Lower Number Not Sure Whether To Shoot

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Louellen

Louellen

Member Since 2015
I just took Morrigan's BG PMPS test and she shot me a 7.9 (142) which is highly unusual for her. She hasn't eaten much tonight but, overall, about the same amount as usual throughout today.

I am going to re-test in another 20 minutes (half hour from original test).

If her number is still at this level, while I know a lot of you will still shoot, I've not seen a number like this. Should I skip the shot tonight? (Vet said not to shoot under 10 or 180 right now)????
 
That's a really tough question Louellen - I understand why you're not sure what to do for the best. If it was just about any other cat, I'd say shoot and monitor to see what she can do with the insulin with a much lower starting number, but with Morrigan hating testing so much I'm not sure you'll be able to monitor her as much as you might need to later on. If there's no way she'll let you get at least 2 more tests later, you might have to either skip or give her a BCS...maybe 0.50 if you want to give her some sort of insulin.

@Chris & China @julie & punkin (ga) what do you think?
 
Without having some mid-cycle or nighttime tests to compare to, it's really going to be up to you what you're comfortable with doing.

If you have enough supplies and can stay up and test tonight (if necessary), I'd suggest you go ahead and give the 1 unit...Lantus is much better at keeping numbers low than it is at bringing them down from high numbers and every chance to shoot lower is a gift. You'd want to get a +1 and +2 tonight for sure

If you're not able or willing to test tonight, it's going to be safer to skip, but with her starting to show some real progress, that's going to mean you're going to have to start over again

The other option is to shoot a reduced dose, like .5 or .75, but it's still important for you to get at least another test in before you go to bed to make sure she's safe

I can't stay up with you to help, but maybe @manxcat419 can if you should decide to go for it.
 
Thank you both...I re-tested at the half hour mark with a bit more food and she's at 7.7 (138.6) so, I'm going to give it another test (if she'll let me) at the +1 but, I'm seeing this go down a bit (though could be meter adjustment/error) so, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with shooting at all tonight.

Any idea why it may be still dropping in spite of eating?
 
Lantus dosing is based upon how low a dose takes a cat...and the low point typically occurs in between the shots. With only having preshot tests I don't feel comfortable suggesting anything. I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but I only know how to advise with some more info and I don't want to advise something unsafe.

I would say that if your kitty is getting to blue numbers on 1unit, in spite of eating dry food, that's pretty good. Sounds like testing and getting switched to canned food has been hard.

Have you looked at the suggestions on transitioning a dry food addict on www.catinfo.org? If youve got this much progress on dry food, you might be surprised by the changes if you can wean off the dry food.

There's also a good post on Testing and Shooting tips that might be helpful. I'll grab that link and post it for you.
 
Thanks Julie and Chris. And no worries Julie - I just wanted to make sure I wasn't being over-cautious as I know those of us whose cats will allow frequent testing would shoot that number. I just know how many problems Louellen's had trying to get Morrigan to let her test. It sounds as though we're all thinking cautiously which was what I really wanted to check. :)
 
Thanks Julie & punkin...I have tried all of those suggestions with no real progress in totally off the kibble. I got her to a 50/50 canned and dry (m/d kibble/DM kibble) but, can't get her solely onto the wet foods and she's being a stickler today in getting her to eat tonight. She keeps wanting out into the backyard. I'm up so, she's there but, going to bring her back in to get another test in about 15 minutes more for the +1.

I know our vet said not to shoot if she's below 10 (180)
 
It looks like you changed foods today? Is that the dry or canned food?

Have you heard of Young Again Zero Carb? It's still kibble (we'd still prefer they eat wet but if you can't force it, you can't force it) but it's only about 5% carbs, so a better choice than the DM or MD

It's only available online, and it's kind of expensive, but I hear that they don't eat much and one bag can last a long time.

Might be something to look into
 
She's NEVER had a "starting" number of 7.9 (142) and now 7.7 (138) so, I don't know how low it could take her through the night. With NO shot and food, is that bit of a decrease something to be concerned about...meaning...still dropping?
 
Chris & China said:
It looks like you changed foods today? Is that the dry or canned food?
Click to expand...


I just stopped using the DM (kibble) as it was spiking her BG up more and went back solely to the m/d (kibble) which she seems to metabolize better. The canned foods are the same.

She eats about 1/4 cup kibble and 1 1/3 3 oz cans per day.
 
Just seeing the last few posts. The blood sugar can continue to drop even after a skipped shot. Because Lantus has a depot - built up in the body and slow-releasing - you can't assume that skipping a shot guarantees that the blood sugar will stay up.

I'd written this below but wanted to put the answer to your last question here at the top.

One more - not sure if you're familiar with the Start Low Go Slow dosing method: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/lantus-levemir-start-low-go-slow-method-slgs.129446/

For a kitty that is difficult to test, this would be the best dosing guideline to use. It calls for doing a curve once a week to help determine what adjustments need to be done with the dose. The suggestion on SLGS for a lower than typical preshot is here:

How to handle a lower than normal preshot number

In the beginning we suggest following the guidelines in the FDMB's FAQ Q4.4:

Q4.4. My cat's pre-shot level was way below the usual value. Should I give the injection?

A4.4. There's no hard and fast rule, but if you don't have data on how your cat responds to insulin, here are some general guidelines.
  • Below 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), don't give insulin.
  • Between 150 and 200 (8.3-11.1 mmol/L), you have three options: a.) give nothing; b.) give a token dose (10-25% of the usual dose); c.) feed as usual, test in a couple of hours, and make a decision based on that value.
  • Above 200 (11.1 mmol/L) but below the cat's normal pre-shot value, a reduced dose might be wise.
  • In all cases, if you are reducing or eliminating insulin, it's wise to check for ketones in the urine.
  • Above the normal pre-shot value, give the usual dose, but if the pre-shot value is consistently elevated, it's a good idea to schedule a full glucose curve to see whether a change in dose or insulin is appropriate. In most cases, the target "peak" value should not be below 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/L), and for some cats it might be higher.
Keep in mind that these are general guidelines, and they should be personalized to your own cat's reactions to insulin. If your experience is that your cat does not became hypoglycemic with a dose which is close to her usual, then your experience should be your guide.

