Lots of questions - Bean and I are new to this!

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corenfa5

corenfa5

Member Since 2012
Hi all!!

I'm new to this, and I'm trying to find advice for my kitty, Bean.

Bean is 8, 15.5 lbs and got diagnosed on 4/30/12. He is heavy, which is why I took him to the vet in the first place! He lost weight, and that's when his diabetes symptoms started presenting.

Now, a few months later we're up to 5.0u of Lantus, and on Science Diet m/d Wet food. 2 cans/day one at 9am, one at 9pm with a shot following each meal.

Main concerns:
1. I just bought a Walgreens TrueResult meter, and tested him in the morning before his food. It said 35mg/dL. So, I fed him, then shot him the 5 units of Lantus and tested him about 45 minutes later and it read 47mg/dL. Is this what should be happening? I've read that 35 is LOW. How reliable is that TrueResult meter?

2. He recently pooped twice outside the box. Once was at the foot of the steps and was liquipoo. :( it smelled SO bad - but I knew it was Bean's (I have another, non diabetic kitty, Kiwi) because it smelled like that m/d Wet food. The other time it was behind the couch, and wasn't as liquid. Is this a symptom of something diabetic related?

3. He used to pee outside the box frequently. Since the Lantus, that's stopped. (yay) But I think he might not be drinking enough. I can't really tell though...

4. Science diet m/d is REALLY expensive ($40/month!) can I get it cheaper somewhere? Or can I feed a different kind of food? My vet says that for what Bean needs, the pet stores don't have food that would work.

5. Same cost question for Lantus - $125 a vial was the cheapest I found for the first vial, but I'd like to spend much less for the next vials I need!!

Thank you for all advice!

Kelly

Bean and Kiwi
 
35 mg/dL is way to low to give any insulin. As a starter until you have date insulin is usually not given if the BG is less the 200. I conclude that 5 units is way too much.
I would monitor him at least every hour.
Many users have reported that the Tru meters are not that accurate and will not use them again and then have changed meters.
Come back here with the BG reading. It is very likely that I would not give any insulin this evening.
You do not need the prescription foods. The Classic variety of Fancy Feast is fine.
Lantus is not sheep. Most users here purchase the disposable pens. Per ml they cost more but you usually do not end up throwing any away
I would not worry about the inappropriate defecation yet. It may be related to the diet change and overdosing. The urination should go down with control of the BG.
 
5 units is definitely too much. I don't think anyone on here feeds Science Diet, or Hill's Prescription (although, my cat was on the latter before I completely switched her to wet food only). Here are 2 links for good food for Bean:

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodOld.html

Hopefully, someone will more experienced eyes than I can come along to help you with the insulin, and this evening's shot. Keep posting his #s in here. Do you have a spreadsheet already made for him? If not, it would be helpful to set one up so that those with experience to see how Bean's doing.

Here's the info for setting up a spreadsheet:

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207&start=0

I know that it's a lot to take in. You'll get through this. There are other stickies to read to help you with this, along with those that are experienced, of course.
 
corenfa5 said:
Hi all!!

I'm new to this, and I'm trying to find advice for my kitty, Bean.

Bean is 8, 15.5 lbs and got diagnosed on 4/30/12. He is heavy, which is why I took him to the vet in the first place! He lost weight, and that's when his diabetes symptoms started presenting.

Now, a few months later we're up to 5.0u of Lantus, and on Science Diet m/d Wet food. 2 cans/day one at 9am, one at 9pm with a shot following each meal.

Main concerns:
1. I just bought a Walgreens TrueResult meter, and tested him in the morning before his food. It said 35mg/dL. So, I fed him, then shot him the 5 units of Lantus and tested him about 45 minutes later and it read 47mg/dL. Is this what should be happening? I've read that 35 is LOW. How reliable is that TrueResult meter?

2. He recently pooped twice outside the box. Once was at the foot of the steps and was liquipoo. :( it smelled SO bad - but I knew it was Bean's (I have another, non diabetic kitty, Kiwi) because it smelled like that m/d Wet food. The other time it was behind the couch, and wasn't as liquid. Is this a symptom of something diabetic related?

3. He used to pee outside the box frequently. Since the Lantus, that's stopped. (yay) But I think he might not be drinking enough. I can't really tell though...

4. Science diet m/d is REALLY expensive ($40/month!) can I get it cheaper somewhere? Or can I feed a different kind of food? My vet says that for what Bean needs, the pet stores don't have food that would work.

