Losing hope

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Chris123

Chris123

Member Since 2017
I'll try to be as quick as possible
So my Max was diagnosed diabetic in October. The vet started him on vetsulin with minimal changes to his BG levels. Changed vets and now he is on 4 units of PZI twice a day he appears to be resistant to insulin as his Glucose curve is not making sense
We're bringing him back in to check his thyroid and hoping that's is the problem so we have something to work with
ANY HELP OR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED
TESTED WITH ALPHA TRAX METER
Fed @ 5:30am gave 4 units
8:45-374
10:25-335
12:30-346
3:10-345
Fed@5:15 gave 4 units
5:15-309
6:20-359
7:05-385
9:25-331
 
We will try to help you get hope back! :bighug:How quickly was the dose raised and by how much? What is his diet like? (brand, flavour, amount, etc)
 
Last increase was from 3 units to 4 as his numbers were still never below 300
1 can fancy feast classic chicken in am and same in evening
He is hungry all day, urination levels still elevated
 
Has each dose been increased by a whole unit? I'm suspecting he is on too high of a dose. We just had another member encounter similar issue and recommended starting over at 1.0U but she has some data in a spreadsheet we use. Here is the link: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

If you could also set up your signature, will be helpful for those with bad memories and avoid repetitive same questions: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/editing-your-signature-profile-and-preferences.130340/
 
Also, a lot of us feed a few times a day. Unregulated diabetes results in the kitty's body "Starving" because it cannot properly absorb nutrients.
 
When we changed to pzi he was on 2.0u for 2 weeks then 3.0 for 3 weeks and been @ 4.0 for 10 days now we do feed him multiple times but for the curve we try to minimize feedings in conjunction with shooting
Does thyroid make any sense along with diabetes
7 months in and no sign of relief for him very sad
 
Chris123 said:
I'll try to be as quick as possible
So my Max was diagnosed diabetic in October. The vet started him on vetsulin with minimal changes to his BG levels. Changed vets and now he is on 4 units of PZI twice a day he appears to be resistant to insulin as his Glucose curve is not making sense
We're bringing him back in to check his thyroid and hoping that's is the problem so we have something to work with
ANY HELP OR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED
TESTED WITH ALPHA TRAX METER
Fed @ 5:30am gave 4 units
8:45-374
10:25-335
12:30-346
3:10-345
Fed@5:15 gave 4 units
5:15-309
6:20-359
7:05-385
9:25-331
Click to expand...

Chris definitely don't give up hope on Max. The people here are very knowledgeable and will do whatever they can to help, be it emotional support or medical advice. But do know that our animals know our faith in them or lack of faith so make sure you keep positive around Max. They have an intuitive sense and just like people dealing with a physical or medical issue they have to have a positive attitude. Hang in there Chris and Max I believe you will find an answer
 
Chris123 said:
When we changed to pzi he was on 2.0u for 2 weeks then 3.0 for 3 weeks and been @ 4.0 for 10 days now we do feed him multiple times but for the curve we try to minimize feedings in conjunction with shooting
Does thyroid make any sense along with diabetes
7 months in and no sign of relief for him very sad
Click to expand...
Ok, then doses were increased by whole units. We prefer to increase by 0.25U / 0.5U. There is a good chance his ideal dose was missed because of the big jumps. Usually for curves, you want to maintain the same feeding schedule to know how the dose is working along with diet :). Some cats do have thyroid issues with diabetes. How supportive is your Vet of you taking a more "hands on" approach? How comfortable / willing are you to take charge? ;)
 
Chris123 said:
When we changed to pzi he was on 2.0u for 2 weeks then 3.0 for 3 weeks and been @ 4.0 for 10 days now we do feed him multiple times but for the curve we try to minimize feedings in conjunction with shooting
Does thyroid make any sense along with diabetes
7 months in and no sign of relief for him very sad
Click to expand...

Chris I know thyroid can cause like symptoms and it wouldn't be impossible to have both going on in an older cat.
I found this on one of the vet websites: Since both hyperthyroidism and diabetes are common in older cats it is often necessary to deal with both conditions. Usually, the cat has one disease, which is being treated, then the second disease begins and must be dealt with.