With experience, you may find that lowering these thresholds may work well for your cat. When you have reached that stage, the following guidelines are suggested for Lantus and Levemir users following the Start Low Go Slow approach:

If the preshot number is far below usual preshot numbers:
  • Do you need to stay on schedule? Then skip the shot.
  • Do you have some flexibility with your schedule? Then stalling to wait for the number to rise might be a good option. Don't feed, retest after 30-60 minutes, and decide if the number is shootable.
  • Repeat until the cat either reaches a number at which you are comfortable shooting, or enough time has passed that skipping the shot is necessary.
If the number is near usual preshot numbers:
  • Look at your data to see what numbers you have shot in the past and decide what would be a safe, shootable number for your cat. Don't feed. Stall until kitty reaches the preshot number you've decided on and then shoot.
We usually don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 90 mg/dL when following the SLGS Method. Remember that with SLGS, your goal is to achieve flat numbers that are greater than 90, so there is no need to push a cat into numbers lower than that.

When in doubt, please use the guidelines from the FAQs Q4.4 posted above.​
 
Thanks Julie...according to this then...she is BELOW the 150/8.3 mmol so I am NOT comfortable shooting tonight. If this were day time, I'd be able to ask my vet but, of course, this stuff doesn't happen when your vet is in the office.

This is all new territory for me and given what she's like personality wise, this isn't easy for me to get these tests so, I'm going to re-test soon and see where she's at. If she's STILL dropping...what do I do?
 
I added more to my comment too....Might be something worth checking into for hard core kibble addicts

Also, on CatInfo.org, there's a whole chapter on "transitioning the hard core kibble addict"....there might be something there for you to try.
 
Thank you...I've tried all of this and more...still trying to work on this by keeping kibble up during the day unless we're going to be out for most of the day (which is rare) and only putting both canned and kibble down through the night. If we leave only the wet food down, she'll keep us up all night until the kibble goes down or won't eat at all and we ran into real problems doing that with her! Vet gave us heck for it. Said to go slower with it all.
 
I think you can even call the Young Again company and they'll send you a sample of their Zero Carb food to see if it's something she'd find "acceptable" as food

Another option you might try is Stella and Chewy's freeze dried foods.....you're supposed to add water to them, but I know some people who feed it dry so their kitties have that "crunch" they love so much
 
At the 1 hour mark past shoot time...she's dropped more! 7.0 (126)

She's eating some kibble and some canned...not much but, eating so, I don't understand what is happening with NO shot and it being +13 hours past the shot in the a.m.???
 
The two techniques that I've seen people have good results from are 1) pulverizing the dry food and sprinkling it over the canned food and 2) sprinkling Fortiflora (available from vets or online, not in stores) over the canned food.

Louellen said:
If she's STILL dropping...what do I do?
Click to expand...
You can leave dry food out overnight. You could try to test her again in another hour or so - if the BG test is flat or rising, you're probably ok for the rest of the night.

So she's gone from 142-138-126 over the course of an hour? Is that right?
 
It's possible that the change to the different kibble is making her BG go lower....her body may metabolize it better or it may be a lot lower carb

You haven't shot anything yet, have you?
 
NO...I haven't given her any insulin for 13 hours now and she's been eating.

She's had the m/d before. I was trying the DM because it was supposedly "better" but, it raised her BG too much so, I went back to the m/d kibble
 
Are you still using the pen needles to inject the dose? One of the reasons we suggest using a syringe instead is because they are more precise in the dosing. I'm just wondering if she got a little more insulin than usual this morning.

I would skip the shot tonight, and leave out some food for her overnight.

If you are still using the pen needles, I'd switch to syringes so you can be more accurate just in case that's a factor.

I'd also keep trying to get her switched away from the dry - it can take a while, ie months, for some cats, but it's so worth it for her health. Diabetic cats are dehydrated - that's part of the definition of diabetes. Just keep trying!

I have to go but I think if you skip the shot and leave out food she'll be ok. She's basically surfing - not dropping significantly - and it would be unlikely that she would suddenly plummet this late in the cycle and with food available.
 
As she's still dropping, I don't think you've got much choice but to skip. I'm sure she will be OK as you've not given her any insulin since this morning, but if she will allow another test, it wouldn't hurt to see just where she's heading. If she won't then, as Julie says, I'm sure she'll be fine as long as you leave some food out for her overnight - she'll still have some depot action going on, but no fresh insulin on top of that.
 
So @manxcat419 ....I'm going to test again in about another 15 minutes as that will be the the +2 (but NO shot given). IF she is still dropping...having gone 14 hours without insulin at that point....should I be worried?
 
As long as she doesn't do a sudden dive, I think she should be fine - she shouldn't be able to drop all the way into seriously hypo numbers just from the depot as that's only a fraction of the amount of insulin she'd usually get. I do think she should stay on the food she's had today though - it seems to have done her numbers a lot of good. Though if you're worried, you could leave some of the other food that looks like it was raising her numbers out for her tonight to boost her up a bit. It would probably send her high by the morning, but you can deal with that tomorrow after some sleep. It's better to let her get too high overnight than have to worry about her all night or have her raising hell because you're having to test her every couple of hours. :bighug:
 
Thanks Manxcat! I'm going to re-test soon and then, put down all of the types of diabetic foods that she'll eat, including the DM which spikes her BG more than the m/d and HOPE that I can sleep some! Thank YOU!!
 
Just something to think about...The ingredients for the Hill's M/D kibble are Chicken By-Product Meal,(this is meal made from the worst piece of the chicken, like the feet, feathers) Corn Gluten Meal,( Corn gluten meal (CGM) is a byproduct of corn (maize) processing that has historically been used as an animal feed (take note that the expression gluten here is inexact; there is no true gluten in corn, but simply corn proteins. The expression "corn gluten" is colloquial jargon that describes corn proteins that are neither gliadin nor glutenin. Only wheat, barley, and rye contain true gluten which is formed by the interaction of gliadin and glutenin proteins). It can also be used as an organic herbicide) Pork Fat, Brewers Rice (high carb), Wheat Gluten, Powdered Cellulose, (this is basically a nice term for sawdust...yes, SAWDUST) Pork Protein Isolate, L-Lysine, Chicken Liver Flavor, Lactic Acid, Whole Grain Corn,(again, high carb), Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, Calcium Carbonate, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, DL-Methionine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Carnitine, L-Arginine, Mixed Tocopherols for freshness, Phosphoric Acid, Beta Carotene, Natural Flavors.

