Linus, 4/26 more of the same 4/27 update

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Dragonfly229

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Last night (well, this morning at 5:00) +10 was 394. I fed him 1/2 can of Surf & Turf and went to work. Pierre tested at 7:00 for AMPS, he was 319. Gotta like that, right? 1 (small) can Sophisticats flaked trout for breakfast. Then at +9.5 when I got home - back up to 408, gave him 1/2 can of Before Grain Beef. PMPS just now, 441 :shock: In 4 months we have managed to go absolutely nowhere.

I feel like it's the grass he's eating outside, or maybe his morning shots aren't really great (Pierre is really trying, and getting better). We have eliminated the dog food possibility. I don't have an easy way to keep him in the house because of the dog door, and I really want him to be able to be outside - he's really good about staying close to the house and loves to lay on the deck and watch the birds (hummingbirds came back this week :smile: ).

Thanks for letting me vent, and as always, input appreciated.
 
Re: Linus, 4/26 more of the same-discouraged

Wonder about trying a reboot...even with all the increases he still runs pretty flat and the numbers haven't gotten better, except for the odd low long cycle. Maybe the optimal dose was less than 1u? Maybe I'm crazy though.
 
Re: Linus, 4/26 more of the same-discouraged

I am not a dosing expert, but I would decrease. You have increased & it hasn't done much. Why keep trying the same thing & expect different results? If you try a decrease give it some cycles. The hormones have to clear the system. Are you testing for ketones? If not then you might want to start. Because Linus has had some higher numbers for a long period of time.

One other suggestion....try one type of food for awhile with the same carb count. It might help with his numbers too. Linus might be one of those supper sensitive to carbs & all it takes is a 2-3% carb difference & it show in his BG numbers. The Before Grain beef is really good. It has good numbers across the board as for nutrional values. This is just my option but the Sophicat brand I called it mystery food. There were ingredients I didn't like in it. I know many members feed their cats it & get good results with it. It's just not a food for Baxter.

When I give Baxter to much insulin...we get pancakes.
 
Re: Linus, 4/26 more of the same-discouraged

Thanks for the input. I've thought about the food issue, believe me, I read every label on that Sophisticat stuff and this is the only one I will buy. Unfortunately, Linus LOVES it. I give him a can for his midnight snack. Pierre has been using it to gain some cooperation on the morning tests, he has a harder time than I do.
The last time I bought food I really tried to keep it to the lower carb varieties of Merrick, and I am adding more and more of the BG to the mix.

I am thinking about doing a reduction, I'm not sure exactly to where. We've never been below 1u, do you think we would see results there after not seeing anything between 1u and 2.4u? I am also worried about ketones, especially if we reduce the insulin. Linus prefers not to use his litterbox if he can go in the great outdoors, so I haven't gotten a test since the weather got nice. I am watching him closely for any symptoms, I know it's something that can come on quickly.
 
Re: Linus, 4/26 more of the same-discouraged

I don't have any experience with the reboot, but I know an increase followed by a drastic reduction can knock something loose.

Lu is having better numbers after reducing.

Sue is back and I'm sure she'll be along shortly....especially if you change your title and put Sue in it!
 
Re: Linus, 4/26 more of the same-discouraged

I have been looking at Linus' spreadsheet, Sue and I have no brilliant ideas. I think I suggested a reboot before and you went down to 1 unit, got a couple decent numbers but no real trend. That seems to be his overall pattern. You get an occasional blue (out of the blue) but no lasting patterns. I like the idea of staying with one food for a while. We do have some cats (like Henry and Angela) who showed lower numbers when food was reduced - assuming that they were really eating too much.

Any chance he gets into a neighbor's yard and eats contraband?

You can always try a lower dose for a few cycles (whatever you are comfortable with. I understand the ketone concern and would up those tests) to see if you see better numbers. The higher doses don't seem to have given you any better numbers......

Some cats do seem to take months to settle into PZI and then show much better numbers. Some respond right away. Some don't respond at all and do better on another insulin. The biggest headache for us to try to figure out which is which. Linus doesn't give us many clues.
 
