Low numbers

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Kimmer

Kimmer

Member Since 2019
Finnegan just came back from vets with 66 as glucose number. He is eating now but was a bit wobbly in his feet. Back legs didn’t seem to work quite right. Couldn’t easily jump in chair. She said no shot tonight for him and we are cutting dose to 1 unit Saturday through Sunday. He was taking 200 mcg chromium per vets advice. That has been stopped. I am worried about him. But he was just at vets!
 
He had a shot at 5:45 am. EST. 2 units. He was at vets entire day for glucose curve. He was in the 40s this morning and got to 66 at last test. Lantus is his insulin. He’s eating again and seems ok. It was just so scary to see his back legs not work. Of course, they are working now. He couldn’t jump up in a chair before and now just hips up.
 
I cannot stay with you online.

Your cat has been in or near hypo territory twice today. It is very important that you read these threads: Hypo link and Hypo Toolbox

Do not be complacent just because he's eaten and can now jump. Lantus can last longer than 12 hours. Please continue to test until you have two rising numbers twenty minutes apart without benefit of food. I'd suggest take another test now.

Readings of 40 and 66 are too low for a newly diagnosed cat. Did you get the result of the curve from the vet? And is this the specialist or his regular vet? How much or how little did he eat while at the vet?

Something important to help us help you is a spreadsheet. Instructions are here
The template is here
If you have difficulty setting one up, we have spreadsheet gurus who can help.
 
I'm sorry you had a scare with Finnegan and hope that all is well now. I saw that 911 and like most of us, my heart started beating a little faster. That happens when we see that red icon here. Whew.

Then I noticed that FurBabiesMama had to ask when the last insulin shot was and what kind of insulin.

Please create a signature and set up a spreadsheet so we can see the information about Finnegan each time you post. Especially in what might be an emergency situation, it's very helpful to have that information right there in front of us. You might be preoccupied with a hypo intervention with food or extra sugar and not be able to answer questions immediately about his past insulin or BG testing history.

Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.

Another thing that will help us help you is to set up a spreadsheet like the one we use here. You will see how the trends and patterns emerge, and members can review his progress before offering suggestions or advice:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

If you need help with the spreadsheet set up, let us know. There are members who can set it up very quickly for you.

Best wishes, and give Finnegan a soft head kiss and a hug. :cat:
 
Okay. It has been a long time since his shot, and it sounds like he is on the rise at this point. So, could you please remove the '911'?

Well, I guess it was obvious today that the dose was too high. I'm glad to hear it is being reduced. Are you home testing yet? It is really important to keep them safe.

UPDATED: I posted this near the same time as Red's post. Just read it. Don't let what I said keep you from taking Red's advice if you are home testing. It's always better to be safe than sorry.
 
Can you let us know if you are home testing? And, if so, have you tested him at all since you got home from the vet?
 
I just got a kit today to test him. Haven’t done so...the thought of making him bleed is too much so my husband will try instead. Everyone here seems to know so much, testing, spreadsheets and dosages, and I don’t know it at all. I feel so very lost and not knowing how to take care of Finnegan at all.

He was at the vets all day and she knew his numbers were low. She said he was fine to come home and other than no shot, not to do anything different. She said to watch for wobbling legs or lethargy or seizures. His ears are tender from all day testing: every hour.

I am just watching him like a hawk.
 
I'm glad you got back online. We all felt lost and not knowing how to do much either, but we learned right here with help from the information we read and the support of the other members.

Please create the signature so we can see what insulin, food etc. We need to know this stuff. You can learn to test, we all did. It took some of us longer than others to be successful, but it's the best way to keep Finnegan safe and know when you need to know what his blood sugar level is.

Chris & China (GA) wrote this to help members (and kitties) get used to testing:

Here's something I wrote up for others for testing...maybe it'll help you too!

It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing. Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you.

Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well

For new kitties, using a heavier gauge lancet is also really helpful. A 25-28 gauge lancet pokes a bigger "hole" than a 31-33 gauge lancet does, so look for "Alternate Site testing" lancets that are usually a lower number

Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too! Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!