I agree that since she's still coming down, you should skip the shot and get some rest! Looks like you may get more chances to "SHOOT LOW TO STAY LOW" in the near future!!
 
Thank you Chris & China...I know you guys don't worry about this range as it's a "good sign" but, this is the lowest I've seen her go and I am confused with the dropping still...in spite of eating something (not much tonight for some reason). She's usually climbing somewhat but, night is her lowest numbers...just not THIS low so, I'm very worried as to why this is happening since nothing different has been done.

I agree...the prescription stuff is crap. She gets canned Welness Core, Purina ProPlan turkey, some BFF (fish) for flavour when she's really balking at canned. The kibble is the only prescription formula but, it's the only ones she'll eat other than SOME Wellness Core Grain Free Turkey kibble. Maybe, I should go to that?
 
Evo kitten & Cat is also supposed to be lower carb if you don't want to try the Young Again Zero Carb

Well I have to go...have to be up early to shoot China and then I'm out with DM to get her to some appointments.

Since you didn't shoot tonight, you really don't have to worry about her going too low.
 
The Wellness Core Grain Free does still have carbs in it as they've replaced the grain with potatoes. That said, the rest of the ingredients list does read rather better than the M/D one - I don't see any mention of cellulose for a start! Either the Young Again or Evo are definitely lower in carbs if she'll eat them but if the Wellness is something that she finds acceptable, I think it might be worth giving it a try as she's only getting a small amount of dry food anyway. If it spikes her numbers you'll be able to tell fairly quickly and then you can rethink, but I think I'd try it for the lack of sawdust if nothing else.

And don't think for a minute that none of us have ever worried about numbers in the 100s - I know the first time Rosa dropped below 200 I was really worried...you don't even want to know how much I panicked the first day she surfed green!! Seeing numbers much lower than you're used to is always a shock.
 
Ok, I got a bit of relief in terms of the +2.5 reading (NO insulin) ...156.6 (8.7 mmol/l) so, she's come up...rather than down and maybe, that's not a good thing but, it's the first time she's been that low...since monitoring and seeing it continue to drop, in spite of NO insulin AND food....that had me worried as to why it kept dropping. I feel a bit more at ease now by comparison and it's 3 a.m. here. Phew long day tomorrow but, I don't think I'll test again tonight. She's pretty upset at this every half hour stuff now.

Yes, I agree....the Young Again or Evo would be PERFECT (if she'd eat it) but, we cannot get it in Canada! Eco has been stopped from being imported up here and Young Again will ship up here BUT...at over $100 (shipping and cost of food) in U.S. dollars...making it closer to $120 CDN then, we get hit with duty and our HST taxes which would make it at least, $150 CDN for a 6 lb bag! Seriously! I've been talking to people about being Canadian Distributors for them and calling back and forth with the Young Again manufacturers but, no one is biting and THEY can't get anyone to bite because of the cost factor.
Evo...wherever it was stopped...manufacturer or Canadian food Inspections...they will NO longer have it up here and there is NONE anywhere to be found (that was a day's worth of calling for me and another member here who is also desperate for something low carb for her diabetic cat.

Manxcat...thank you so much for understanding my total panic! I have been a total wreck for hours now. I'm still shaking but, feeling a little better at seeing it rise. I think it was the fact that it kept dropping in spite of food and NO insulin that had me most worried. Now, I have to worry about morning numbers but, I guess we all need some sleep as she is sleeping and seemingly happy...as long as I don't go near her! LOL
 
Wow - that's a crazy price for the Young Again...I don't see how anyone could possibly afford to buy that long-term especially on top of the cost of insulin and testing supplies.

I'm really glad Morrigan's started coming up for you again - I really hope you can get some good sleep for what's left of the night. Tomorrow's a new day and you'll deal with whatever you need to like you always do. :)

And I agree - seeing those numbers drop without insulin must have been so frightening especially when she ended up lower without a shot than she's been really since starting insulin. Fortunately now she's leveled out for you, you'll feel better about things if it happens again knowing that she does level out sooner or later. I wouldn't test her again now tonight - if I were you I'd get some sleep and leave her in peace until the morning. :bighug:
 
Thank you @manxcat419 @julie & punkin (ga) and @Chris & China Again, I can't thank you enough for being here so late with me this morning. When I saw that rise, I figured "ok...it's going up, not down" I totally panicked at seeing it continue to lower!!!! I think that was what was bothering me most...the continued down curve with NO insulin AND having eaten. I was totally panic stricken!
I think I've gotten about 3 to 4 hours sleep broken up through the night but, she ate more through the night (nibbled on m/d kibble) then, ate about a 3 oz can of low carb foods mixed this morning (Wellness Core, BFF and Purina ProPlan).

This morning's number was surprisingly her "normal" morning range...though not good numbers but, "normal" for her thus far...at a 288 (16.0 mmol/l) and that's at 24 Hrs with NO insulin and having eaten.

I called the vet this morning to ask what that was all about with those numbers continuing to drop even without insulin for over 13 hours. He said that I did the right thing in NOT shooting and feeding her more to see where it was going BUT...those numbers coming down like that (still dropping even with eating and no insulin) are not worrisome to him however, they are telling him that her pancreas *may* be kicking in again, here and there and it could be troublesome if that is happening and not knowing when it will happen...especially, late at night/overnight. So, he wants me to keep giving her the canned foods as much as possible today and do another check at the +6 time frame (she got her insulin this morning as usual) then, call him back to see where she is at. I *may* (if she will let me...she's pretty uptight at the number of tests already) TRY to get another one in about +4 and +6 to see where she is at.