5. Same cost question for Lantus - $125 a vial was the cheapest I found for the first vial, but I'd like to spend much less for the next vials I need!!

Thank you for all advice!

Kelly

Bean and Kiwi
Click to expand...

Welcome to the site!
1. I just bought a Walgreens TrueResult meter, and tested him in the morning before his food. It said 35mg/dL. So, I fed him, then shot him the 5 units of Lantus and tested him about 45 minutes later and it read 47mg/dL. Is this what should be happening? I've read that 35 is LOW. How reliable is that TrueResult meter?
Click to expand...
First, you can get a meter other than the TRU one you have now as people have had issues with false/incorrect readings from them; they are not a reliable meter at all. Also, do NOT get the FreeStyle meters because their butterfly strips never give readings above 299, and many people have been fooled in thinking their cats were doing not too bad.
If in the US, the Relion is the most reliable and economical, with the strips quite inexpensive. I prefer the Bayer Contour and many others like the Bayer meters, but there are several good brands... OneTouch is good and the Accu-chek is not too bad either.

The numbers are worrisome to me. With a number like 47, you don't need to be giving insulin as that's a perfect kind of non-diabetic BG number.

Next is that dose of 5u of Lantus.... WAY too much insulin unless your cat has an insulin resistance condition and you have worked up to the 5u very slowly over time, or if you have had your cat tested and confirmed as having a condition such as acromegaly or IAA.

4. Science diet m/d is REALLY expensive ($40/month!) can I get it cheaper somewhere? Or can I feed a different kind of food? My vet says that for what Bean needs, the pet stores don't have food that would work.
Click to expand...

For sure, switch to any of the pate flavors of Fancy Feast or Friskies because they are much more economical and better for your cats. Binky's list can provide you with a wide variety of other foods... you want to stay under 10% carbs and avoid the gravy flavors, as the high carb will cause higher BG numbers.
5. Same cost question for Lantus - $125 a vial was the cheapest I found for the first vial, but I'd like to spend much less for the next vials I need!!
Click to expand...

Many people order their insulins online, and if you are at a lower dose, it's likely better for you to buy the pens / cartridges, and your insulin will last longer.
 
Some people, like myself, also get their Lantus from Craigslist.com . You may be able to find some in your area. People tend to sell pens and/or vials for a lot less than what you'd pay in the store. Most cases, the people selling them have been switched to another form of insulin, or are in remission and don't need it anymore. It's a thought. :)
 
Welcome, Hopefully someone who is experienced more will be along soon to help. Angela is right though, you need to feed HC, and monitor very closely and quiet often.

I did want to let you know we had issues with the True line of meters. They ran extremely low. Over 125 point difference. Here's a thread with others having the same issues. http://208.131.143.77/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=14303&sid=ede60413d8f06174e2fd5ad57d871eea We've switched over to the ReliOn Confirm, sold at walmart. It's been very accurate and within meter variance of my vet's meter. They are very reasonably priced. Meters are about $9, and a 100 count strips are $36. (There's also a option to get the strips online cheaper through ADW.)
 
I should have added ... if you can get a different meter, then get a couple tests, you can post the BG numbers and the time in relation to the shot time -
123 - at 9am / amps (fed and gave shot 5u Lantus)
65 - at 1pm / +4 (4hrs after shot)
257 - at 6pm / +9 (9hrs after shot)

that way people can see how the insulin AND that dose is working.

yes, if you get a number in the 40s, using a reliable meter, you should follow the advice for hypo

List of Hypo symptoms
How to treat HYPOS-They can kill! Print this out!
Jojo’s HYPO TOOLKIT
 
Wow thanks everyone!

Here's an update:
I'll go get a new meter today - haven't had a chance yet but I just tested Bean again (with the trueresult) and here's what I've had so far today:

9am - 35mg/dL - fed 1 can of m/d, shot 5u Lantus
11am - 47mg/dL
12:45 - 53 mg/dL

So, I know my meter sucks - but at least the number is going up - right??

Bean and I got up to 5u of Lantus with my vet - we started at 2u - then gradually bumped it up. I was taking Bean to the vet and having the vet test him all day - and Bean's numbers were still astronomical. I think his numbers might be so low thanks to being on wet food?

