Low blood sugar without insulin

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AnnieTime

AnnieTime

Member Since 2013
Hi community!

First of all, I am a newbie from Germany, so sorry for my english :)

2 weeks ago the vet found out my 10 year old cat has diabetes. Glucose was 399, fructosamine was 638. Also he found sugar in my cats urine.
Until yesterday I gave insulin (caninsulin) without testing the blood sugar (1,5 IE).
Yesterday at 6 in the morning I gave 1,5 IE caninsuline. At half past five in the afternoon (half an hour before next dose) I tested blood sugar (for the first time), which was at 59.
I instantly fed cooked chicken and a spoonful of sweetened yoghurt (my cat doesn´t like pure honey). This evening I tested blood sugar two times again, both times it was under 100, so I skipped the next regular dose an kept feeding him as much as he wanted.

Today at 10.30 in the morning I tested blood sugar, which was at 75. So I skipped the regular dose again, and fed him. 4 hours and 2 little feedings later his blood sugar still was at 75. Just tested half an hour ago, blood sugar was at 104.

What is that? If he had diabetes why is his blood sugar that low? Remember, he got his last dose of 1,5 IE yesterday at 6 in the morning. Is it possible that this dose was too much and it has still effect on his blood sugar? I can´t imagine. Wouldn´t his body try to fight against hypoglycaemia by increasing his blood sugar?
I am insecure. Is it possible he has no diabetes and there are other reasons for the high glucose and fructosamine?

Greets, Annie
 
Hello there

Your English is great, don't worry.. Way better than my German!!

Did you change anything after diagnosis? For example did you change his food from dry to wet?

Was there an infection that you are treating? Did anything change at all since the fructosamine test ?


Wendy
 
Guten tag Annie! Wie Gehts?

Was your cat on steroids? That can cause a cat to become diabetic. Stopping the steroids can help get the diabetes under control.

Two weeks is really fast for a cat to get normal blood glucose readings.

Are you using a human glucometer to take the blood glucose readings? Or a pet specific monitor (I-pet, Alphatrak)
 
Hi Wendy,

that was fast..thanks for your answer.

Ok, let me think.

It all began with Horst (my cat´s name) refusing dry food, but he still ate wet food. He was very picky with dry food, so I didn´t think anything wasn´t alright. Then he started refusing wet food and anything he loves (like raw beef). That was the first time I realised he lost weight. Horst (still) is obese, he weighted 10.5 kg :oops: . The vet gave him one dose of antibiotic in case of infection (Horst then weighted "only" 9 kg) He seemed getting better, he ate wet food and raw meat, but 5 days later he started refusing food again.
Because Horst is very aggressive at the vet, he had to be anesthetized to check his blood. (He was still losing weight, now weighting 8,1 kg)

He is still refusing dry food, but he eats "wet" food. Since diagnosis I´m feeding him raw meat (beef,chicken,lamb), tuna in water, cooked chicken. It´s difficult because he is changing his mind within hours. In the morning he is crazy for raw chicken, at the afternoon he looks at me like "Chicken? Are you serious? I want lamb!" and the other way around ;)

So,there´s no significant change except of not eating dry food-but he didn´t ate dry food about 2 weeks before diagnosis.
Because i didn´t test blood sugar the first week of diagnosis I have no clue if blood sugar ever was increased or always was "normal".
 
Hi Deb!

Danke, mir geht es gut. Wie geht es dir? :-D

Last year Horst got pain killer against his osteoarthritis, but it was non-steroid.
I am using a human glucometer, Ascensia Contour from Bayer. It is suitable for cats. It´s one of the most used glucometer for diabetic animals (at least in Germany).
 
We find that when you remove the dry food completely, that the cat's blood glucose (BG) can drop significantly. And sometimes that food change alone can be enough that the cat is in normal BG range does not need insulin.

Normal BG range is 40-120.

It is very possibly that Horst is a transient diabetic and the insulin you gave him along with the food change was enough to get his pancreas working again. It is also possible that he may have had an infection or illness and the antibiotic you gave him was enough to correct that issue and again, get his pancreas working again.

We consider a cat in remission when you don't give insulin for 2 weeks and he stays below 120 and preferably most of that time below 100. What I suggest is that you continue to feed the raw and canned food and test him at different times and if as long as he stays in the normal range, then you may have caught this in time and are doing enough that he won't need insulin.

By the way, what kind of canned food are you using? We suggest using low carb canned food - that is less than 10% carbs. Check out this website about food and other cat information. Also if you scroll down the right side of the page you will find this link Protein/Fat/Carbs Chart, for specific foods. While this is geared toward the US, you may find the foods you feed on this chart. If not, please let us know and we will do our best to help you figure out if it is low carb or not.