Otherwise, she's pretty much happy and herself (knock on wood that she stays that way!).

And, yes...we just cannot afford that cost for a 6 lb bag of cat food from Young Again... and on the chance that she won't eat it! She's been picky with lower carb kibble such as Nature's Valley Instinct which the manufacturer says is 13% carb on DMA. It seems to have much healthier ingredients but, it's a "no go" with that too. So, paying out $150 (literally! $32 U.S. SHIPPING, $54 U.S. for a 6 lb bag, duty ?$$s and HST tax at 13% plus exchange rate from U.S. to Canadian) so, it's impossible for most of us Canadians to get it! Another member here and I have been battling with these companies as the other member has also added the crusade of asking WHY the EVO can't be brought up here with NO answers given to her. Her cat is worse than Morrigan and won't even sniff canned food so, she's REALLY stuck! At least Morrigan will eat some canned and some kibble.

I am good and angry at Canada as we both believe that Canadian governments are caving to Hills, Purina and Royal Canin to hold a monopoly on these foods so that vets can sell them at inflated rates and we can't get them anywhere else. I was even willing to drive across border to pick some up but, they won't let us back across the border with the EVO as it's banned/"discontinued" up here and we can't get a straight answer as to why????

I am so frazzled today and Morrigan is out in the backyard, chasing birds! She slept and will sleep most of today. :rolleyes: :smuggrin: :p

Ok, off to Round 2 and see where she goes today with her numbers. Heaven help me!
 
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A couple of bits of info that you can consider as you move ahead:

~ Lantus is a depot insulin, so when you skip a shot (which was fine) you are interrupting its normal action. Think of it as timed release - each shot builds some up in the body and then sort of slow releases. There is an equilibrium between the size of the dose and the amount built up in the body. In other words, the depot adjusts to "fit" the size of the dose, then it continues to "give" for as many as 6 cycles. So your shot yesterday morning was continuing to help control the blood sugar last night, and likely even today. When you skip a shot, that action is interrupted, and it will take about 6 cycles of consecutive, same size of dose shots before you can see again what that dose can really do for the cat. The best description of how Lantus works is here - and it will help you move ahead if you understand how it works in the body.

So checking her at +6 today isn't going to reflect what the dose can do. After last night's skip, it would be Friday morning before you've had 6 consecutive shots and THEN you'll be able to see what the dose can do. Also, while some cats have their nadir (low point) at +6, most cats have a moving nadir until they are controlled, and if the cat bounces there is no regular Lantus curve as the bounce overrides it. See the second post here for a description of how a bounce works. A +6 has some value, but rather than a person always checking at +6 and preshots, I'd suggest varying the times of your tests. If you think of the spreadsheet as a jigsaw puzzle, consider how well you can see the picture if you have a stripe down the middle, along with the edge pieces, compared to a sprinkling of pieces throughout the puzzle. Those of us with experience can tell a lot more from looking at a spreadsheet with a sprinkling of tests all over the document compared to a stripe down the middle.

~ the dry food - i'd put all your energies into trying to wean her off of dry food and on to only canned low carb. I know you haven't had success yet, and I know you've been trying, but it is important. I don't want to rant about it, but it is really critically important for helping to manage her diabetes. Dr. Lisa says it better and more thoroughly here than I can - I'd just say that for Morrigan's sake, I'd be relentless at working at transitioning her. Many diabetic cats can become diet-controlled if they are given an appropriate low carb diet + some insulin support for a little while. Personally, I've never seen a cat on dry food go off of insulin. I wouldn't even consider putting forth effort to find another dry food, just to help her accept the canned. The appropriate diet is everything.

Also, since you've got the hang of hometesting down, feel free to move to posting on the Lantus/Levemir Insulin Support group page. There you will find many experienced Lantus users who can teach you what you need to know to help Morrigan. There's also a lot of traffic on that page, so you can get pretty much immediate help when you have questions or run into a problem like you had last night.
 
No worries on being here late Louellen - I was still awake anyway. :) Three or four hours of broken sleep seems to be about average for me too at the moment - not only am I still trying to get back to "normal" after such long hours with Rosa for those few months, but it's been so ridiculously hot here the last 2 or 3 weeks too that that really isn't helping either, so I can completely understand why you wouldn't have slept all that well after such a worrying evening. :bighug:

I'm really happy to hear that Morrigan's numbers didn't go really high overnight - what a lovely surprise to find her right back where she usually is this morning! It sounds as though your vet is on the right track with pushing the canned food and trying for a mid-cycle test. I do understand that Morrigan doesn't always comply with what anyone else wants though, so if you do find she just won't allow a mid-cycle test today, there's always tomorrow to try again.

It does sound as though there must be a very strange "reason" for not allowing the Evo to be distributed in Canada. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that it is about the prescription only companies pushing their diets to the exclusion of everything else. Although, as I've just pointed out to Purina this morning over their decision to withdraw the Friskies Special Diet foods, they don't actually have another option, prescription or otherwise, that meets the needs of the cats in this house with both a CKD girl and Rosa's diabetes...so they're going to lose my business completely at this rate (and I'm feeding 6 cats every day). They can push the prescription foods all they like, but they're not the answer for most of us! :P If I thought there was any way I could get the Evo to you, I'd order it for you here and mail it on to you but I'm 100% sure they'd just stop it at the border as it seems they're so determined not to allow it into the country. :(

It's great that Morrigan seems to be unconcerned at least and is enjoying being outside. I hope that's a good sign when it comes to you needing to get another test from her later! :) Sometimes I really wish I could be a cat and just spend most of the day sleeping - even just for a week! ;)
 
Thank you so much Julie & punkin. I will move to the lantus/levemir support page and ask away and read! :)

I do agree with you that the kibble is bad and I know it and I am trying hard to get her off of it totally. From zero wet food in April to 50/50...I am making progress! :) Just not completely there yet. I am trying and bit by bit, I'm taking up the kibble during the day and only offering canned foods (about 4 to 6 times/day so that she's hungry enough to eat it but, won't eat more than a tablespoon of it at any given time no matter how hungry she is.) That is how we ran into trouble with her because we refused to give her the kibble for 2 days and only the canned food many, many times per day and leaving it down...even the frozen versions...she quit urinating and defecating and scared the heck out of us AND THE VET who gave us heck for it and said to go "SLOWLY" at converting since she's so stubborn...even HE kept her for an entire day and tried and she wouldn't eat anything at all for him and he had every can on his shelf down as well as sending his girls to Pet Valu to get more brands! :woot: That's when he handed her back to us and said, "this one is stubborn...good luck....give her the m/d or DM kibble and keep trying!" I think I heard him sigh and saw him shake his head as we left. I didn't want to be me at this point either!
 
