Low Carb but gives high sugar. Why?

Status
Not open for further replies.
But my Barsa is all bones :( you are saying she will lose weight on low-carb? But she will die if she loses more :( She's so weak now. She badly needs to gain weight. 4kg was scary. Now I'll be happy if she's back to these 4kg. I think I'm going crazy with worry here.. Diabetes, very low weight plus possible pancreatitis.

This is what I'm going to do now. 2 units Caninsulin twice per day, low-carb food 3 times per day - morning, 4h after shot and evening, about 300g in total. Yes or no to that? And to sum it up, low-carb if I understood it all well is still better for gaining weight and lowering BG than high-fiber Hills WD. Correct?
 
test
feed about 2/3 of her food
shoot
about 2-3 hours later, feed the other 1/3.

Repeat at 12 hour increments.

Increase the food quantity before dividing into thirds.
If you can, find a low carb kitten food - higher protein and fat for growth helps put on weight.

Re-feeding for weight gain after starvation from any cause is done with frequent, modest meals, so as not to overload the digestive tract's ability to process and absorb nutrients and cause vomiting or diarrhea.
 
Regarding the weight gain, some of us have found it helpful to increase the fat content of the cat's diet (by adding in some chopped chicken skin, an egg yolk, or a little duck fat or coconut oil.) (But this might not be suitable if a cat has a definite dx of pancreatitis.)

There are some low carb kitten foods you could try too (I often feed kitten food to my old cats anyway!): Grau kitten (from Zooplus), Lily's Kitchen kitten (various places online), and Nature's Menu kitten (various places online) are ones that spring to mind. The Grau kitten food contains some carrot but I've never found that this affects Bertie's blood glucose adversely.

I also give any cats of mine that are unwell Liquivite to drink. It's a complete liquid cat food, seems very palatable, and also contains a probiotic to aid digestion. It's available from a number of places online. You can read about it here: http://www.medicanimal.com/product/~product_id=562

You're doing just fine, Iryna. :smile:

Eliz
 
BJM gave you a good feeding plan. I concur with what she said.

This is what I'm going to do now. 2 units Caninsulin twice per day, low-carb food 3 times per day - morning, 4h after shot and evening, about 300g in total. Yes or no to that?
Click to expand...

At this point, I would not limit the food intake for Barsa to 300 grams (roughly 10 ounces) of food a day. I think that amount of food is the absolute minimum she needs to eat each and every day, and is likely to need more food with more calories to help her gain weight.

She may even need 350 or 400 or more grams to help her gain back some weight.

That means, you need to feed more frequently.

Could you add a 4th meal, just before you go to bed, or leave some food out overnight for her to snack on?

And to sum it up, low-carb if I understood it all well is still better for gaining weight and lowering BG than high-fiber Hills WD. Correct?
Click to expand...
Yes, the low carb food is better for lowering the BG levels. The W/d is meant to be fed to cats that are obese and need to lose weight. The high fiber content makes the cat feel fuller and in combination with the decreased calorie content and portion control will help a cat to lose weight. Since Barsa needs to gain weight, this is absolutely the wrong food to be feeding her.

Depending on which wet food you feed, there should be more calories in it than the Hill's W/d which contains 280 calories per cup.

The Grau Kitten Menu grain free Beef Duck & Poultry that Elizabeth recommended has 114 calories per 100 grams. So 300 grams would be 342 calories. Non kitten Grau gain free foods contain a few calories less, around 103-105 per 100 grams, so that would be 309-315 calories for 300 grams of food.
 
Vintry said:
OK, I am buying this Liquivite. Sounds good.
Click to expand...

Many cats do find Liquivite tasty. It's like a thick creamy chicken soup. And a dish of it can be warmed in the microwave for a couple of seconds too which can increase the appeal for some cats.

There is a lot of it in a can, but it can be frozen in ice cube trays and thawed as necessary. It may look a little curdled after freezing and thawing, but that can be fixed with a quick stir (and the cats don't seem to mind the curdled look anyway!).