You and hubby can watch how to test:
By JanetNJ : How to test your cat's bg at home: Video I made showing how to test your cat's blood sugar
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

The best way to get over your anxiety about what to do with Finnegan, how to keep him safe and as healthy as possible is to read the information about the insulin you are using, learn to test and in this way you will gain the knowledge and confidence you feel you lack right now. Not very many of us arrived with much more information than you did, we just knew our cats were diabetic.

Please continue to post, even daily, and let us know how to help you further.

Oh, and please tell us what the curve results were that the vet did today from the paperwork you got.
 
Kimmer said:
Everyone here seems to know so much, testing, spreadsheets and dosages, and I don’t know it at all. I feel so very lost and not knowing how to take care of Finnegan at all.
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None of us knew anything when our cats were diagnosed or when we got here, and we pay it forward by helping others keep their cats safe.
@Idjit's mom has given you good information about testing. JanetNJ's video is very good. Her vet uses the video to show other clients how to test.

Kimmer said:
He was at the vets all day and she knew his numbers were low. She said he was fine to come home and other than no shot, not to do anything different. She said to watch for wobbling legs or lethargy or seizures. His ears are tender from all day testing: every hour.
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Your vet should not have sent a cat with low numbers home. The curve should have been stopped at the first sight of low numbers.

Neosporin with pain relief can help with the ears.
 
seconding the motion -- did not know what I was doing at first, was confused, frightened, upset, squeamish at first, until I convinced myself that I was saving his life

I remind myself of that often -- it gets easier -- because of things in my past, it will never be EASY, but I can deal with it now

you will too :) :bighug: :smuggrin:
 
@Sienne and Gabby (GA)
@MrWorfMen's Mom

Kimmer brought Finnegan home from vet curve with low numbers and last BG of 66 on AlphaTrak. She (Vet) said no shot tonight for him and we are cutting dose to 1 unit Saturday through Sunday.

Why only decrease dose to 1 Unit for two days, and not know what the BG is?

Kimmer, I hope you are going to be testing him before you give any insulin injection, his BG might be too low to inject and you don't want to force it lower.

Please read this information:

New? Seeing Low Numbers? How You Can Help Us Help You

You are using a pet meter to test the blood sugar, the "take action" number for a pet meter is 68, different from the 50 in that document here that is for BG on a human meter:
NEVER give insulin when your kitty’s BG level is under 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L).
 
Two units of Lantus is too high a dose for Finnegan. No wonder he was showing low numbers today.

The "take action" number on an AlphaTrak is 68.

Please do start testing. It is very possible that your cat was experiencing symptomatic hypo symptoms earlier today. The only way to keep your cat safe is to test and to dose judging by the nadir (lowest) part of the cycle, and not the pre-shot number. It is strongly recommended for newbies not to shoot if under the preshot number is under 150. After a hypo experience, many cats are insulin sensitive.

Please put together together a hypo toolbox to have on hand. Also print off the hypo instructions and put them in the box.

There are people from all over the globe willing to help here 24/7, though it can get a little quiet in the wee hours of the night.
 
BG in the 40s on the AT2 are extremely dangerous and his leg weakness could be an ongoing symptom of having had a true symptomatic hypo event while at the vet. I would strongly suggest you learn how to test and NOT give any insulin until you are able to check Finnegan's BG to know it's safe to give him insulin. Lantus is a depot insulin which means there is still insulin in his system and it's still at play. Even 1u may be too much for Finnegan but without testing you don't know. Hypos can be fatal so caution is of the utmost importance right now.
 
Kimmer said:
I just got a kit today to test him. Haven’t done so...the thought of making him bleed is too much so my husband will try instead. Everyone here seems to know so much, testing, spreadsheets and dosages, and I don’t know it at all. I feel so very lost and not knowing how to take care of Finnegan at all.

He was at the vets all day and she knew his numbers were low. She said he was fine to come home and other than no shot, not to do anything different. She said to watch for wobbling legs or lethargy or seizures. His ears are tender from all day testing: every hour.

I am just watching him like a hawk.
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Okay, what I say here may sound a little blunt or even mean (which I do not intend), but I feel that I have to say it. You are feeling overwhelmed and are being hit with a lot of info, so I am going to be very direct to try and put this in perspective. You are going to have to get over the whole "the thought of making him bleed is too much" thing. Causing a TINY little drop of blood on his ear so you can test it is a whole lot better than letting him be dangerously low and not knowing it until there are visible symptoms. Next time, it might not be just wobbly legs. How would you feel watching him have a seizure? Or worse, what if it was such a severe situation that you lost him? Compared to that, causing a tiny drop of blood is nothing.