Here is the website www.catinfo.org
 
Thanks for your answer, Hillary.

Hillary & Maui said:
that the cat's blood glucose (BG) can drop significantly.
Click to expand...

Aaah, thanks for the correct word. I knew "blood sugar" was wrong, but google translator told me so. :-D

I`m feeding Miamor Fine Filets (tuna and chicken), he doesn´t like any other canned food. I know it´s only supplementary food. I´m about to barf, just bought all needed supplements before he got ill. Further, I need to learn more about barf. But I´ve got a list of low carb canned food that is available in Germany. At least something...apart from that Germany seems not very experienced with diabetic animals :(

Wednesday I´ve got an appointment with the vet, just to go sure ..

Thanks at all for your help :)
 
There is a forum for German speakers, the Diabetes-Katzen forum at http://www.diabetes-katzen.net

I don't know how active the group still is or how many members are regular contributors, but that is another resource for you. They are strictly users of Lantus or Levimir in that forum. They do not use Caninsulin in cats and provide very detailed reasons why.

Diabetic Cat Care forum has some Germany specific information you may find helpful. Here is what they advise about food.
FOOD

Looking at labels on cat foods in Germany is as important as it is everywhere else in the world.

Raw food diet: http://www.fleisch-shop.de/ A refrigerated truck delivers the fresh food but you have to buy at least 30kg, so you need a big freezer. Information on feeding a raw diet to your cat and/or dog is available at Tatzen Laden Here you can find Instincts TC – a supplement to be added to the homemade raw food diet.

Some canned foods to get started with:
Almo Nature Bio Pate Huhn, Kalb oder Lamm,
Almo Nature Bio Pate Schweinefleisch, Truthahn oder Rind
Amora vom Besten Kalb + Pute oder Geflügel + Leber
Animonda Rafiné Petit mit Herz oder mit Kaninchen
Bozita mit Hühnchen, mit Lachs oder mit Rind
Cosma Hühnchen oder Lamm in Jelly
Gimpet Shiny Cat Hühnchen mit Garnelen
Miamor Bio mit Putenherz, mit Geflügelleber, mit Kalb, mit Truthahn
Ziwi-Peak Wild oder Lamm


The canned foods are available here: http://www.zoobi.de or http://www.sandras-tieroase.de Also available here are dried meat treats called Ziwi Peak 'Good Cat' Treats. Good for using when blood testing your cat.
Recently Sheri and Wolf updated me on another place to order food from called Bitiba. She has found with them that usually if you order early enough the food will be delivered the next day. If not – they don’t charge shipping and you get a discount. They send the bill along with it and expect payment with a week.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Deb.

There is another german website about cats with diabetes,but the forum is closed. The web site owner told me to visit your forum and warned me to use the forum, which link you posted.
It is full of users that deny the fact of somogyi-effect and "against regulation" (sorry, translator won´t give me any other word. I hope you know what I mean)
They treat high bg, caused by insulin overdose (somogyi), with higher doses of insulin.(up to 10 iu). And bg of 30-40 is their desired bg value.

But I think the food list might be ok.
 
I agree with Hilary - looks like your cat may have solved his own problem!!! By not eating the dry which can cause diabetes, he helped reduce his own blood glucose and go into remission! Or it could have been the antibiotic. Whatever the cause, for now I would keep monitoring his blood and keep feeding him low carb wet canned food only. Put the dry in the freezer for emergencies if he ever stops eating entirely or throw it out .

If his blood glucose starts to go up again and goes over 200 , we will consider insulin again at that point.
 
They treat high bg, caused by insulin overdose (somogyi), with higher doses of insulin.(up to 10 iu). And bg of 30-40 is their desired bg value.
Click to expand...
My two non-diabetic cats don't have BG numbers down in the 30-40 range. They are high 40's to mid 50's. I wouldn't want to try to get a diabetic cat into numbers that low, 30-40.

Hope you can make use of the food list. I thought it was at least a starting point to find some more foods. Since cats will often eat a food one day and refuse it the next, I thought you might want to have more than one food on hand to feed.
 
Hi Annie,
You had it correct - blood sugar and blood glucose are the same thing actually. I only wrote glucose because you will find many here referring to the blood sugar levels as BG and I just wanted you to understand the abbreviation and word.

:smile:

Insulin overdose can also be called Hypo which is short for hypoglycemia or low blood sugar as a result of being given too much insulin. here is more information on the subject: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1122

and somogyi also can be called bouncing - this is where the BG's can go high to low or low to high - here is more information on it - http://gorbzilla.com/somogyi_rebound_minifaq.htm

http://gorbzilla.com/rebound_roulette.htm


10 units is considered a lot of insulin for most cats. The only time it is not is if the cat is tested and has IAA or acromolegy - here is a link that explains what this is and why it is not common - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=45324

It does occur and we even have a forum dedicated to acromolegy also called high dose kitties.