Eliz
 
Hi Vintry,
The aloe vera juice I give Bailey is PUKKA ORGANIC ALOE VERA JUICE
I did a lot of research to make sure it was safe,so this is what I found out,it MUST be made from only the inner leaf gel (the outer rind is toxic for cats) it must be free from synthetic preservatives and MUST NOT contain potassium sorbate or sodium benzoate.I buy it at a local health shop,if you cannot find it locally google and there are on line places to do mail order.
I give Bailey 1 teaspoon twice daily,it has worked for Bailes,I had him at the vet this morning and he agreed his stomach feels less swollen,he has been on it now for over three months.
Hope this is of use,let me know if it helps. Diane
 
Forgot to mention,if you decide to try Barsa on aloa vera,I started Bailey on 1 teaspoon daily for the first week to make sure he had no adverse reaction to it,then I increased the dose.also says on bottle keep in fridge and use within 2 weeks,as long as it is kept in fridge I have found it is OK for 4 weeks.
 
Thank you Diane!

From body condition scoring chart my baby is probably 1 and she is fluffy so you can imagine how thin she looks, even with so much fur I'd say she's 1.

I took Barsa to a new vet. To my surprise he supports a low-carb diet :) Barsa had a very high temperature, 40.4. He gave her something anti-inflammatory and prescribed antibiotics. Also did a blood test to find out if she has pancreatitis, it looks like she does. She is feeling a little bit better today but still bad. Her appetite is also worse today, couldn't make her eat her usual daily portion today. I pray she eats tomorrow but if she's inflamed then yeah, it can't be easy. I will keep you updated. Thank you for supporting me. Your advice is invaluable, don't know where else I could get so much information. I will try not to post so much here as other people on this forum need help too of course, sorry. I just didn't know whom else to ask about all this.
 
Oh, Iryna, I'm sorry to hear that Barsa may have pancreatitis.
Vintry said:
... I will try not to post so much here as other people on this forum need help too of course, sorry. I just didn't know whom else to ask about all this.
Click to expand...
Iryna, please do post as often as you want to or need to. There is almost always someone around to help, or even just to chat to. You are a part of this FDMB family now and we are all here for each other. :smile:

Eliz
 
You may find this Primer on Pancreatitis helpful. One important note: pancreatitis is painful, so some sort of pain med can be helpful in getting the cat to eat, etc.

You can add about 20-25% plain meat, poultry, or fish to the canned food, then portion out regular amounts. This will increase the protein, decrease the fat and slightly decrease the carbohydrate. Again, go with frequent smaller meals. If necessary, use an oral syringe and do assisted feeding.

ETA; use cooked if adding to canned food; raw if adding to raw.
 
It seems because of antibiotics the temperature goes down but after the food it goes up again and she doesn't feel good, ears and nose all hot, she just spends the day trying to sleep. And she eats less because of the inflammation. I can't make her eat most of the canned low-carb food, even different brands. The only one she will eat (more or less) is Bozita chunks in jelly and only because it reminds her of Felix pouches, they are also in jelly. Could you please have a look at them and let me know what you think. Good or bad? I have the UK spreadsheet of suitable diabetic foods but still..

Felix fish selection in jelly - this is the one she's been eating all her life and if she doesn't eat anything else then I just have to give her this but I really don't want to. Can't find a link for it. From the pack: moisture 82%, protein 8.5%, fat 8.5%, crude ash 2.5%, crude fibres 0.5%. With tuna & cod: meat and animal derivatives, fish and fish derivatives, minerals, VARIOUS SUGARS..

Bozita chinks in jelly, mackerel - http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/bozita/bozita/300455

The new vet recommended Hills MD, he says it's low in carbohydrates - http://www.hillspet.co.uk/en-gb/pro...ription-diet-md-minced-with-liver-canned.html
 
Hi Iryna,

The Hill's MD is not what we at FDMB would call 'low carb'. The third ingredient on the list is maize starch. According to the %'s of ingredients listed (which doesn't seem to include a % for 'ash') my calculation puts it at 17.9% calories from carbohydrates. For a diabetic cat we recommend feeding foods with less than 10% calories from carbs.