You can only do as much as Morrigan will allow. If she's prepared to starve herself when she doesn't get that little bit of kibble then, as your vet told you, she has to eat something. You've got her to 50/50 which is a good start and you're still working on it - I'm not sure there's much you can do other than keep working on it for now! She'll get there - you've got her halfway to wet only already...give her time and, as you already know, just increase the canned and decrease the kibble gradually so she doesn't notice too much of a difference on a daily basis.
 
manxcat419 said:
No worries on being here late Louellen - I was still awake anyway. :) Three or four hours of broken sleep seems to be about average for me too at the moment - not only am I still trying to get back to "normal" after such long hours with Rosa for those few months, but it's been so ridiculously hot here the last 2 or 3 weeks too that that really isn't helping either, so I can completely understand why you wouldn't have slept all that well after such a worrying evening. :bighug:

I'm really happy to hear that Morrigan's numbers didn't go really high overnight - what a lovely surprise to find her right back where she usually is this morning! It sounds as though your vet is on the right track with pushing the canned food and trying for a mid-cycle test. I do understand that Morrigan doesn't always comply with what anyone else wants though, so if you do find she just won't allow a mid-cycle test today, there's always tomorrow to try again.

It does sound as though there must be a very strange "reason" for not allowing the Evo to be distributed in Canada. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that it is about the prescription only companies pushing their diets to the exclusion of everything else. Although, as I've just pointed out to Purina this morning over their decision to withdraw the Friskies Special Diet foods, they don't actually have another option, prescription or otherwise, that meets the needs of the cats in this house with both a CKD girl and Rosa's diabetes...so they're going to lose my business completely at this rate (and I'm feeding 6 cats every day). They can push the prescription foods all they like, but they're not the answer for most of us! :p If I thought there was any way I could get the Evo to you, I'd order it for you here and mail it on to you but I'm 100% sure they'd just stop it at the border as it seems they're so determined not to allow it into the country. :(

It's great that Morrigan seems to be unconcerned at least and is enjoying being outside. I hope that's a good sign when it comes to you needing to get another test from her later! :) Sometimes I really wish I could be a cat and just spend most of the day sleeping - even just for a week! ;)
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Oh wow, Manx...you really are in frustration then. Sleep is so important. Thankfully, up here, we have moderately warm days at about the mid-70's or so and even then, we've had a couple of days in the 80's and figure it's hot! That's us thick blooded Canadians for ya. I have friends in Florida who say that summer is like our winters because it's so hot that they stay indoors in air conditioning and only go to their cars with a/c and malls/offices/stores etc.. I made the mistake of going down there in the summer one year to take our daughter to Disney and Bush Gardens...oh wow! We were having the worst summer up here (only in the 60's at most every day and raining every day) so, we went down there to find "summer". We found it alright! :) I lived in the ocean for 1 full week and a pool the other! It was well over 100 degrees and we baked.

Friskies Special Diet...I haven't seen up here at all. I kept looking for it but, I guess that's another one that the Canadian vets have a monopoly on. Anything that can be labelled as "special diet" is considered "prescription" up here and it's Hills, Purina and Royal Canin that rake in the cash for it through the vets. It's such a shame though. Like you, I had a CKD cat up until last March who needed special food and wow...it was hard to find other than the prescription formulas that he wouldn't eat at all. Finally, after much searching and fuss, we found a Medi-Cal brand that he would eat (prescription) BUT...they stopped making it! Royal Canin bought out Medi-Cal so, they had their own foods. I was furious! Sadly, he was 18 and passed away but, all that I could do was follow a list (Tanya's list I believe it was) and go low phosphorous with what we could get up here. Canada is really slow and stupid with its pet foods. We don't have half the selection that the U.S. has and are therefore, confined to special foods in the form of prescription foods....which..we know are low quality and not at all much better than the worst commercial cat food.

Edit to add: By the way, I know how upsetting it is to hear that a cat has passed away with the same disease state as one of our own so, I wanted to let you know that Copper, being 18, developed what we think (vets think) was a sinus cancer...it was NOT CKD that he died from as he was still doing ok with that. :)
 
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Oh, you know how it is - one way or another we all get through it! It's not as if I've ever been the best at sleeping anyway so I'm kind of used to it!! It hasn't really been all THAT hot here by a lot of people's standards I guess - it's been somewhere in the lower-mid 80s outdoors, but around 90 in the house. It's just that with hubby's allergies we can't have a window open in the bedroom so the heat doesn't really go away much overnight - and because it doesn't usually get all that hot here, we don't have air conditioning to help either. But I really shouldn't complain - we've had a few weeks of really nice sunshine with only the occasional rainy day...so unusual for the PNW area, but Rosa's been loving the amount of outdoors time I can give her! :D

There is definitely some sort of monopoly going on there with the food - if they could sell the Special Diet outside the US, they might find they had enough customers to keep the line running. Though of course no doubt they want us all to buy the Purina prescription foods now (and that isn't going to happen in this house)! Our CKD girl won't touch the prescription foods anyway - we tried and tried with her, but we kept finding the prescription food untouched and her stealing ANY other kind of food she could get off any of the other plates in the house - people food, the kibble we were using before Rosa's diagnosis, anything and everything. So she was clearly hungry, just not prepared to eat something she didn't like. And of course I don't want to switch Rosa off the Friskies (they get a mixture of regular pate and Special Diet at the moment) because she's doing so well on it that I'm worried that if I try switching she either won't like a different brand or it won't do good things for her BG levels. :( But then we have to do the best we can for Shadow too - she's actually hubby's cat and is 18 so he isn't TOO worried if she eats food that isn't ideal sometimes as he thinks she's probably only got a year or so left anyway, but I don't want to do her any damage either. And still, compared to the selection you have available in Canada, we're lucky with the choice we have here - it's just so frustrating to find a great food that works for all the cats only to have it taken off the market a few months later.