I'll check around for cheaper Lantus, and I'll look for a new meter today too. Walgreens? CVS? WalMart? Any suggestions?
 
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already but you need to test the blood glucose level BEFORE you give insulin. That way you know if the blood glucose level is at a safe enough level for any insulin to be given (over 200 mg/dl for newbies) As others have said, 35 is way way too low for any insulin.


corenfa5 said:
9am - 35mg/dL - fed 1 can of m/d, shot 5u Lantus
11am - 47mg/dL
12:45 - 53 mg/dL

So, I know my meter sucks - but at least the number is going up - right?? [/quote


The numbers are going up slowly. Keep testing and feeding small amounts of food, preferably gravy based canned food like one of the Fancy Feast sliced varieties.

I was taking Bean to the vet and having the vet test him all day - and Bean's numbers were still astronomical. I think his numbers might be so low thanks to being on wet food?
Click to expand...

Blood glucose tests done at the vet's office are often inaccurately high because many cats are so stressed out that their blood glucose level skyrockets really high. This is why testing at home should be done. The numbers will be much more accurate.

A canned food only diet can improve blood glucose levels for many cats.

I'll check around for cheaper Lantus, and I'll look for a new meter today too. Walgreens? CVS? WalMart? Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Most people here use the Lantus SoloStar pens instead of the 10 ml bottle. I posted some info on how to find the lowest prices on Lantus here http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=74128#p804047
 
Your least expensive option for a meter is at Walmart. Their store brand, Relion, is an inexpensive meter and is reliable. The strips are also among the least expensive available. The brands like the Bayer Contour, etc. can be inexpensive but the cost for the strips is far more expensive than the Relion. If you're going to make a trip to Walmart, you may also want to have your vet call in a prescription for syringes. You may want to get U100 syringes that are in half unit increments. With Lantus, we make dose adjustments in 0.25u amounts and it's much easier if you have syringes that are broken down into half units.

Please keep testing Bean. When you see the kind of low numbers you experienced today, numbers can bobble around and drop when you least expect. Here's a guide to handling low numbers. It will walk you through what to do and what to look out for.

As far as changing food, if you switch from M/D to Fancy Feast or any other lower carb food, I would strongly encourage you to decrease Bean's insulin dose. The Hill's food is 14% carb. We consider that a medium carb food. The pate style Fancy Feast foods are around 4 - 5% carb. We consider low carb anything below 10% carb and most of us feed around 5%, give or take. Chances are that with the amount of insulin you've been giving, the higher carb M/D has been balancing out the insulin to some degree. Clearly, with the low numbers today, Bean is telling you he needs less insulin.
 
If you started in April at 2 units, it is very possible that you started this whole thing at TOO HIGH a dose. Our recommend starting dose is 0.5 to 1.0 units. We NEVER suggest that someone start at 2 units, that's just crazy.

Also, taking the cat to the vet to be tested is a waste of money. You will never get a true reading at the vet's office due to vet stress, cat being out of home environment, etc.

Change the food to Friskies, Fancy Feast or some other one that you like from the food chart. Remember to stay under 10% carbs!

And before you give anymore insulin - please TEST with a different meter (not the lousy TRU meter) to see just where Bean is at and whether he really needs insulin or not. And if you do give insulin - please don't give 5 units.

Honestly, I suggest you go back to the beginning and give 1 unit, but that is only if the test results warrant a need for insulin.
 
OK - I'll head to Wal Mart today and pick up a Relion brand meter and strips.

Should I be worried about Fancy Feast's higher fat content? How many cans a day should I feed him? (he's about 15.5 lbs now, needs to lose some weight) Also, he had a runny poo accident a couple nights ago, I don't want the FF to be too rich for him, and make his tummy upset...

Bean isn't exhibiting any hypo symptoms - he's being totally normal, which makes me think my numbers are so low because of my inaccurate meter. He was most likely never THAT low. (I've heard this meter is off by as much as 125!!!)
 
corenfa5 said:
Here's an update:
I'll go get a new meter today - haven't had a chance yet but I just tested Bean again (with the trueresult) and here's what I've had so far today:

9am - 35mg/dL - fed 1 can of m/d, shot 5u Lantus
11am - 47mg/dL
12:45 - 53 mg/dL
Click to expand...

Just tested -

2:00 - 42mg/dL
 
Also - before I forget

Sometimes, in the morning before I wake up and feed him, he throws up. Not often - but always in the morning before food. It's a white, foamy substance - no food in the vomit at all.

