dr. Elsley's available on their website.
 
He's doing fine with the wet food, i meant he would just sit and eat endlessly with dry food available. He isn't giving too much issue waiting until feeding times with the wet food.
 
Good for you testing BG at home. It's key! It'll get easier with time. The food change is a big factor in controlling BG.
 
Grats on starting to home test :cat:, it takes one stress factor away :) (I think). If you could setup your signature and put your spreadsheet link there as well, will be super helpful: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/editing-your-signature-profile-and-preferences.130340/

With better numbers, I'm also giving you this because it's better to be prepared: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/

One last thing, sorry to nit pick, but the template SS you are using is for a human meter. I'd recommend switching to the AT2 template, you can find that here too: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
 
Thanks, updated signature and charts to alpha trak sheet.

Did 1.0 unit at 6:30pm and at 8:30pm it is 400. I'll check again at 10:30pm. Hoping in the morning to see in the 200's and to keep it around there and not have to go back up.

Thanks again.
 
Last edited:
At 10:30pm 4 hours post shot/feeding at 404, so not much difference from 2 hours at 400. Might look at a 1.5 to 2 unit shot in the morning depending on the reading
 
He's been pulled from 4 units twice a day with science diet WD dry to 3 units wet. This isn't a recent case of injections but 5 months of vetsulin with no results and a month of Prozinc at 2 units at 2 weeks and 4 units at 2 weeks before a switch to wet food and 3 units with results.

I can check at lunch (6 hours) easily so does the .25 u still apply?
 
christobevii3 said:
He's been pulled from 4 units twice a day with science diet WD dry to 3 units wet. This isn't a recent case of injections but 5 months of vetsulin with no results and a month of Prozinc at 2 units at 2 weeks and 4 units at 2 weeks before a switch to wet food and 3 units with results.

I can check at lunch (6 hours) easily so does the .25 u still apply?
Click to expand...
The 0.25 u recommendation is one we'd give to anyone on here unless they had a very high dose kitty (10+ units per dose). The reason is that it's very easy to go right past a good dose if you increase by larger increments. Also, many cats respond to very small changes in dose.

Checking at +6 is great if you can manage. The AM and PM tests every day before feeding and giving insulin are extremely important to judge whether a planned dose is safe to give. Your switch to wet food and a dose of 3 u BID has produced results but you need more data to be able to judge the dose well. I see you dropped to 1 u this evening. Was that in reaction to the blue numbers today? The reds this evening could be bouncing from the blues or a sign that 1 u is too low a dose.
 
Yes, earlier in the thread they said to do 0.75 or 1.0. I did 1.0 since he seems to be high. I was going to pull back to 1.75 to 2.0 before asking. He's been at 400-600 for 6 months prior so this is all unknown and great at the same time. 18lb cat dropping to 7lbs during our wedding and having to be kept with the vet for 5 days during was not great, and to not see him improve much beyond getting to 9-10lbs with bad numbers, excessive urination, and hunger after.
 
That high number looks to be a bounce. He's not used to being in the blues so his body is overreact. It will pass.
 
He read 448 AMPS this morning so went with 1.5 shot. It would be hard to do 0.25 increments on the syringes I have since they're only marked in whole units.
 
christobevii3 said:
He read 448 AMPS this morning so went with 1.5 shot. It would be hard to do 0.25 increments on the syringes I have since they're only marked in whole units.
Click to expand...
Yes, it can be difficult. If it turns out that you need to dose in smaller fractions, syringes with half unit marks will be very useful.
 
Hi Mason's owner! (Chris? Christo?) Welcome to the board, and welcome to Prozinc! It looks like you've made some good choices with changing him to lower carb food, and getting into a regular routine with testing, so great job with that part!

One difference between vetsulin and prozinc is that Prozinc seems to work best with more consistency and more subtle changes. Kris gave you some good advice about making shifts of .25u at a time. They can be difficult on the u-40 syringes, but you can take some time to play around with it a bit, drawing up some water at different increments and training your eye where the syringe lands for a .5 dose, where it lands for a .25, .75, etc. You can get pretty consistent after just a little bit of practice, and it will really help you manage this.

It does look like Mason is bouncing right now, so I would suggest holding at the dose you are for a few cycles. 1.5u is probably too low, but holding the dose for another three cycles or so will help that to settle out a bit, and then you can move up to 1.75, and so on to find a good dose (at lease a good dose for now - it does change over time).

Please post as much and as often as you'd like with any questions!
 