Re: Linus, 4/26 more of the same-discouraged

Sophistacat, now 'Great Choice' canned sends KT's BG soaring.....they dropped the price, I THOUGHT it was about the same as the Friskies but it's not. Took me about 2 weeks of high numbers to put 2 and 2 together and not come up with 5! :roll:

No dosing help here...we're not PZI but we're all still 'extra sweet'.... :-D
 
AMPS was again 319 after a +10 of 395 and breakfast 2 hours before. It isn't unusual for him to drop instead of rise in this period, but the amount of the drop is more than usual. This is 2 days in a row with almost identical numbers. Very low carb food fed both times at +10, 1/2 can Surf&Turf yesterday (3%) and 1/2 can BG beef this morning.

I'm sure Pierre went ahead with 2.4u this morning, we haven't talked about reducing. Nobody home until at least +10, so no way of knowing what happens today, and his +10 numbers have been high.

All I can see from his spreadsheet is that we initially get some better numbers with an increase, and then jump into red pre-shots. I liked what was happening at 2.2u, the only reason I increased is that even though the numbers were lower and the curves were better, it wasn't low enough. It didn't seem like I should stay there if I could barely get him into the mid-200's.

I still think grass eating could be a factor - the research I've done shows that fructan and soluble carbohydrate levels can be in the neighborhood of 15-18% at this time of year. And he is higher PMPS, after being outside during the day. I don't believe he's finding contraband elsewhere, we live on 5 acres with no real close neighbors. I'll check with my neighbor across the highway, I know he has a cat and may have dry food out, to see if he's seen Linus down there. It's about 1/4 mile - that's a lot of exercise for a cat who likes to lay on the deck. I have seen him in the corral with the horses - I haven't seen him eating anything like leftover feed.
 
I still think grass eating could be a factor - the research I've done shows that fructan and soluble carbohydrate levels can be in the neighborhood of 15-18% at this time of year. And he is higher PMPS, after being outside during the day.
Now that is interesting research, Sue. Have you posted anything about it in Health? Most people probably won't have much of an idea, but there could be some who have seen like results, or maybe somebody that can back up the science. There's all sorts of people here, and I don't know what very many of them do for a living, but I'll bet somebody has a degree in botany or something. If this turns out to be the reason, it would be valuable knowledge for anyone who has a sugar cat that goes outdoors....come to think of it, I know Lori's Copper spends time outside, and she's mentioned him eating grass too. Maybe this would help her figure out Copper's numbers on the days he spends some time chasing the birds and moles and eating grass. She has expressed concern that the animals he catches and eats might be boosting his BG, but most of what he's catching should fall into the "low carb" category.

Carl
 
My cats are "city dwellers" in our little town, regular city streets in a grid pattern typical of the 1890s and early 20th century...I live on the corner, where there's a stoplight, and a fair amt of traffic during business hours.

Stanley, appeared at a friend's house 2 blocks away, trying to eat their kibble, but got run off by their outside cats; the next day he showed up at another neighbor's house 1.5 blocks the other direction, then at my house, where he stayed. He's probably my most well-traveled boy.

Sandy and (GA) Blackie were born under the house next door (behind me). They spent most of their lives in the rafters of my garage or on my front porch. They never strayed far. Unfortunately, Blackie was Leukemia + before I could get him trapped and neutered, but Sandy still goes out occasionally. He mainly sits at the base of the pine tree looking upward, but sometimes goes to the garage, sits on the porch, or occasionally lies in the shade under the neighbor's back porch. Moochie, who may actually be their litter mate, has snuck out on a few occasions. At Christmas, he went out while the dogs were coming in for the petsitter. Robert was totally upset, but Moochie just hung out next door, and when I got home, he came to the front porch and back in. My point is, they don't seem to go very far. Food at another location, might be enticing enough for them to keep coming back, but probably more likely if they weren't eating regularly.

I test AMPS, feed & shoot, typically all at +12, but have noticed if I get up early or in the middle of the night, and he convinces me to give him some food, his BG drops by AMPS too. If I give him a mid-cycle meal, I can count on a lower AMPS. Likewise, when I give fluids, I generally see lower preshots as well.

