Lower readings today - cannot give insulin?

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Milo & Norman & Sarah

Milo & Norman & Sarah

Member Since 2010
I was able to take a good amount of tests today on Milo. He was under 200 the majority of the day, he hit 222 two hours after eating. Not sure what I am supposed to do since I did not give him insulin this morning and now with a 187 PMPS I'm assuming still no insulin? Thanks for the help!
 
FrostD said:
I would start giving 0.25U when he's above 140 and you can monitor. See how he does with that. We want to get a dose you can consistently, but safely, shoot to help him stay in lower numbers.
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Thank you! Is there a specific range I am trying to get him in? I will give the .25 tomorrow morning if above 140. I’ll try to get a test or 2 tonight as well.
 
Truthfully - I think we should be aiming for remission here, which means being a little more aggressive. But the extra testing has to be there to keep him safe. I think you have a very good shot at remission here.

The more conservative dosing method (SLGS), you want nadirs in the 90-150 range, ideally 90-120. The more aggressive methods with a better chance of remission (Modified ProZinc Method, MPM), nadirs should be 50-100. We call the 50-100 range the "healing greens", as that is where their pancreas heals. So, for a strong remission, you want to get him in the 50-100 range as much as (safely) possible, with insulin support as long as (safely) possible so the pancreas can fully heal.

First goal is to find a consistent dose to shoot to get him to have more even cycles and BGs. Then from there you tweak the dose to ease into the lower numbers.

All that said, it's really your goals for Milo, and what you can realistically do/manage. Have a read through the dosing methods here: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/prozinc-dosing-methods.225629/
 
FrostD said:
Truthfully - I think we should be aiming for remission here, which means being a little more aggressive. But the extra testing has to be there to keep him safe. I think you have a very good shot at remission here.

The more conservative dosing method (SLGS), you want nadirs in the 90-150 range, ideally 90-120. The more aggressive methods with a better chance of remission (Modified ProZinc Method, MPM), nadirs should be 50-100. We call the 50-100 range the "healing greens", as that is where their pancreas heals. So, for a strong remission, you want to get him in the 50-100 range as much as (safely) possible, with insulin support as long as (safely) possible so the pancreas can fully heal.

First goal is to find a consistent dose to shoot to get him to have more even cycles and BGs. Then from there you tweak the dose to ease into the lower numbers.

All that said, it's really your goals for Milo, and what you can realistically do/manage. Have a read through the dosing methods here: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/prozinc-dosing-methods.225629/
Click to expand...

Excellent, thank you for this information! I have read through the link you sent (have it actually pinned to my browser and refer to frequently), but was not 100% sure on how to put all of the excellent information together. This makes sense now, thank you again! I have until mid-August to get as much data/testing from Milo as possible before I am back teaching on campus an hour away (leave the house at 6:30AM and return home around 5PM or so). Testing once classes resume will be extremely hard for me outside of the AMPS and PMPS. So I'm going to try to get as much testing in as his poor ears will give me. I'm going to wait until I hit the 1 week threshold (3 more days) with the .25U to do a 12 hr curve. Milo was a trooper today with all the testing, but I think he needs a bit of a break. Will continue AMPS and PMPS though.
 
You don't necessarily need to do the curves. If you can vary the test times each day (and night here and there), it effectively gives us a pretty good picture of how the dose is working. So one day maybe a +2 and +5, the next day a +3 and +7, day after a +6, etc. Many people find that a little easier than a full curve.

I do think you have a very good chance at remission, so if you can give it a good push until classes resume I think it's worth it. There's never a guarantee, but he's a good candidate. Recently diagnosed, very low dose, fairly low numbers.
 
FrostD said:
You don't necessarily need to do the curves. If you can vary the test times each day (and night here and there), it effectively gives us a pretty good picture of how the dose is working. So one day maybe a +2 and +5, the next day a +3 and +7, day after a +6, etc. Many people find that a little easier than a full curve.

I do think you have a very good chance at remission, so if you can give it a good push until classes resume I think it's worth it. There's never a guarantee, but he's a good candidate. Recently diagnosed, very low dose, fairly low numbers.
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Thank you so much! I gave Milo the .25U after AMPS of 154 and got a +3 and +7. Will get some additional tests after the PMPS as well. I sure hope remission is possible. My previous cat Norman that had diabetes was diet controlled after 2-3 weeks, would love it if Milo could do the same and achieve remission. Thanks again for all of your help!
 
FrostD said:
You don't necessarily need to do the curves. If you can vary the test times each day (and night here and there), it effectively gives us a pretty good picture of how the dose is working. So one day maybe a +2 and +5, the next day a +3 and +7, day after a +6, etc. Many people find that a little easier than a full curve.

I do think you have a very good chance at remission, so if you can give it a good push until classes resume I think it's worth it. There's never a guarantee, but he's a good candidate. Recently diagnosed, very low dose, fairly low numbers.
Click to expand...

So I accidentally gave Milo his insulin (.25U) when he tested at 120. I had the 140 in my brain but completely forgot... Should I leave food out for him tonight? I will stay up as much as possible, but I'm an early rise, early to bed person. I will have other family members up later to make sure he is doing ok. Will also try to get a test in as well.
 