Why could that be?
 
Should I be worried about Fancy Feast's higher fat content? How many cans a day should I feed him? (he's about 15.5 lbs now, needs to lose some weight) Also, he had a runny poo accident a couple nights ago, I don't want the FF to be too rich for him, and make his tummy upset...
Click to expand...

As far as an upset tummy from too-rich food, you'll just have to try different flavors to see if it upsets his tummy. If you see his system is having a hard time with certain flavors (some cats have a hard time with beef or liver, for instance), then avoid those in the future. With a diet change, it's experimentation to some degree. I personally wouldn't worry as much about the fat content as the carbs content at this point. The lower carbs is what he needs.

Regarding his weight....until his numbers are under control and he gets to some level of regulation, he won't be able to metabolize what he does eat as efficiently as a non-diabetic cat could. Once his numbers are better, you can concentrate on trying to get him to shed a little bit of weight if he still needs to. I guess right now, try to focus more on carbs and getting his numbers regulated, and then you can worry about his "figure" later. :smile:

With Bob, I had the opposite problem. He'd lost too much weight by the time he was diagnosed, and I was trying to add a couple pounds. He weighed 12 pounds when he was diagnosed (down from 18 at his last check up 6 months earlier), and the vet had me try to get him to 14. While on insulin, he ate 2 cans of FF classics and half a can of Friskees Pates daily. That got him up to 14, and he has maintained that diet and that weight for almost a year since he went OTJ. I think Bean would probably do okay on 2-3 cans of FF classics a day, but others might have a different take.

Carl
 
corenfa5 said:
corenfa5 said:
Here's an update:
I'll go get a new meter today - haven't had a chance yet but I just tested Bean again (with the trueresult) and here's what I've had so far today:

9am - 35mg/dL - fed 1 can of m/d, shot 5u Lantus
11am - 47mg/dL
12:45 - 53 mg/dL
Click to expand...

Just tested -

2:00 - 42mg/dL
Click to expand...

3:30 - 37mg/dL (but I don't trust it, as its my shite meter.... going to Wal Mart soon)
 
Has he eaten anything since his morning shot?

Carl
 
With numbers this low, even if it may be reading incorrectly, it is important to feed him often. Many people provide meals several (3-4) times a day. Personally, I leave canned food out all day for my cats to graze on as they desire.

It is actually better for cats to eat several small meals throughout the day than only 2 meals per day.

By leaving food out, if your cat really does have these very low numbers, he can at least eat to attempt to bring the numbers up.
 
It works better for most diabetics (including human ones) to eat several small meals across the day.

Please hurry & get that new meter now.
You have been lucky so far, but if he has too much insulin on board, he could become hypoglycemic and die.

And yes, I want you to be concerned here. You need to be thinking about his safety.
 
The vomiting could be that he has become too hungry and his stomach is more acidic than normal.
Or he could be hypoglycemic.
 
Ah...
OK, a lot of people here have found that just like human diabetics, kitty diabetics often benefit from multiple smaller meals throughout the day/night rather than just twice a day meals. Many users of Lantus have found that it helps a great deal with an insulin that is so long lasting. What it does is spread the carb-boost from food more evenly.

At this point, you can't be certain that the numbers you are getting from your meter are accurate numbers, but, for safety's sake, it is always best to assume that they are until you know for sure (by getting another meter to test against) that they aren't. Another thing you could try is to test your own BG with the meter you have, and see what sort of number you get.

Somebody has probably already linked you to this, but it explains how to deal with low numbers when you see them:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=147
This is a portion of that -

If your cat is testing in low numbers and you are not getting a quick response to your post, there are several things you need to do. (Low numbers are under 50mg/dL or 2.8 mmol/L.)

Depending on how carbohydrate sensitive your cat is, feed approximately a teaspoon or less of food with high carb (HC) gravy or HC food only. (If you have a cat with GI issues, using syrup plus LC food is an alternative.)
Test again in 15 – 20 min. Depending on the numbers, give more HC food.
Repeat the above steps every 15 – 20 min. until your cat tests in the 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) or above range for 2 consecutive tests. Continue to feed in small amounts to keep numbers in a safe range.
Test in 30 - 40 min. and repeat the test and feed process until there are 2 consecutive tests where numbers are stable or rising.
Test in an hour and follow the same steps.
DO NOT become complacent. If number have risen after one or two tests, it’s important to continue testing. Numbers may bobble up and down as the HC food and/or Karo wear off. DO NOT get one test where your cat has risen from low numbers into the 50s and go to sleep or leave the house. You are putting your cat in a risky situation. When in doubt, leave HC food out.
Click to expand...