See you are learning lots of new terms now. :-D

regarding the food - Miamor Fine Filets (tuna and chicken) - I can't seem to find the ingredients, I do see it is in jelly which is fine as it is not gravy. that is good. we do caution about feeding fish flavors more than 2 or 3 times a week, due to the mercury level in fish.

I have read about and find it quite interesting. It's cool that Horst likes it. Do you follow it for yourself too?
 
Good morning @all

Ah, you´re great :-D Thanks a lot for your help and information.
I tried reading some threads that might me useful, but my english is rusty, it took a lot of time. Well, but it´s interesting to learn more. Never know if you need it again one time.

Just tested Horst´s bg,he was sober, when I tested. It was 95. Is that ok for not eating before or should it be lower?

There´s only one thing that makes me a little nervous. 3 days ago I noticed him having a kind of muscle trembling. It´s not only when he´s sleeping but also when he´s just sitting. I also noticed it last year under pain killer, but it seemed to disappear after that (or maybe I didn´t pay attention any more).

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=526 ... 2161234623

Ever seen this before and know what it might be?
 
Annie,

Are you referring to how his legs were moving when he was sleeping? I noticed his back leg moving as he breathed. From what I saw in that video, he was sleeping and may have been dreaming. Sometimes when they get into a deep sleep, they dream. My Buster especially will do that, she will twitch (jerk her legs quickly) and she will move her mouth and nose while sleeping.

Sometimes she will jump up and wake herself up and sometimes if I touch her even gently, she will jump and wake up, then go back to sleep.

What I saw in that video was a cute cat having a nice nap. Nothing to be worried about!

95 is a nice normal number with no food in his body! Definitely do NOT give insulin. This is good!

Remember good BG range is 40-120. He is perfect at 95! :-D
 
Hillary & Maui said:
Remember good BG range is 40-120
Click to expand...

Oh no. He is 130 now :(

I fed raw beef at 4 in the afternoon.(7 hours ago) Might that be the reason? I heard raw beef sometimes increases bg.
But no insulin at 130, right? Should I test again later or wait until tomorrow morning?
 
I made a stab at translating some of our common terms into several languages using Google Translate here

While not perfect, you can try (reverse) translating words and phrases with Google translate to see if you can decipher the gist of the message.
 
AnnieTime said:
Hillary & Maui said:
Remember good BG range is 40-120
Click to expand...

Oh no. He is 130 now :(

I fed raw beef at 4 in the afternoon.(7 hours ago) Might that be the reason? I heard raw beef sometimes increases bg.
But no insulin at 130, right? Should I test again later or wait until tomorrow morning?
Click to expand...

Annie,

I forgot to say, please don't stress (get upset) over one test result. Just like in people, Horst's BG will fluctuate (go up and down) based on many things - excitement, play, food, fear. One test number showing high than the range is no big deal.

Wait one or two hours and test him again. My guess is that he will bring himself back down naturally.

So, no worrying ok. Keep doing what you are doing and giving him raw beef is fine. :-D
 
BJM, thanks for the translation list :)

@all: Ja ja, ok, you´re right, I will calm down. nailbite_smile
Maybe I should read the post "A message from your cat" once again. :mrgreen:

Thanks for your support
 
Today´s bg was 197. I shot a "touch" of insulin (less than 0,2 iu).
Suppose raw beef increased bg. The vet advised to feed raw poultry rather than raw beef, because beef is harder to digest what might cause higher bg.
Or, if knowing a certain kind of food increases Horst´s bg, the dose of insulin should be adjusted to this food.

Well, I won´t feed beef for a few days and see what happens. Maybe I can find a correlation between food and bg.
 
It is normal to have day to day fluctuations on food - each batch from a manufacturer (check lot numbers) may vary in the amounts and sources of ingredients. If you make it yourself, you can reduce that variability, at the expense of your time.

Plus, numerous factors go into BG levels, including but not limited to, activity levels, hormone production besides insulin, digestive enzyme and acid production, and so on. Overall, it may look like consistency because many factors will work together, but in reality, we just don't know everything.
 
Thanks for that information, BJM.

The "touch" of insulin I shot seemed just right, bg is at 102 now.
One thing I need to know: If bg was now at 250, for example, would I give a shot, though 12 hours were not over? Understand what I mean?
Do I give a shot only each 12 hours, or may I give a shot after 7 hours if it was necessary? (Maybe because the earlier given dose was too low)
 
What we generally do here is shoot every 12 hours, as consistently as possible.

Special circumstances, such as a work schedule that requires 11/13 hour time spans, have been done, with customization based on the particular cat. Non-depot insulins may work better for this.
 
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