The Bozita tetrapacks (Zooplus only give one list of %'s for all the flavours) come out at 5.8% calories from carbs.

The Felix %'s you gave add up to more than 100% so I'm guessing there's an error in there. Have you got the fat % too high, maybe..? I'll see if I can find some figures online. (The Felix is probably fine, as long as it doesn't contain 'vegetable protein extract'. 'Various sugars' could be something as simple as a bit of beet pulp used, apparently, as a stabiliser. I occasionally feed Bertie Felix foil trays (which also contain 'various sugars' as a treat, and it doesn't affect his BG's adversely at all... )

Edited to add:
Yep, found the Felix %'s online and the fat is 4.5% not 8.5%, so the carb content comes out at 9.3%

The most important thing, Iryna, is that your cat eats...

Eliz

Edited to add: The Hills MD also contains soy protein, which some cats have problems with.
 
OK, thank you Elizabeth :)

P.S. Infuriating to read 'Low Carbohydrate' on the can of Hills MD when it's actually NOT (shaking my head)
 
Vintry said:
P.S. Infuriating to read 'Low Carbohydrate' on the can of Hills MD when it's actually NOT (shaking my head)
Click to expand...

You have to put the numbers in perspective.

Well, there are various levels of "low-carb" as you have discovered. Dr. Lisa Pierson's Food chart has a 14% carb content for the canned Hill's M/d is certainly lower than the 25% carb content of the canned Hill's W/d, another of the prescription diets that vets often advise are good for diabetic cats - NOT! Or the 37% carb content of the dry Hill's W/d. ohmygod_smile

Of course, if you've had a cat on one of those vet recommended prescription diet foods, and then find this board, follow the recommendation and switch to true low carb foods, <10% carbs, you often find that your cat's BG levels plummet and may even end up with a diet controlled kitty. Like I did with my Wink.

Here's hoping you get similar success with your kitty Barsa.
 
How about raw chicken breast?? There was this suggestion here to add a little bit of raw chicken meat in canned food. It sounds very good, high protein, no fat. Whenever I take out any raw meat from the fridge to be cooked, my cats circle me and won't leave the kitchen until I feed it to them (I actually have two cats, girls :) and I give it to them, but very tiny piece, just a strip or two. When I was little, I stole a cat. I was out playing with other kids of my age and saw this beautiful cat, all white, looked like turkish angora breed, she was having a stroll under the window. The window was open and a small ladder was placed on it leading to the ground. I took her home, and like a treasure hid her from my parents. But of course they soon found out. I don't know why they didn't force me to return it, I wish they did. Me being a kid I did not think about what her owners would be going through or that she even had owners, no, I was too enchanted with this beautiful cat to be thinking of anything else. So she became our cat. And she lived a long life but died from poisoning. In hindsight someone probably poisoned her, we had bad neighbors, they hated cats so it could have been them. But at that time we just thought it must be raw meat because we fed her that a lot. She loved it. I remember I cried so much because she was dying, my parents told me they had to give her away for good to some vet they knew because he promised to cure her if they do that. That made me feel better and that's why they lied. I found out about it later, when I got older. Always thought about this story as karma. She died because I stole her. And well, now I have two cats but because of this story I am afraid to feed them raw meat. I am probably wrong, but subconsciously I just feel safer not giving them raw meat. But the question of objectivity: how prudent is it to include raw meat in cat's diet? And with Barsa, especially if she has pancreatitis or some kind of digestive tract inflammation (I will find out tomorrow, hopefully), what's better, raw meat or canned food? Barsa will cheat on her beloved Felix with chicken breast, yes.
 
If Barsa gobbles up all her food pretty quickly, adding a bit of raw chicken to the canned food would be fine. I'd only be concerned if you needed to leave it out for a long period of time to get her to eat it. There's always the possibility of salmonella contamination with raw poultry, so just remember your safe handling practices.