From the numbers you have posted, if anything, his numbers have come down a bit. If those numbers are "real", than 37 is too low, and what would be recommended is that you give him a tsp of higher carb or gravy style food in order to make the BG come up some. It is always a great idea to have higher carb gravy style food in the cabinet for times when you need to bring his numbers up fairly quickly. I read that you said he hasn't shown any symptoms of hypoglycemia at this point, but cats don't always exhibit signs when their numbers are below 50 or 40. I saw some 40's with Bob, and if I hadn't seen them on the meter, I would never had known he was that low.

If you have any gravy style food in the house, it might be a good idea to give him a spoonful. If you only have low-carb, a spoonful of that would also be a good idea.

Carl
 
corenfa5 said:
corenfa5 said:
corenfa5 said:
Here's an update:
I'll go get a new meter today - haven't had a chance yet but I just tested Bean again (with the trueresult) and here's what I've had so far today:

9am - 35mg/dL - fed 1 can of m/d, shot 5u Lantus
11am - 47mg/dL
12:45 - 53 mg/dL
Click to expand...

Just tested -

2:00 - 42mg/dL
Click to expand...

3:30 - 37mg/dL (but I don't trust it, as its my shite meter.... going to Wal Mart soon)
Click to expand...

4:30 - 43mg/dL
 
OK, I would first test my self.

Then I would feed a tsp or two of canned food.

Then I would race to walmart to get a new meter. Is there someone else who could do that for you, or stay there with him until you get back?

Carl
 
Hi,
Bob is right - with a human diabetic (I'm a dietitian), 5-6 small meals a day is better and I have tried that with Harley. He does seem to do better with meals spread out over the day. Harley is on Fancy Feast - 2-3 cans a day. I usually go with 1.5oz AM/PM and then the other can or 2 spread evenly over the day and night.

Cheaper lantus. I have resorted to buying lantus from craigs list. Venita from DCIN sent me an informational sheet on buying from CL and I can get it for you. I usually buy lantus pens because after 1 to 1.5 months it is gone and I open a new one. I found them more economical than vials...I threw many 1/2- 1/4 full vials away because they were too old. I don't do that with the pens.

I may have missed it, but where do you live?

Pattie
 
I, you've gotten a lot of great information. I started w/ the Tru meter also and it sucked! Get a new meter! (the Relion from Walmart is very good and you can get strips even cheaper online, Target also has a house brand Up & UP which is really the WaveSense, another good meter and strips are about the same price) Depending on your state you may not need a prescription for the syringes.

Actually the Lantus in pens (about $200 at Costco) is only slightly more expensive than in the vials because you get 15ml., not just 10ml. as in the vial. It is a bigger initial outlay, but you can get 5x longer use from it. As others have said too, you often have to throw out a lot of the vial but little w/ the pen. Insulin slowly breaks down once the seal is broken on the container, w/ the smaller container you have a better chance of using it up. Call around to find the best price. Occasionally you can find a pharmacy that will sell single pens as well.

Hills M/D is really not a good food, poor ingredients, too high a carb content and too expensive. Many cats refuse to eat it. Your vet should give you a refund, just say he won't eat it anymore and that he has been vomiting. If it smelled like the M/D are you sure it was poo, not vomit? If it smelled like the food , it was likely vomit. FF or even Friskies (especially the Special Diet flavors) is just as good if not better. Carbs are much more important than fat. A cat's digestive system is different and fat content does not effect them as it does us. If you can buy large cans, the price of the premium foods comes way down.
 
I read back through your first post and I noticed no one had addressed the water question. Enough moisture is critical for cats especially diabetics. Most of us add water to their canned food, I add about an equal amount of water as food. Watch Bean eat,most cats will lap up the water first then eat the solid food. That's how cats get most of their moisture. Ever watch lions feeding a fresh kill? They lick off the blood (sorry if this is too gross) from the meat before eating it. That is how they have evolved to get most of their moisture.

also what increments was your vet increasing the dose?
 