If your cat is hyperthyroid first, you will probably have started therapy and gotten the thyroid hormone levels near normal. Then if the cat then becomes diabetic, the hyperthyroidism (which is controlled) probably won't play a major role in the diabetes management.

The situation is a bit more complicated if the cat is diabetic, then becomes hyperthyroid too. Since hyperthyroidism has similar signs as diabetes (increased appetite, drinking, urination, and weight loss), a cat that is diabetic who continues to show these signs may be thought of as just needing additional diabetes management care. But the possibility of hyperthyroidism should not be overlooked. Since hyperthyroidism causes a general increase in the body's metabolic rate, it will have an effect on the diabetes and diabetes management. Often, a cat that is hyperthyroid requires higher doses of insulin in order to maintain the blood glucose levels near normal. As the hyperthyroidism is brought under control, the metabolism slows to a more normal rate, and the insulin dose needs to be adjusted. Pre-existing diabetes will probably have an effect on which hyperthyroid treatment option is used.

The other thing is to make sure your vet checks for any other infections that may be going on in Max...i.e. possible bladder issues or even a dental issue / infection can cause elevated BG levels along with feeling poorly symptoms that Max might be displaying. Make sure your vet runs tests for Max's bladder and inspects his mouth and teeth.
 
Chris123 said:
Last increase was from 3 units to 4 as his numbers were still never below 300
1 can fancy feast classic chicken in am and same in evening
He is hungry all day, urination levels still elevated
Click to expand...

Chris...I'm relatively new to the feline diabetic challenge but an additional thought...it looks from your initial post that you have tested Max a bunch in a day. As you probably know the BG level can be pushed up by stress in the animal. If Max seems stressed or annoyed by all the testing this may be happening and somewhat inflating the numbers. Also keep in mind that if you start feeding Max multiple times a day and then testing within say about an hour to an hour and half after eating his BG will also be higher. You might ask your vet about testing less maybe at 4/8/12 hour intervals.
Hang in there Chris and Max!!!
 
You just haven't found the breakthrough dose yet.

If you are feeding dry food, even if it's the perscription food, that's the first thing to change. Makes a huge difference. Please don't increase by whole units, at most raise by a half unit at a time or you risk missing the best dose.


Do you test daily or just for curves?
 
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Janet's right, you haven't found the breakthrough dose. Some cats need more insulin than others. My cat is on 8.5u and needs an increase. The way to get him regulated is to home test and record the numbers in our spreadsheet. We'll be able to see what's going on and be better able to help you. If you need help setting it up, just ask and we'll do it for yo
 
I suspected same thing as Larry and Kitties, post #5. Thinking he should "start over" with 1.0U and slowly increase, like we suggested for 2 other Prozinc members :)

*Emphasizing this is just an opinion* :)
 
Thanks everyone for the support
Waiting for his vet to call back she is wanting him to go to an internalist for further testing. I'm requesting a lower dose as his numbers were better on 3.0U
 
JanetNJ said:
You just haven't found the breakthrough dose yet.

If you are feeding dry food, even if it's the perscription food, that's the first thing to change. Makes a huge difference. Please don't increase by whole units, at most raise by a half unit at a time or you risk missing the best dose.


Do you test daily or just for curves?
Click to expand...
No dry at all no prescription either we did try Glycobalance for a while in the beginning but quickly got off it. I used to test 3-4 times daily majority of testing is for curves but do spot check
 
So return call from his Vet
She thinks it's beyond her class of veterinary medicine and wants us to go to an internal medicine specialist. Before we go that route I told her I want to have his T4 run to rule out thyroid issues she agreed to that
But when I asked if lowering his dose of PZI she said not to even after expressing that I thought it may be to high ANY THOUGHTS WITH THIS WOULD BE GREAT
HERE IS MAX WITH HIS BFF SIMBA BACK WHEN HE WAS BETTER
IMG_1203.PNG
 
Hi Chris, and welcome! First of all, I'm sorry Max is having a tough time right now, but please know that you've found an incredibly wise and caring place. There is a ton of information to be found here, and a lot of great people who have been dealing with feline diabetes for a long time.