117 (+1), just tested 84 at (+2) - gave him some FF Salmon Flakes in Gravy. I'm not going to bed now...cannot even think about sleeping knowing I did this.
 
Milo made it through the night ok, me not so much as I was very worried. Thankfully he never dropped lower than the 84. I had one more reading at +5 early this morning (1:30 AM) at 111, so I finally went to bed. Just now tested Milo (6:15 AM) and he is at 112. I'm guessing I should not give him insulin this morning?
 
Bron and Sheba (GA) said:
Looks like you managed well. I sorry I couldn’t answer you but my internet was down for several hours.
I’m glad all is OK. Well done!
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No worries, thank you! I browsed through other posts to get some info (and keep me awake). Just not sure what to do now with the insulin? I didn’t shoot at 112 this morning, was that correct?
 
Milo & Norman & Sarah said:
No worries, thank you! I browsed through other posts to get some info (and keep me awake). Just not sure what to do now with the insulin? I didn’t shoot at 112 this morning, was that correct?
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You did the right thing skipping. @FrostD can help you with dosing ….I am not a user of PZI, but she may get you to reduce the dose. She will be along in a few hours.
Make sure you feed Milo well .
 
FrostD said:
Sorry I wasn't around!

Do you know the carb % of the delectables you gave him? That will determine what my recommendation is.
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No worries! Looks like the carb count is 16 kcal per pack ME/40g. Does that help? 1.4 oz pouch, but he only got half of it. I forgot in my sleepiness, I had to give some to my other cat who thought it was treat time for everyone.
 
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I actually think those are pretty low carb based on what I can find/calculate (2-6%?). So, I would keep the 0.25U as long as he's above 120. Realistically I think you can shoot that lower, maybe down to 110, but that's entirely up to you.

What other foods do you have? Have you inventoried your hypo kit and carb %?
 
FrostD said:
I actually think those are pretty low carb based on what I can find/calculate (2-6%?). So, I would keep the 0.25U as long as he's above 120. Realistically I think you can shoot that lower, maybe down to 110, but that's entirely up to you.

What other foods do you have? Have you inventoried your hypo kit and carb %?
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Great, thanks! So, last night was not a low number scare then? His numbers were actually good? I will keep shooting the .25 U then if he is above 120. For the hypo kit, I have the FF Salmon in Gravy, Karo syrup and honey.
 
Since we're doing a bit of a push before you go back to school to see if we can get him in remission, no it wasn't a scare. Reductions will be below 50; the more conservative method (which we'd switch you to once school starts) reductions would be below 90.

That early drop was a bit of a scare, but he leveled out nicely on the medium/low carb food. The FF salmon in gravy is 13%, which we consider medium carb. You'll want 16% or higher for high carb.

You did the right thing by feeding medium carb with such a big early drop.

Below 50 is when things get a little "exciting". You want 1-2tsp high carb at a time for that, and to test every 20-30 mins.

Below 40 is 1-2tsp high carb and karo, testing every 15 mins.

Generally we say they're safe once you're sure they're flat/rising after 2 hours without food as a blanket statement. So you did the right thing by getting that one last test in, and since it was up a bit you were good to go to bed. Nicely done!

If you need help in a pinch, your best bet is to start a new thread on main forum with the date, "HELP", cat's name, and BG info. So last night you would have put something like "7/26 - HELP Milo PMPS 120, +2 84" and that would get eyes on you pretty quickly if anyone is around.
 
FrostD said:
Since we're doing a bit of a push before you go back to school to see if we can get him in remission, no it wasn't a scare. Reductions will be below 50; the more conservative method (which we'd switch you to once school starts) reductions would be below 90.

That early drop was a bit of a scare, but he leveled out nicely on the medium/low carb food. The FF salmon in gravy is 13%, which we consider medium carb. You'll want 16% or higher for high carb.

You did the right thing by feeding medium carb with such a big early drop.

Below 50 is when things get a little "exciting". You want 1-2tsp high carb at a time for that, and to test every 20-30 mins.

Below 40 is 1-2tsp high carb and karo, testing every 15 mins.

Generally we say they're safe once you're sure they're flat/rising after 2 hours without food as a blanket statement. So you did the right thing by getting that one last test in, and since it was up a bit you were good to go to bed. Nicely done!

If you need help in a pinch, your best bet is to start a new thread on main forum with the date, "HELP", cat's name, and BG info. So last night you would have put something like "7/26 - HELP Milo PMPS 120, +2 84" and that would get eyes on you pretty quickly if anyone is around.
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Ok, thank you again so very much for all of your help. I tried finding this type of info last night (specific to lower numbers and hypo) but could not find anything concrete or I was looking in the wrong places! I’m keeping a document now to help locate all of this great help/advise/info for quick reference on my part. Thank you again, I will stay the course with the current dosing and testing and not get freaked out if I see 80’s again! I just couldn’t find what the threshold number for the hypo aspect. Good to know he was still a good distance away!
 
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