OK updates on this crazy Bean cat :o)

Ran to Wal Mart - got the ReliOn Ultima meter and strips. I've tested him 2x since I got home - so new numbers are:

8p - 50mg/dL
8:15 -Feed - 1 can m/d
9:15 - 91mg/dL

I'm NOT shooting him tonight - because that's a great number (right!?) I'll check him again, before I go to bed.

New question - his poor ear!! I'm terrible at just nipping the capillary (I think I'm nervous I'll poke through) so I've not been getting much blood. He is not a fan of me messing with his ears, lancet in hand!! Any advice to minimize his pain? The vet tech told me that when testing a bunch in one day you can just open up the scab from the first time, and that works - but he still doesn't like it.
 
Missed some questions:

Pattie - I'm in the Midwest - Davenport, Iowa to be exact.

Ann - my vet started me at 2u, 2x/day. We moved to 3u, 2x/day then 4u, 2x/day then eventually the 5u, 2x/day. But, the more I think about it - I was trying the dry m/d because it was more wallet friendly. That was at least a month and a half ago - he's been on wet m/d since.
Also - it was DEFINITELY poo - it did smell like m/d - but a horrific m/d mixed with poo combo....
 
corenfa5 said:
8p - 50mg/dL
8:15 -Feed - 1 can m/d
9:15 - 91mg/dL

I'm NOT shooting him tonight - because that's a great number (right!?) I'll check him again, before I go to bed.
Click to expand...

10:30 - before bedtime read: 60mg/dL

So, clearly 5u is way too much. How much do I scale it back? I'll test tomorrow AM before I feed him - but I don't know how much to reduce his insulin by...
 
When you test this morning please post his number before giving a shot?
Carl
 
corenfa5 said:
10:30 - before bedtime read: 60mg/dL

So, clearly 5u is way too much. How much do I scale it back? I'll test tomorrow AM before I feed him - but I don't know how much to reduce his insulin by...
Click to expand...

Your cat may not even need insulin at all.

Test in the morning and see where the blood glucose level is. If it is under 200 mg/dl, do not give any insulin. If it is over 200mg/dl, then I suggest giving a very reduced dose of no more than 1 unit. You could do 0.5 units if you want to err on the side of caution. But do post here to get dosing advice before you give any insulin. If you don't get a response and you have to leave for the day, then it's better to not give any insulin at all than to give something and possibly risk a hypo a few hours later.
 
If you don't mind, I've got a few questions since you've been making some good changes. I want to be sure we're all on the same page so information doesn't get overlooked.

  • You've switched meters and are now using a Relion? At which point in your tests did you switch?
  • Have you changed Bean's food to Fancy Feast or something other than M/D?
  • You're not shooting if numbers are lower than 200?
Based on the dosing protocol we use (Tight Regulation for Lantus/Levemir), your vet was having you raise Bean's dose far in excess of what the research would indicate. Typically, Lantus dose is raised by 0.25u. From what you described, you were raising your dose by 1.0u. Dropping Bean's dose back to a safer range and then systematically adjusting the dose in smaller increments may help you to find a better dose.

Given Bean's weight, if you were to re-start your Lantus dose, there is a weight based formula (initial dose = 0.25 x ideal weight in kilograms). If 15.5 lbs (7.03 kg) is close to Bean's ideal weight, a starting dose of 1.75u would be indicated. Of course, all of this depends on whether or not Bean's test numbers indicate that he needs insulin.

You should also know that when a cat's blood glucose drops below 50 (again, based on the dosing protocol), it indicates that a dose reduction is warranted.

Also, since you are doing such a good job of getting test data, you may want to set up a spreadsheet so you can keep track of the information. This will allow you to have all of the information in one place and it will allow us to better help you.

Regarding Bean's ears -- the more you test, the better the ear will bleed. It's not unusual to have a bit of difficulty in the beginning. As you test more, the capillary bed in the ear will build up and it will be easier to get blood. You may also want to use a bit of Neosporin Pain Relief ointment on Bean's ear. It can help the ear to heal a bit and it has pain relief properties. If you use a tiny bit before testing, the blood will bead up.
 
Morning!

Bean's AM read was:

9:15 - 89ml/dL
He's eating right now, but I'm guessing I won't need to shoot him today...

He's still on m/d - I have a few cans left, so I'm going to let him eat the rest of those.