Ugh. That is not a pretty number for a +6. The problem is, it can be caused by a few different things, and we don't know which one it is yet.

Do you happen to have a spreadsheet from his vetsulin days? Or any home data from that time? Even if it's just a scatter of numbers/doses?

And tell me if I have this correct:
- 5 months vetsulin (approx doses?)
- Started Prozinc at 2u
- 2 weeks - 2u BID
- 2 weeks - 4u BID
 
I agree. It's hard to know why you have a BG this high. It could be bouncing from yesterday's blues. As you accumulate more data on your SS it'll become a great dosing reference.
 
No data from the prozinc and just started testing recently.
Vetsulin started at 1u, 2u, 3u, and 4u. His fructose test didn't improve during.
Switched vets
Prozinc 2u for a couple weeks didn't improve, 4u and didn't improve.
Diet switched to fancy feast classic last week at 3u and now at 1u last night and 1.5u as of today.

He does seem to take a few days to respond to changes and it is raining so maybe that got him worked up. His urination habit is much more normal in the past week though, more energy, and doing well compared to the last 6 months. For reference when the vet was testing for the prozinc curves and a week of vetsulin it was in the mid 400's to low 600's. So for as bad as a 373 is right now it is still improved from the past 6 months.
 
Hi Chris, just looking at the data you have for Mason, my initial thoughts are 3.0U was too much right now and like the others have said, he is bouncing from the blues, which can take up to 6 cycles (3 days) to clear so I would also say to stick with the 1.5U until the bounce clears to see how it is really working for him. We all know the frustration of seeing our fur baby's improve, especially since you don't seem to have seen any significant improvements since his diagnosis. We can definitely work with you so you'll see more of your happy boy come through. A good sign already is the normal urination and increased energy :). Just going to re-iterate those AMPS and PMPS are the minimum recommendation for testing, ideally with him not eaten anything for 2 hours prior. Keep asking questions and collecting data, we're a support group for Mason and YOU :bighug:

Also, could you look at the signature information link again? It's helpful for those of us with bad memories when you start a new thread. It's the light grey text after each of our posts along with the SS link :cat:
 
I agree with sticking with 1.5 for a few more doses. You may need to do a steady schedule of small increases, but giving the changes time to settle before moving the dose again is usually the best way to know if a dose is working or not with prozinc.

Let's see what shows up as you get the AM and PM pre-shot tests, and mid-cycles whenever you can.

You're really doing a great job!
 
501 PMPS, so climbed up quite a bit at 1.5 units. Should I look at adding another 1/2 unit or let it go until the morning? Check in 2 hours and 4 hours?
 
christobevii3 said:
501 PMPS, so climbed up quite a bit at 1.5 units. Should I look at adding another 1/2 unit or let it go until the morning? Check in 2 hours and 4 hours?
Click to expand...
Still bouncing I think so don't change the dose just yet. Let's see if he'll settle in the next cycle or two.
 
Yowza! I wouldn't add any more tonight, and would still say to do 1.5 for the AM cycle, but it does look likely that despite the bounce-factor, you aren't going to want to hang out in low doses for too long.

What are you thinking about testing right now, and what does your schedule allow? Are you feeling confident with getting tests? Is Mason tolerating them well? I'm asking because there are a couple approaches to raising the dose that depend on testing/monitoring.
 
I feed at 6:30am and 6:30pm. M-F I can test at 12:30. So not too much besides 6 hours mid day and 2 hour and 4 hour at night. The weekend I'll be able to do testing throughout the day.
 
Might want to grab some next time you go to the store. They can happen at any BG level but are more prone to it at higher numbers. Don't want you to be scared, I just like trying to be prepared :)
 
They have those just at walmart right? I can probably run in a bit. Will be difficult to get a sample being a fluffy main coon.

Also, he threw up what looks about half his wet food so probably ate too fast being more hungry with the higher BG. How much food would you look at for the fancy feast classics? They're chart says a can per 3.5lbs so roughly 4 cans total in a day. Is that right for a cat looking at being 12-14lbs?
 
Okay, so let's see what numbers he gives you tonight and tomorrow.

Here are the tricky parts:
1. We aren't sure when his nadir is yet. Typical with prozinc is +5-+7, but cats can vary and have earlier or later nadirs, so while we likely are getting a good picture of the drop (or lack thereof) we aren't sure yet.
2. His numbers might be inflated from the 119 (or if he went even lower), so he might not really be as high as he looks like he is.
3. We can't be sure if the numbers you have from the 3u and 4u doses are really what they seem: sometimes if a dose is too high, the cat will stay in high flat numbers.
4. It's also just as possible, that the 3u and 4u doses were too low, and that's why you see the numbers you saw.