I agree with Yong that lowering the dose, and getting some consistent BG tests done will help get a better idea of what's going on with Max, and help you find a dose that will help him feel better. There are two possible reasons you're seeing those numbers (well, more than two, but two that are most likely). First, the dose is too high. It was increased quickly and he may actually need a lower dose. Second, the dose is too low, and you haven't found his "breakthrough" dose yet. Both of these options were mentioned above. Unfortunately, there is no crystal ball to tell which one it is. Insulin doses that are too high and too low often look the same, especially when we're just looking at one curve.

If you can link up the spreadsheet that Yong pointed you to above, it will really help. Most of us have one linked in our signatures, so you can see what they look like. The color coding happens automatically - you just need a google or gmail account, and you can start putting in any and all data you have. Seeing that will help give a clearer picture of what Max needs.

If getting that setup is overwhelming, just ask, and we have people who can do it for you, and help you get it linked.

Also, there are forums on here for each type of insulin. You might want to pop into the Prozinc forum and introduce yourself. That will be the place to get the most specific information and help about your particular insulin.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/prozinc-pzi.24/

And finally, both of your kitties are beautiful!!! I love that picture with them snuggled up!
 
Chris123 said:
So return call from his Vet
She thinks it's beyond her class of veterinary medicine and wants us to go to an internal medicine specialist. Before we go that route I told her I want to have his T4 run to rule out thyroid issues she agreed to that
But when I asked if lowering his dose of PZI she said not to even after expressing that I thought it may be to high ANY THOUGHTS WITH THIS WOULD BE GREAT
HERE IS MAX WITH HIS BFF SIMBA BACK WHEN HE WAS BETTER
View attachment 27716
Click to expand...
Ultimately you hold the syringe and can decide what you think is best. You don't need the vets permission to try a lower dose and see what happens. If you want to try lowering it for a few days and go ahead. If it's still in the 300's after a few days increase again.

Personally I think he's become a bit insulin resistant after being high for so long and may need an increase or two. Once that breakthrough dose is reached it will make an impact and will be not too long after have to be lowered. He's going on six months of high numbers now. But does it hurt to try a lower dose for a few days and record the data? Not at all.

Please fill out all the info into the ss so we can better advise you.

I am looking at your signature... Are you feeding him 4 candidate of fancy feast a day? Or are they smaller amounts mid day?

BTW super beautiful cats!
 
JanetNJ said:
Ultimately you hold the syringe and can decide what you think is best. You don't need the vets permission to try a lower dose and see what happens. If you want to try lowering it for a few days and go ahead. If it's still in the 300's after a few days increase again.

Personally I think he's become a bit insulin resistant after being high for so long and may need an increase or two. Once that breakthrough dose is reached it will make an impact and will be not too long after have to be lowered. He's going on six months of high numbers now. But does it hurt to try a lower dose for a few days and record the data? Not at all.

Please fill out all the info into the ss so we can better advise you.

I am looking at your signature... Are you feeding him 4 candidate of fancy feast a day? Or are they smaller amounts mid day?

BTW super beautiful cats!
Click to expand...
Hi Janet
Thanks for the info,.....he is getting 4 cans of fancy feast a day he is just so hungry he would eat so much more if we gave it to him
Is it ok to drop doses by whole units or should it be slowly dropped I was looking back at old # and with 3.0 he was mid to low 300s once 290
 
Chris123 said:
Hi Janet
Thanks for the info,.....he is getting 4 cans of fancy feast a day he is just so hungry he would eat so much more if we gave it to him
Is it ok to drop doses by whole units or should it be slowly dropped I was looking back at old # and with 3.0 he was mid to low 300s once 290
Click to expand...
You don't have to wean off it. You can drop it if that's the approach you want to try.


The reason I ask about the food is I was looking to see if those mud day flat numbers are actually food induced numbers.
 