Sienne and Gabby said:
  • You've switched meters and are now using a Relion? At which point in your tests did you switch?
  • Have you changed Bean's food to Fancy Feast or something other than M/D?
  • You're not shooting if numbers are lower than 200?

Also, since you are doing such a good job of getting test data, you may want to set up a spreadsheet so you can keep track of the information. This will allow you to have all of the information in one place and it will allow us to better help you.
Click to expand...

Switched meters and took a read at 8pm yesterday.
Bean is still on m/d
Nope, not shooting if he's less than 200 - but question, less than 200 before, or after he eats?

The spreadsheet looks great, but I'm pretty confused by it....
 
Good morning and Welcome!!

AMPS = AM (morning) Pre-shot bg number
PMPS = PM (evening) Pre-shot bg number

Once you get the spreadsheet up and going, you'll find it one of your BEST tools for doing this dance!!

BIG HUG!
 
corenfa5 said:
Morning!

Bean's AM read was:

9:15 - 89ml/dL
He's eating right now, but I'm guessing I won't need to shoot him today...
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Nice number :thumbup

He's still on m/d - I have a few cans left, so I'm going to let him eat the rest of those.
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You can return the unopened cans to the vet and use the refund to buy a low carb commerical canned food :smile: I don't think anyone has given you the link to the food charts and lists. Here they are:

Binky's canned food charts
Pet Food Nutritional Values list
Hobo's Guide To Nutritional Values
Dr. Lynne's Wet Food list
List of low carb gluten free Fancy Feast

On Binky's charts, stick with foods that have a number 10 or less in the carbs colum. On the Pet Food Nutritional Values Chart and Hobo's Guide, look at the %kcal from carbs column and choose foods that have a number 10 or less.

Feed low carb treats: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9172

Some people have suggested Fancy Feast already. There are other good brands to feed.

Nope, not shooting if he's less than 200 - but question, less than 200 before, or after he eats?
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Before. It's test blood gluocse level, feed, and give insulin. Though some people test and give insulin while the cat is eating and is less likely to notice anything else. It shouldn't take you more than a a few minutes to do this.


The spreadsheet looks great, but I'm pretty confused by it....
Click to expand...

You read each row across.

Date is self explanatory.

AMPS is morning pre-insulin blood glucose level.

U is units of insulin. If none was given you can put a "n/a" or "none" or "0" in the box.

The columns with the + numbers indicate hours after the insulin shot. +1 is 1 hour after the insulin shot, +2 is 2 hours after the insulin shot, etc. If you get a blood glucose reading say 5 hours after the insulin, you would enter the number into the +5 box for that day.

PMPS is the evening pre-insulin blood glucose level.

Comments/Remarks is for any notes like if your cat went to the vet, threw up, did not eat, etc.

Take a look at some members' spreadsheets to get an idea of how it works. Most people have the link to their spreadsheet in their signature. I'd show you mine but it is information overload for a newbie (4 years of data @-) ) and my cat was not a typical diabetic so what I did for him most likely doesn't apply to anyone else here.
 
OK - Bean and I have had a GREAT two days thanks to all the advice from you guys!

Check the spreadsheet for today's numbers - NO INSULIN GIVEN!! What?!! Awesome!

But - that makes me nervous. We were are FIVE units TWICE a day - and now we can quit cold turkey?! Something there just doesn't compute with me... Perhaps all he needed was to switch to canned food?? (He was on Science Diet Light dry for EVER before all this diabetes changes started happening)

I went out today, returned the m/d, and got him some Friskies - I bought all classic pate, and I got a variety of seafood ones, as well as some turkey, beef and mixed grill so he doesn't mercury overload. (he loves his fishes though!!) I've tested him after he's eaten those twice now, and still no numbers above 150!

I fed him 3x today, different from the usual 2x - I'll have to work out a schedule that we can maintain when school's back in session.

Also - the vet wants to do a day of "fructosamine" testing. Do I need this? What is it?


Side question - what does OTJ mean?
 
Bean may very well be a diet-controlled diabetic. My Donovan ate all sorts of crappy dry food for years before he became diabetic - who knows what finally triggered it. He became diet-controlled too after ~10 months on insulin. If you are home testing, there is no reason to bring him to the vet for it. Fructosamine testing is another way of checking overall blood sugar averages. Save your money (and buy testing strips instead!)

OTJ = Off The Juice, or NO INSULIN.

Keep feeding low-carb wet food and keep testing. I have no idea why he'd suddenly go from a dose of 5U to nothing, but I am thrilled for you.