I'm so sorry to hear you lost your CKD cat, though 18 is certainly a great age either with or without underlying medical conditions. Tanya's list is great for information and definitely helps with finding those low phosphorus foods - I'm going to have to study that later on today and try to find something that I can maybe offer alongside the regular Friskies pates so we can hopefully keep Rosa happy and come up with something that won't hurt Shadow's kidneys any further.
 
Manx, I totally get where you're coming from and why. It is so hard to find foods that multiple cats can eat. I used to have to separate Morrigan from Copper's food because it wasn't considered "healthy" for HER to have. In the end, much like your hubby has said about his cat, the want for food diminished so, I gave him pretty much whatever he'd eat. But, in your case...yes, I can see this being a difficult position to be in. I do believe that there are foods on Tanya's List that are good foods, low phosphorous and low carb. For me, the vet was insisting also "low protein" but, I had to give in and allow the protein and just watch the phosphorous as there's SO much debate going on as to which is best for CKD. Some are still on the low protein, others...low phosphorous and others...just want you to get prescription food and that's it. Of course, I contemplated homemade at that time as he would eat chicken and turkey home cooked but, I doubted my abilities to get the proper balance of things. I wonder now if I might have been better off doing that? But, you know what? I know lots of people who homemake their pet foods and honestly, as much effort, time and care as they put into it, they ended up with the same results at the bottom line anyways. Sometimes, I think that we may have "too much" information and get ourselves into trouble. However, with the pet food industry having all sorts of profit margins that they care about...we have no choice but to be informed, don't we? Still...it's enough to drive a person insane, isn't it?

As for your heat situation...wow! I have allergies too...including major ones to Morrigan and outdoor allergies, dust mites...you name it. We do have air conditioning so, that's not as much of a problem but, our 2nd floor bedrooms don't get as cool as we need them to get so, we put a small window unit (on sale from Home Depot) in our bedroom window. That really makes a difference. I also found that it helped my allergies. It might be worth a thought???

I'm sure you're going to find a food that will suit both...even if not ideal for both of them in every way...some sort of a compromise, perhaps? Hopefully, one that matches both of their criteria AND they'll eat! :) That's the hard part!! :rolleyes: :woot::banghead:
 
Well, I just cleaned out our local area of all the Special Diet food I could find - unfortunately most of what was left on the shelves was the Ocean Whitefish flavor which probably means they're going to get a bit too much fish for now but there's only so much I can do. They do get the regular pates as well, so I guess for now they won't get any of the fish flavors of those ones to compensate for having to feed the Special Diet fish. And I'm going to have to experiment a bit and see if there's something else that they all find acceptable, that's low phosphorus and that doesn't mess with Rosa's BG levels too much. There'll be something out there - I just need to find it! I'm just not sure I can go the home-cooked route...not with all their different needs and how picky they can be - I can just see me spending hours trying to figure out what to give them only to find none of them will eat it. We do allow Shadow the high protein - I've read both sides of the argument, but her last blood work while she was on the Friskies was better than ever, so I don't think the protein's doing her any harm at least for the moment. If her blood work starts to suffer, then I might have to rethink that too of course! And I agree - we really have no option but to get all the information we can as we're certainly not going to get it by taking advice from the food companies...especially the ones who also sell prescription diets!! :rolleyes: It probably would drive me insane, except that I know there are some things I just can't fix - like only being able to get fish flavor Special Diet today - I'll adjust for it somewhere else and figure it out somehow to do the best I can for all of them. :)

Your allergies sound very similar to Michael's - his main ones are cats, pretty much everything outside at this time of year and dust mites. It does make it difficult - some days we can't tell if it's the cats causing the problem or the air circulation from outside when we have a window open! I think I'll try getting one of those window units from Home Depot - thank you for the suggestion. :) Anything that makes it all a bit easier can only be a good thing. :)

And yes, having struggled to get Rosa to give up her dry food, the thought of switching her off a wet food that she actually likes makes me a bit nervous, but I think I'll just try buying small amounts of anything that's suitable for both her and Shadow and seeing if there's something she'll take to without too much of a fuss. It will be easier if I could find something that she just likes immediately, but if not then I do have a little more time to transition her to something else if necessary before I run out of the Special Diet completely. :)
 
Have you tried any freeze dried raw food. My ex-cat would only eat kibble (and green beans... Go figure) then finally got her to eat some canned or mostly canned but she was never really thrilled by it and would go on hunger strikes. She just started with Primal freeze dried raw turkey (rehydrated) and now she cleans her plate and begs for more. If you can get in canada, it might be worth a try. They had samples at the pet store.
 
manxcat419 said:
Well, I just cleaned out our local area of all the Special Diet food I could find - unfortunately most of what was left on the shelves was the Ocean Whitefish flavor which probably means they're going to get a bit too much fish for now but there's only so much I can do. They do get the regular pates as well, so I guess for now they won't get any of the fish flavors of those ones to compensate for having to feed the Special Diet fish. And I'm going to have to experiment a bit and see if there's something else that they all find acceptable, that's low phosphorus and that doesn't mess with Rosa's BG levels too much. There'll be something out there - I just need to find it! I'm just not sure I can go the home-cooked route...not with all their different needs and how picky they can be - I can just see me spending hours trying to figure out what to give them only to find none of them will eat it. We do allow Shadow the high protein - I've read both sides of the argument, but her last blood work while she was on the Friskies was better than ever, so I don't think the protein's doing her any harm at least for the moment. If her blood work starts to suffer, then I might have to rethink that too of course! And I agree - we really have no option but to get all the information we can as we're certainly not going to get it by taking advice from the food companies...especially the ones who also sell prescription diets!! :rolleyes: It probably would drive me insane, except that I know there are some things I just can't fix - like only being able to get fish flavor Special Diet today - I'll adjust for it somewhere else and figure it out somehow to do the best I can for all of them. :)