So problem #1 you will resolve this weekend if you can do a curve at home. Problem 2 will resolve after a few cycles at the same dose. Problems 3 and 4 can only be resolved through systematic small changes in dose and continued monitoring.

The protocol for prozinc says to change and hold a dose change for a minimum of three cycles. And it recommends dose changes of 0.25u, with monitoring whenever you change the dose (that's why I was asking about testing). So it might actually be best for you to do your dose changes during the PM cycle (or on weekends) since it looks like you can monitor a little better during the evening cycles, but that will also depend on making sure his nadir is in a normal place.

If those are really his numbers (not just bounces), then you might need to do the slightly larger increases, but I wouldn't recommend it yet since you don't have much data at this point. I would say hold the 1.5 through tomorrow morning and get data. Then I would say to increase by 0.25 at a time, hold for three cycles, keep testing, and keep increasing every third cycle.

So 1.75 - 3 cycles
2.0 - 3 cycles
2.25 - 3 cycles, etc.

I would also strongly recommend that you keep posting to keep eyes on Mason's progress because if he gets an active cycle, that will change all of this. And if he doesn't get an active cycle, then everyone can put heads together to consider if the larger increases might be okay to consider. Usually if you do a 0.5u increase it just causes bouncing and messes everything up -- that's why we always push for the 0.25u increases.
 
Pick up a long handled spoon, metal or silicon to catch pee. Clearly label it Mason's Spoon lol. Maury is half Maine Coon and I don't have any issue catching it from behind his pantaloons and fluffy tail :). My weight goal for him is also closer to the 14lb mark. The formula I used suggests 260.4 calories per day, so he gets 1/3 can of Friskies 4x a day. Think it's roughly 62 - 65 calories from just the wet food.

Forgot, yes ketone test strips are available at WalMart :D
 
541 at +2 hours so not too much movement from 501. For figuring the peak insulin drop after injection I'm pretty sure it is around 6 hours for mason and not 7 but a curve will tell later.
 
502 at +4 so that is an improvement... He's starving though from throwing up food earlier. I can tell up going to get woken up extra early tomorrow...
 
Is there a reason you aren't feeding him more?

ETA: It looks like you're feeding him twice/day. Most of us find out kitties do better on a few smaller meals so they aren't 'scarfing and barfing,' and it also helps them not feel so much hunger (which as you know is common with higher numbers).

It's entirely up to you, but I think it would be fine to give him some more food, and would actually encourage it since he threw up much of it earlier.
 
Should i? I think he threw up half and caught him eating it. He's not worse than prior to switching to low carb diet, slightly better. He tries to eat my spatulas in the sink if you don't get everything off or lick all the pans clean. So he isn't fully bad but he's jumping up.

I'm doing 2 cans twice a day targeting 12-14 lbs where vet feeding was 8-10lbs so may be adjusting to the amount. The wet food has a lot more volume. I probably can't do much about feeding more times without a timed feeder.
 
Does he need to lose weight? If not, we generally suggest feeding as much as they want until the numbers get regulated. They can't properly get nutrients from food while their BG is too high, so they really do feel like they're starving. If it was my kitty, I'd feed him again. Maybe a tablespoon, wait 5-10 minutes, another tablespoon, etc. That way he gets to eat, but you keep him from throwing it all up again. I'd probably give him another can.....just very slowly!
 
christobevii3 said:
Should i? I think he threw up half and caught him eating it. He's not worse than prior to switching to low carb diet, slightly better. He tries to eat my spatulas in the sink if you don't get everything off or lick all the pans clean. So he isn't fully bad but he's jumping up.

I'm doing 2 cans twice a day targeting 12-14 lbs where vet feeding was 8-10lbs so may be adjusting to the amount. The wet food has a lot more volume. I probably can't do much about feeding more times without a timed feeder.
Click to expand...
If he's hungry it's OK to feed him.... Just not two hours before preshot testing so the numbers are not food influenced. Most here feed several small meals a day.
 
I agree with the comments about feeding him more at this point. Smaller meals as often as you can manage should help avert the "scarf and barf" thing. I like the yellow this AM. It tells me two things: 1. this is a good dose for now and 2. he didn't bounce very long. :)
 
Did you give a shot yet? If not, I think you could increase to 1.75u tonight and for the next few cycles. If you've already dosed, don't worry about it - tomorrow will be fine.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top