You need to understand how serious this is. You need to be testing before every insulin shot to make sure it is even safe to give the insulin and getting in mid-cycle tests when you can so you can see the impact the insulin is having. Use the tips that have been shared with you, they have come from real life experiences. And, read the info on hypos that has been shared. When there are visible symptoms, it is already to a bad point and action needs to be taken. If you see symptoms and 'just keep watching him like a hawk', you may miss a chance to save him. Believe it or not, testing actually reduces stress - wouldn't you rather know what's going on with your cat's glucose rather than always be wondering if he is going to start showing symptoms? When you test, you find out if he is going low and have a chance to intervene BEFORE it ever gets into the dangerous territory of visible symptoms.

None of us knew anything about this when we started. We jumped in and learned what we had to learn to do what we have to do. We were overwhelmed and scared, too. I sure didn't want to stick needles in my cat. The first few times I tested her, it was very stressful for us both, but in a very short time, it became SO much easier. Now, it is nothing. Mia goes to her testing spot (in her cat tower) on her own and holds her little ear toward me for me to do the test, then as soon as I finish she eats her treat and jumps back down to go on with her little life. I had a vet tell me that testing would 'damage the animal-human bond'. That was a total lie (not that the vet meant to lie, but she spoke out of completely ignorance). The exact opposite has happened. Mia is even more of a mama's girl than she was before all of this. The bond gets tighter, I assure you, ask anyone here who has been doing this awhile.

Unfortunately, most vets know very little about feline diabetes (or feline nutrition). That is one of the most frustrating things when first dealing with this. You think you should be able to trust your vet, right? Well, the more you learn for yourself about feline diabetes, the more you may come to see that your vet is not an expert. You have to take an active role in managing this for your baby. You have to learn enough to know when the vet's advice or actions are not what is best. During the curve, when the vet saw that the glucose was in the 40s, what was done? Did they intervene at all such as by giving some food? That is a pretty scary number on an AlphaTrak, something should have been done to steer the numbers up some for safety.

You can do this. Take a deep breath and do some reading. Knowledge is power! This site is such a valuable resource. There are people who have been living this for years and who freely give of themselves to help others.
 
Being overwhelmed is perfectly normal at this stage of your FD journey. Please don't compare yourself to members that have been here a while. I've been on the Board for 10 years (I know -- it surprises me, too!) You learn a great deal of information about diabetes -- for some, it's because they start reading about the topic, have access to research and/or medical and veterinary journals, or for others, because we force feed the information.

I want to offer a lightly different perspective. If Finnegan were a diabetic human child and your pediatrician told you that the only way to keep your baby safe was to get blood tests throughout the day, would you avoid testing because your child might bleed too much? I suspect not. There is a member whose story is on the Facebook page who didn't home test. Well, she didn't until her cat had a very serious hypoglycemic event that left him with some (fortunately) minor neurological deficits. She is now the poster mom for home testing. We truly take the safety of your cat to heart. The only way that you can keep Finnegan safe is to know what his numbers look like. For people like myself, I will not provide guidance regarding dosing without a spreadsheet that has adequate test data. I do not want to be responsible for dispensing information that could harm your kitty.

FWIW, the ICU vet never taught me how to even give a shot. (I speak fluent medicalese so he assumed I knew more than I did.) I. learned how to give an injection and how to home test by watching YouTube videos. (This was before we had videos on the Board.) As others have said, you can do this.
 
one more thought -- it's rather normal for cats' ears to bleed -- put two cats together who aren't bonded friends, and one of them will probably clobber the other, often scratching an ear -- or they'll clobber each other

unlike little kids, they'll think very little, if anything, of this -- it's cat normal (not human normal) --

also, it's all of ONE drop, or maybe three if you happen to hit a vein .. no more than you would get if you happened to brush against a rose thorn -- cat will sense your tenseness and may well pull a diva act .. after all cats crave attention ..

it's NOT like a human getting a pad-of-the-finger stick -- which does hurt and throb for awhile -- cat feels the prick, complains momentarily, then gets back to whatever the cat was doing beforehand .. especially if there's suddenly a treat in front, teasing their scent glands
 
Ok. Here’s what happened today. Finnegan got 200 mcg of chromium this morning, which he wasn’t supposed to because vet thought it was what was making BG so low. My husband just forgot. So no shot this morning because even with a test, we didn’t know how insulin would react with chromium and possibly making him drop.