Let us know how Barsa likes it.
 
I am now a big fan of raw meat for cats, and include it regularly as a part of my cats' diets. It has been especially helpful for those of my cats who've had sensitive tummies.
If I had the freezer space I would feed them raw food entirely.

Yes, one has to be careful with raw meat. It's important to buy it from a good reliable source and handle/store it carefully. But it is what cats have evolved to eat.
And regarding food poisoning, cats eating canned foods are not safe from that: Mel's current post here is evidence of this...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=115580&p=1216428#p1215895

I understand that ordinary raw meat can comprise up to 20% of the total diet (ie, one meal out of 5) as long as the other foods provide all the necessary vitamins/minerals/calcium etc (which most good quality commercial foods should.)

But meat itself is not a complete food. It's rather like feeding a cat 'fillet of mouse' rather than 'the whole mouse'. A whole mouse is a good balance of flesh meat, organ meat, and bones. So, if raw meat becomes a major part of the diet it needs to replicate the 'whole animal.'
Fortunately that's not difficult. It's now possible to buy complete (usually frozen) raw cat food. Or you can make your own at home by following a reliable recipe. Or, in Europe we can buy a supplement called 'Felini complete' that can be added to plain raw meat (without bones) to make a balanced food.
There are lots of options! :smile:

Eliz
 
OK, some very good tips here. Raw meat, heat up the meal, liquid food, all this works for my cat. My favourite and most effective trick of adding a few cubes of dry food to the wet one doesn't work anymore. She's getting smart or what? Barsa likes Liquivite! http://liquivite.co.uk/about-liquivite It's also low-carb yes? Which online calculator do you use to find out? I found one but it gave me 0%..wonder if that's correct. Also, 5% fat, is that high? What is considered low-fat in percentage terms? I actually need to find something low-fat for my other cat. God, one is malnourished and the other is getting overweight. Never had any problems with my cats but I guess now they are just getting old, they're 9 years and 7 months.
 
In cats:
3.5 calories per gram for protein
3.5 calories per gram for carbohydrate
8.5 calories per gram for fat

So in 100 grams weight, if 5% were from fat, there would be 42.5 (5*8.5) calories from fat.
Then, 42.5/total calories in 100 grams = % calories from fat, which is the number we use.
 
This is the neatest online carb calculator that I know:
https://secure.balanceit.com/tools/_gac ... /index.php

You just enter the % figures for protein, fat, ash, fibre and moisture from the food label, click 'calculate', and the percentage of calories from carbs will appear in the turquoise box on the lower right.

This is the simplest way I know to get a quick estimate for the carb content of any given food.
(Note: It is always an 'estimate' though because the percentages of ingredients listed on the lable may vary a bit from what is actually in the can. In Europe most of our foods show the percentages as a 'typical analysis'. The only way to find out exactly what is in the food at any given time is to contact the manufacturer.)

I'm glad Barsa likes the Liquivite. :smile:
 
Vintry said:
... I actually need to find something low-fat for my other cat. God, one is malnourished and the other is getting overweight.
Click to expand...
Iryna, how overweight is your other cat? A little bit overweight? A lot overweight?

And have you recently changed the cats' diets from higher carb to lower carb? Weight issues in cats are more often due to too much carb in the diet rather than too much fat. Cats' bodies process fats differently to our bodies.
If you've recently switched the cats to lower carb food then your fatter cat may naturally lose the weight over time.
But if you were already feeding lower carb food then you may need to change the cat's diet (reduce the amount of food, or the amount of fat in the food (one way to do that is to add some lean meat to the food to 'dilute' the fat content)).
Encouraging the cat to excercise/play can also help.

Weight loss in cats needs to be done with great care. They must lose weight slowly in order for the weight loss to be safe.

Can I suggest that you start a new thread about your non-diabetic overweight cat (incidentally, we call non-diabetics 'civvies' (civilians!) here). I'm sure there must be some folks here who can help you.

Eliz
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top