I have pretty much held to FF Chicken and Turkey/Giblets, as they are about 3-4% carbs. One day of the same, then switch for the next. Every once in a while I'll throw in one of the seafood flavors - typically 0 carb - at the time I'm doing fluids... kinda as a treat. I don't think his face leaves the bowl until it's clean! I tried to remove as many variables as possible from the mix. My quantities are still varied, so I konw that's a part of my numbers. Normally 1 or 2 cans at AMPS; one at lunch w/ fluids. Today no fluids at lunch, but I gave him 1/3 can just to tide him over. He would've eaten at least one or more cans while he was on the higher dose.

I wish I could do like Libby does, and split the food into 4 equal servings and consistently give every 6 hours. I think ideally, that removes as many variables as possible, but I think Grayson needs more food than that. Since opening the new vial, I also think his food spike has been reduced.

One last thing... I e-mailed the manufacturer regarding the %age drop one should expect w/ ProZinc... just in case the 50-60% is one of those numbers we see here enough that it's become "a rule". Maybe (?) that's not the case? Hoping to hear back "from the horse's mouth". Maybe our pancake eaters aren't really that far from the norm! That's my hope anyways!!!

Just a bunch of different thoughts on a Friday afternoon... Hoping Linus' [and Grayson's] numbers start making us happier! ...in the meantime, Jenn's waffles sure look good! :lol:
 
Catannc said:
Here's the actual trial data if anyone has the time to go through it, gives average nadir and mean glucose at day 0, 7, 14, 10, 45.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... OFOED2rXjA

Cathy - That's the 7 pages I've got printed out that I need to sit down and read with fresh eyes. Hasn't happened yet today! Other than the graphs, I didn't see any text that really spoke to the %age drop from preshot to nadir. That's what I'm looking for. If you saw it and I missed it, please let me know where! Thx!
 
Everyone should read that study if you haven't, and read it again if you have. I've read it a dozen times easy. Lots of good information, but there were a couple of what I would call "flaws" in the protocol itself. It's purpose was to determine if Prozinc was a suitable replacement for the PZI that was discontinued rather than to test to see what sort of remission rate you would expect. And it succeeds on that level. But in a few cases, the way kitties are managed "here" is better than the way they managed them in the study. And their conclusion of "success" wasn't remission.

I hope you hear something back that we can use to better understand things, Lu. There are several "rules" on the overall board that fall into the "it's a rule mostly because people say it all the time" category. Anything we can nail down is going to help everyone in the long run.

Carl
 
Mean and median values is what you see Lu.
That's one of the frustrating things about the data. It worked for their purposes, but what are we supposed to do with "median nadir 237.5"? The actual nadir numbers ranged from 19 to 601, but all you see is the lowest, the highest, and the one smack dab in the middle. "Mean" would be more useful, since at least it the average number.
When they do give you the mean (average) it includes the "standard deviation":
MEAN =/- SD =
So for the nadir number, for instance, you get 138 +/- 108 after 45 days of testing. OK, now we're on to something.....until you look at the "SD" math....
The mean and the standard deviation of a set of data are usually reported together. In a certain sense, the standard deviation is a "natural" measure of statistical dispersion if the center of the data is measured about the mean. This is because the standard deviation from the mean is smaller than from any other point. The precise statement is the following: suppose x1, ..., xn are real numbers and define the function:


Even if you just look at it as "ok, 138 =/- 108", that tells you the nadir could have been anywhere between 30 and 246. Not exactly what I had in mind for "what can I expect the nadir to look like?" :shock: How about just give me a single number????

So yes, I hope they answer your questions without burying us in "hypotheticals"! Why can't mad scientists just publish information for us simple folk instead of directed towards their peers??? I'm thinking a little less "A Beautiful Mind" and a little more "Rainman"....."about a hundred dollars, yeah" ohmygod_smile
Carl
 

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Carl - that was why I asked the question - AND why I said I need fresh eyes. Been 25 years since I've taken a math or calculus class! And I wasn't that good at it even then!
 
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