Just tested him with meter before eating at 5:30 pm. He was at 72. And I was singing because someone said to do so. It helped!!! My husband was great and Finnegan did flinch a bit but was ok with treat. So no shot again tonight. We don’t know what’s going on, but will test again tomorrow morning to see how he is doing. If he keeps in this range, then no shot again.

Does this sound like a plan? We are just trying to figure this out as we go. Today Finnegan was like a kitten. He was playing, following us around, talking, just a completely different cat. Energy level up.

Thanks to everyone for their advice. Please know that no matter how much I say I am afraid to do something, I would risk my life to take care of my cats. They are my family. I am strong for them and because of them.

Will work on a chart if needed. Writing it down in book provided. Will contact internist in Monday if numbers stay normal.
 
I just posted a long story. Please let me know what you think. I am just at a loss right now as to what’s happening.
 
Kimmer said:
Will work on a chart if needed. Writing it down in book provided.
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Please do set up the spreadsheet so we can see "graphically" how the testing presents. If you find it difficult or confusing, we have members that can set it up for you, then all you have to do is plug in the information. If you are working from a phone the screen is pretty small and set up might be difficult. I was working from a Kindle Fire tablet and it doesn't play nicely with Google, so a member set it up for me, and I was able to enter the insulin and testing data on my phone. Please fill in all the data you have, so we can see the whole picture to date.

I am very glad to hear that you are willing to go the distance for Finnegan. I remember very well how frightened I was on diagnosis, wondering if two old duffers could manage diabetic treatment for Idjit. Well, we did, after bumbling around a bit, but we did!
 
A reading of 72 on the AT2 meter is totally and beautifully low normal. As Idjit's Mom says, it would be really helpful if you would set up a spreadsheet so we can follow what Finnegan has been and is up to going forward. If you need assistance to set up a spreadsheet, please PM me by clicking on my avatar and clicking on "Start Conversation" and just say you need help with the spreadsheet. We can get you set up and ready to track Finnegan's BG in short order.
 
He said Finnegan was an outlier. He hadn’t seen juvenile diabetes in too many cats. He said Finnegan would probably always need insulin. But that the chromium could “reset” his body to do what it needed to do normally with insulin production. Some research has shown it to significantly lower glucose numbers. He also said having him fixed would help lower numbers. We are just at a loss as to what’s going on with him but will take those numbers without insulin being administered. We just don’t know if the chromium is making his norms low or if it is keeping his numbers down. But he started at 40 on Friday morning and got up to 66 when I picked him up. He was not acting good at 66. But 73 seems to be fine! He was running around like a banshee in the hall!

Thank you so much for your concern and advice. Those site has been life lifeline. You are all the best!!!
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
Tagging @Marje and Gracie and @Wendy&Neko about the chromium.

Fantastic that you are testing. And Finnegan's numbers are fantastic.

In your introductory post, you mentioned juvenile diabetes? What did the internal med vet have to say about it?
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There are various studies on using chromium in diabetic cats to lower the BG and the results have varied quite a bit from some authors stating it does and others stating it has no effect. I gave chromium, vanadium, and gymnema to my Gracie but none of them affected or lowered her BG. That’s not to say it doesn’t work for Finnegan but there’s just not enough large scale studies to conclude that it does.
 
Yes, I saw mixed reviews on chromium research as well. Vet said it probably wouldn’t help but couldn’t hurt. He did say it was on an individual case, that some responded better than others. We just are trying to figure out why his numbers have suddenly become normal without insulin injections.
 
Hello and welome. Not sure why I was tagged about chromium, I know nothing about it.

I hope your kitty continues in normal numbers.
 
Probably because I know as much about how to use this forum as I know about my cat and diabet
 
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