Chris123 said:
Hi Janet
Thanks for the info,.....he is getting 4 cans of fancy feast a day he is just so hungry he would eat so much more if we gave it to him
Is it ok to drop doses by whole units or should it be slowly dropped I was looking back at old # and with 3.0 he was mid to low 300s once 290
Click to expand...
Do you feel like he is underweight? Or just right?

For myself I started seeing real progress when I switched my cats diet to ff classic morning and night and the rest of the time let her feed on Young Again Zero carb food. It took away all the food induced numbers and finally got her numbers down. The food is nutrient dense and high in calories so they eat less of it because it's filling get. It is also around just 1% carb so it didn't raise her bg at all.
 
Chris123 said:
Hi Janet
Thanks for the info,.....he is getting 4 cans of fancy feast a day he is just so hungry he would eat so much more if we gave it to him
Is it ok to drop doses by whole units or should it be slowly dropped I was looking back at old # and with 3.0 he was mid to low 300s once 290
Click to expand...
JanetNJ said:
Do you feel like he is underweight? Or just right?

For myself I started seeing real progress when I switched my cats diet to ff classic morning and night and the rest of the time let her feed on Young Again Zero carb food. It took away all the food induced numbers and finally got her numbers down. The food is nutrient dense and high in calories so they eat less of it because it's filling get. It is also around just 1% carb so it didn't raise her bg at all.
Click to expand...

his back bone is more pronounced the past 2 weeks
Those original #i posted we're during a curve with only feeding 1 can at both injection times which have 4 grams of carbs
 
Hi everyone
So for the past month Max has been the same still high BG 400+ levels just did a complete vitals work up on him just got the results all organ functions are good t4 levels also good only thing was a uti starting a 10 day cycle of antibiotics
My question is can a uti cause resistance with insulin s other infections can
I'm hoping this is the case
 
JanetNJ said:
The reason I ask about the food is I was looking to see if those mud day flat numbers are actually food induced numbers.
Click to expand...
Phoebe eats about a 1/2 can or 1.5 ounces every 2 hours. I am guessing her numbers are muddled by food? But she won't eat the YA. She did like the Dr. Eelseys clean protein chicken food. It's about 17.00 a bag. She is underweight. Weighs 13.4 pounds needs 2 lbs.
 
Chris123 said:
uti cause resistance with insulin s other infections
Click to expand...

I haven't heard of causing a resistance but have heard that it can raise the BG levels like any other infection.

Are you still home testing? Did you had a chance to considering doing up a spreadsheet as mentioned above? In order for us to help out, we need to see history, trends, patterns etc. It is the best tool for you and for the board members to be able to maybe help you finding the right dose.
 
Phoebes said:
Phoebe eats about a 1/2 can or 1.5 ounces every 2 hours. I am guessing her numbers are muddled by food? But she won't eat the YA. She did like the Dr. Eelseys clean protein chicken food. It's about 17.00 a bag. She is underweight. Weighs 13.4 pounds needs 2 lbs.
Click to expand...
Phoebe is an unusual case with multiple things going on. Was she tested for acromegaly?
 
Chris, if you continue to see no changes as you increase insulin, ask the internal medicine vet about testing for IAA & IGF-1 (Acromegaly) at some point. Approx 1/4 of diabetic cats have this condition which causes insulin resistance. Michican State University does these tests and your internist hopefully is familiar with these conditions. I was told to get the test done when we hit 6u, glad I did and discovered Bronx did have Acromegaly. It's great that you found this board to help Max.
 
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JanetNJ said:
You just haven't found the breakthrough dose yet.
Click to expand...
I know that's oversimplifying things but sometimes everything else appears normal and Noah's meter goes off the scale and I have to give him 8 (yes, eight!) units, then he goes back to being a "normal" cat. Obviously a different cat and different insulin. Noah has other issues too numerous to mention here but he was scrawny and getting worse and then just magically got his weight back. His loss of weight made his back look terrible.
@Bronx's dad has a good point. The school will have a big website and if your vet is unfamiliar with the test they can help. I believe a high percentage of Maine Coons have this condition.
 
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