Your allergies sound very similar to Michael's - his main ones are cats, pretty much everything outside at this time of year and dust mites. It does make it difficult - some days we can't tell if it's the cats causing the problem or the air circulation from outside when we have a window open! I think I'll try getting one of those window units from Home Depot - thank you for the suggestion. :) Anything that makes it all a bit easier can only be a good thing. :)

And yes, having struggled to get Rosa to give up her dry food, the thought of switching her off a wet food that she actually likes makes me a bit nervous, but I think I'll just try buying small amounts of anything that's suitable for both her and Shadow and seeing if there's something she'll take to without too much of a fuss. It will be easier if I could find something that she just likes immediately, but if not then I do have a little more time to transition her to something else if necessary before I run out of the Special Diet completely. :)
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Manxcat..I really wouldn't worry too much about the protein. What I found with Copper (my CKD kitty) was that it was the phosphorous levels that were the issues with his numbers going up. I think if you can find a low carb (for Rosa) and a low phosphorous for Shadow, you'll be doing good for both of them. It's SO danged hard, isn't it...especially, when there's picky-ness in the mix and the companies that produce the foods that they love and will eat and CAN eat....just STOP producing that food. :mad: :woot: It leaves us scrambling.

I stayed off the boards yesterday to do some research into foods myself and make calls to food producers, the Canadian government, border crossings etc.. I was SO irritated that Mars, the producers of EVO had totally stopped selling to Canada. Another Canadian member here and I have been doing battle, trying to get these foods up here and it's been a no-go. For those of us who have the Kibble Addicts, we're stuck with only the prescription formulas which our cats don't like much but, try taking it away and they won't eat at all and run into trouble in other ways. I hounded EVO over their Facebook wall for 2 days before I finally got someone to answer me from the company. (I really did make them look pretty bad in my questions). Apparently, while we thought it was the Canadian government who was preventing them from selling up here, it was the manufacturer (Mars) that decided their profits weren't big enough. Oh, I was fuming! No one will ship it up here either without a tremendous shipping charge. On top of that, in order to get it by driving across the border, there is red tape for us as well that has to be looked through and red tape cut/loop holes found to get around.

So, yesterday (ok you can laugh!)...I spent the rest of the day and evening, making home made kibble (like others have tried). I went through 5 cans of food trying this! I finally came up with what I thought was the "perfect solution/recipe". Since it seems to be more of a texture thing for Morrigan, I ground kibble into powder (very small amount), 2 3 oz cans of approved low carb foods, 1/2 an egg beaten and mixed to a dough-like texture, adding some FortiFlora for flavouring. Then, I piped it onto a very lightly oiled baking sheet and watched it carefully, baking it at 450 degrees for about 5 minutes, turning it half way through. :confused: I was so proud of myself as the egg held the mixture together and it looked like kibble with a bit of a soft centre but, crunchy and within the carb content (from my estimates about 10% or so at most).

The house STUNK! :woot:

The kitchen looked like a bomb hit it and was so hot that I was dripping. :eek:

And......

Morrigan walked away from it!!! :rolleyes: :mad:

I spent the rest of the night cleaning dishes and the kitchen, opening windows, sneezing from allergies with the open windows and lighting scented candles to get the "liver type" odour from the house.

You don't want to know what I called pet food manufacturers!!!! It would have made a drunken sailor in a bar, blush! :woot:

So...back to the drawing board for me too!
 
Welcome to my world! Your recipe sounds much like the concoction I tried putting together. You have my sympathies for the stench! You did however have the advantage of opening a window without having to put on long johns! I did my experiment in the dead of winter.. fool that I am!:woot::woot:

I bought more canned food and will try the dehydrator this weekend. I'll let you know about the "perfume" it creates and whether it gets the thumbs up or down by the end of the weekend!

The lengths we go to for our sugar babies eh??:rolleyes:
 
Louellen said:
Manxcat..I really wouldn't worry too much about the protein. What I found with Copper (my CKD kitty) was that it was the phosphorous levels that were the issues with his numbers going up. I think if you can find a low carb (for Rosa) and a low phosphorous for Shadow, you'll be doing good for both of them. It's SO danged hard, isn't it...especially, when there's picky-ness in the mix and the companies that produce the foods that they love and will eat and CAN eat....just STOP producing that food. :mad: :woot: It leaves us scrambling.
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Thank you SO MUCH for the reassurance Louellen - you have no idea how much that helps me not to worry so much about what I'm doing with their food. :) :bighug: I do think it's also the phosphorus with Shadow - her blood work has been great so far on the high protein food and, although I know that if she ever gets to Stage 4 CKD the protein might be an issue at that point, I'm trying not to worry about that too much unless it looks like that's the direction she's heading in (so far she's been fairly stable at Stage 2/3 for about 3 years, so we're hoping we won't see a problem with that just yet)!!

Interesting news about the EVO food. It really is exceptionally irritating that the whole thing has been a commercial decision, though if it isn't the government then even with red tape I suppose it does leave the possibility open of bringing the food over the border at some point. I know all these companies have to make a profit, but with companies as big as Mars and Nestle Purina, I don't really think their profit margins are going to suffer all that much by making a few things available that aren't on their top-selling list.

I have to admit the experiment with cooking the cat food sounds as though it must have been horrible for you - I can only imagine how bad baked cat food must smell (I never dared try it myself for fear of having to leave the house for the rest of the day)!! And how typical that after all that time and effort (not to mention the discomfort for you) of making special food for Morrigan, that she'd just sniff it and walk away. :rolleyes: :cat: I'm not sure they ever really do appreciate the effort we put in to keeping them healthy - no doubt they think it's exactly what they're due from their human slaves!! ;)
 
@manxcat419 and @MrWorfMen's Mom...

They say we want a revolution...ohhh...ohhh.... (I can hear John Lennon in my head right now).