MJ
 
First off, one doesn't take a cat in for an all day fructosamine test. This test will provide you with the average BG over a 2-3 week period. One test is all that is needed and is usually done BEFORE home testing as a way to determine if in fact the animal is diabetic.

Given that you are home testing, you have current, relevant data and there is absolutely NO NEED to take the cat for a fructosamine test at this point. Does it really matter what his average BG was 3 weeks ago? No, it doesn't. What matters is what it is now.

So, save your money and don't bother with this test.

If the vet then says, bring him in for a curve test. Again, save your money and do this from home. As doing a curve at the vet will not give you accurate numbers due to vet stress and other factors. All a curve is, is testing the BG every 2 hours to see what the pattern is.

Again, something best done at home.

If you read back through all these posts, you will see that we have been telling you all along that 5 units is WAY TOO HIGH a dose to be starting out with, even 2 units is way too high.

Now that you have changed foods, it is not surprising that Bean's bgs have dropped considerably and he could potentially be considered in remission. In order to actually be in remission - he needs to go 14 days without insulin and keeping in normal BG range -

Here is a link to what is considered normal range: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Blood ... guidelines

Some ways to handling your new feeding regimen:

1) Open the canned food and mix with 1/3 can of water
2) Freeze this - you can use plastic baggie, small container, ice cube trays
3) After frozen - you can serve this, along with a non-frozen canned food - put in separate container and it will take a few hours to thaw, by that time Bean will have eaten the non-frozen food and this will be thawed enough and fresh for him to eat.

This is a great tip - especially if you won't be home to open a fresh can. It's also great for overnight feeding too, this way you get to sleep.
 
Hillary & Maui said:
Some ways to handling your new feeding regimen:

1) Open the canned food and mix with 1/3 can of water
2) Freeze this - you can use plastic baggie, small container, ice cube trays
3) After frozen - you can serve this, along with a non-frozen canned food - put in separate container and it will take a few hours to thaw, by that time Bean will have eaten the non-frozen food and this will be thawed enough and fresh for him to eat.

This is a great tip - especially if you won't be home to open a fresh can. It's also great for overnight feeding too, this way you get to sleep.
Click to expand...

If only. If your Bean is like my Sneakers she insists that I get up and LOOK at her food dish in the middle of the night. She won't eat otherwise. Did this with the dry food as well. A bowl full and all I had to do was stir it and she was happy to eat. No stir she was back to waking me up within 5 minutes :roll: . But this way I get night tests and add water to what ever she left behind at bedtime.

I so hope Bean has become diet controlled.
 
OK It looks like he's not diet controlled :(

My guess is that he was lower these past few days because there was SO much Lantus in his system. He's not "high" now, but I just read him and he was at 218. Steadily creeping up since I stopped the insulin.

So now, the question is: When I feed him later this evening, how much do I shoot him? 1u? .5u? What number am I looking for at +1 PMPS? If I shoot him .5u, then his +1 PMPS number is still high, do I shoot him another .5?
 
I am not sure regarding the dose, but at least this will bump up your question. I am pretty positive that you should not shoot more insulin at +1, regardless of the reading. Hopefully others will see this and chime in.
 
I'd do a restart at 1.0 units.

Unless he goes too low at preshot (200 for now) to give insulin, keep giving that dose for at least 3 days. As you learn how he responds to insulin, you may lower the 200, but you want some good, steady weeks or so of data before you try shooting lower.

If he ever goes below 50 during the middle of his cycle, the nadir, which is usually around 5-7 hours after the injection, he may earn a dose reduction if there is nothing else going on to explain the low level (ex vomiting, hairballs, diarrhea, pancreatitis, other illness).

Its time to pop over to the insulin forums for Lantus. We have 2 - Tight Regulation which has a protocol that has gotten kitties off of insulin, and "Relaxed" Lantus for individuals who are unable to follow that protocol to the letter due to various reasons (scheduling, other health conditions in the cat, etc) Read the stickies at the top of both and post in whichever one seens the best fit for you.
 
You could go with either .5 or 1.0 assuming he reads over 200 at shot time. Typically a reading taken at +1 would be higher because, the food has raised the BG, and the insulin hasn't started working yet. But, you only get one shot every 12 hours. You can't go an hour or two and give more, no matter what numbers you see.
Carl
 
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