What do you both say that the 3 of us, lobby for better quality pet foods for special needs kitties and dogs? Really...what would it take for pet food manufacturers to stop loading their foods with fillers, crap, phosphorous and get a proper balance? I mean...they should know that the reason why pets are getting sick is because their pockets are lined with green because they are getting away with doing this type of thing while making our pets sick!

No one would begrudge a company turning a profit but, they need to wake up to the fact that they're causing a whole lot of distress in those of us who love our pets so much that we're resorting to practically needing to form our own food manufacturing companies! And, somehow...bit companies like Hills, Purina and Royal Canin need to be exposed for the garbage that they really are and that there's nothing prescriptive (as Pierson DVM would say) in their foods! As a matter of fact...it's making pets ILL!

Our newest vet said to us...."Morrigan's fur looks dull and life-less...she's lacking something in her diet. Now, if you'd switch her over to Hills Science Diet (blah, blah formulation), she'd be much better off!" I stopped, looked at him and said, "Really? So...she's not getting proper nutrition in her food?" He nodded a "no" and pulled out a bag of Hills to show me how perfect it was. I asked again..."Really...that's what the answer is to her lack of a good coat and missing nutrition?" He nodded, "yes".

I hesitated for a moment, letting him hold that freakin' bag up in the air at me and said,
"Uhhhh....well then....the fact that she's been ON THIS EXACT FORMULA for her entire life thus far already, means....Hills is doing our pets in!"

He didn't know what to say! He turned red in the face and his bald, shaved head turned purple before he put the bag down and sent us out to pay his bill!
 
Louellen said:
What do you both say that the 3 of us, lobby for better quality pet foods for special needs kitties and dogs? Really...what would it take for pet food manufacturers to stop loading their foods with fillers, crap, phosphorous and get a proper balance? I mean...they should know that the reason why pets are getting sick is because their pockets are lined with green because they are getting away with doing this type of thing while making our pets sick!
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I think we should - I really do. I couldn't agree with you more - making our pets sick for the sake of lining their own pockets further really is a disgrace. If they're that worried about profit margins, I'd be happier to pay a few cents extra for things like the Friskies Special Diet, or the EVO dry to have the option available to choose a better food. I know there's the argument that a lot of cats and dogs do really well their whole lives on lower quality food, and that's fine - no-one's asking them to take that choice away - but for those of us who NEED an affordable, healthy option for our special needs pets, having options removed especially when we're not given any warning about it isn't just an inconvenience. It really can make the difference between us being able to keep our pets healthy and possibly losing them years earlier than we needed to.

Louellen said:
Our newest vet said to us...."Morrigan's fur looks dull and life-less...she's lacking something in her diet. Now, if you'd switch her over to Hills Science Diet (blah, blah formulation), she'd be much better off!" I stopped, looked at him and said, "Really? So...she's not getting proper nutrition in her food?" He nodded a "no" and pulled out a bag of Hills to show me how perfect it was. I asked again..."Really...that's what the answer is to her lack of a good coat and missing nutrition?" He nodded, "yes".

I hesitated for a moment, letting him hold that freakin' bag up in the air at me and said,
"Uhhhh....well then....the fact that she's been ON THIS EXACT FORMULA for her entire life thus far already, means....Hills is doing our pets in!"

He didn't know what to say! He turned red in the face and his bald, shaved head turned purple before he put the bag down and sent us out to pay his bill!
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I think that just proves the point that vets are falling for the hard sell from companies like Hills, Purina and RC (and I firmly believe all 3 companies need stopping - vet approved, as far as I can tell, means nothing except that they've got a lot of vets to fall for their marketing). My old vet in the UK had me put my cats on Hills dry from day 1 - first the kitten food, then the adult formula. OK, those 2 aren't prescription only but they're a lot more expensive than they need to be just the same. And of course I assumed he knew best (this was 12 years ago before I had any thoughts about needing to question the vet's opinion). Then they had me switch them to RC Urinary S/O dry - that was for Rosa, but I ended up feeding it to both of them so they could eat together as they always had. My current vet wanted us to use prescription foods only for both Shadow and Rosa. We had Shadow on prescription food for a while, though we did vary it between the 3 manufacturers as she'd never eat any of the foods for more than a few weeks (and would barely pick at them even then). And the worst of it is that if we'd only known better at the time, she's getting BETTER blood work results on the Friskies Special Diet (the standard supermarket-available brands were the ONE THING I was told NEVER to feed my cats by both vets as they claimed they're no good for them). Regan's on-again, off-again over-grooming has stopped, Rosa's BG is under control and their fur looks so much healthier and shinier - all on food that I was told was poor quality and not to be fed!
 
I can assure you that the research being done by vets themselves is totally flawed. The vet dental specialist I took my civie Worf to see, asked about his diet. When I told her he ate Fancy Feast Turkey and Giblets pate, her comment was that they have been tracking diets and Fancy Feast seemed to be a common factor in dental disease in cats and to boot came in on their survey as almost the worst. When I asked if she meant specifically the pate given FF makes a lot of food I would NOT give my cats, she said they had not drilled down to actual variety. o_O:arghh:I had 2 cats that ate the FF Turkey & Giblets their whole lives, never needed any dental work and lived to 16.5 and 17 yrs old. I also have a 17 yr. now who has eaten that food his entire life along with Whiskas kibble, another dental offender per the dental specialist (Whiskas was my Mom's choice not mine) and he has never needed any dental work either. She tried to convince me that my 3 yr old cat with feral origins had dental problems because of his diet. She didn't do thorough research and I let her know it!:mad:

So is it any wonder that the vets are swayed by the marketing tactics of the big pet food companies! Their research is not being done well. Even my vet (and I thank my lucky stars for her 99.99% of the time) tried to tell me that the vet formulas are more consistent than the commercial brands. Really??? Then why does their packaging only list minimums and maximums like all the commercial stuff if their formulas are so much more precise?

My vet was quite impressed that I had found foods lower in carbs than anything she could offer (EVO and YOUNG AGAIN) and is now upset that EVO has gone and YA may soon not be available either. She has offered to go to bat with us about the new Canadian pet food import regulations (:bighug: to her) but most vets are brainwashed by the marketing and all they see are the $ signs with the mark up they charge on the RX foods.
 
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