Lee Lu Update - Consistently High PS's - UGH

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pandabur

Member Since 2014
Hi All,
Sorry I have been absent here. Lee Lu has been giving me quite a fit lately. After increased inappropriate peeing, I took her to the vet on 1/8 to have her checked out for UTI. Results, no UTI but the vet said I was underdosing her (I was at 0.75) so I increased to 1.25 for 7 cycles to get more angry reds and blacks, and then up to 1.50 for 10 cycles only to get more angry reds and blacks. All the while, more inappropriate pee every night and sometimes during the day. Not box avoidance as far as I can tell b/c she was using the box just as much as not.
So, I am going to do a curve today but I'm going against the vet's advice and bringing her back down to 0.5u for 10 cycles come hell or high water. Going to buy blood ketone strips and a 2nd meter to test those while we are reducing her dose. I'm hoping I can buy them locally, if not, will order today and get them by Tuesday.

Any advise or feedback on her SS would be great. I'm frustrated as all hell but it is what it is. I'm not giving up yet. This just gives me motivation to find a solution. I hate that I cannot figure out and fix her!!!
 
it's really hard to know what to suggest, Amanda. Let me throw out a few thoughts for you to consider.

I see you started new insulin on 12/20. While she was already having some pink numbers by then, she definitely got worse after that point. Where did you buy your insulin and do you have another pen/vial that you can switch to and see if it makes any difference? Often when we suspect the insulin, it's just fine, but we just had a situation this past week where Ozgood's insulin had come from Wedgewood Pharmacy and had been repackaged and was definitely bad. When they switched to a new 1ml vial it looked like they were shooting water and nothing was happening. In some ways, that's what it looks like with Lee Lu. As though she's not getting insulin at all right now. Insulin should come only in 10ml vials or 3ml pens or cartridges from Lantus. Some people are buying from Canada, off of Craigslist or elsewhere. You increase your risk of something going wrong if it's bought anywhere except directly from a local human pharmacy.

Are you familiar with Glucose Toxicity? When I look at Lee Lu's ss, I see that in November she was doing really well at about 1.5u. So I wouldn't assume at all that 1.5u is too high. Once a cat gets into higher numbers and their body gets used to it, going up in dose is about the only way to bring them back down again. How she was in November is a world away from how she is now, and even if the 0.5u was a good dose in December, once her body has gotten used to these high numbers, typically the only way to overcome glucose toxicity is to go up in dose until you hit a breakthrough.

Another thought is that it's still possible she's going low at night and bouncing every day. Some cats do that. Wendy's Neko earned all of her dose reductions in the night cycle for months - for her, not just night, but really early morning. My guess is what you're thinking by saying you want to reduce the dose is that you think Lee Lu is overdosed, and that is what's causing her high numbers. That is possible, too.

It's also possible that she's underdosed now. When I look back at how well she was doing on 1.5u in November, and then she worked down the dosing scale until she lost regulation at about 12/7 at 0.5u.

The other factor here is the peeing. It's possible she doesn't have an infection, but instead has sterile cystitis. That is fairly common and can cause pain and inflammation, but it is not an infection. Pain relief (bupe) and fluids to dilute her urine are helpful for it. Look here at "Where Can I Find?" and scroll to the bottom and look for UTI's by Dr. Lisa for some help on that topic. It may be that her urinary issue is directly connected to the blood sugar issue.

If I were guessing, I'd think that she was being dosed appropriately in November. Something happened in December - she developed a UTI and/or the insulin isn't effective like it should be, and then she's not getting enough insulin after that. Skootching up in dose rarely works - instead of going from 0.5u to 0.65u, if you need an increase it often works better to go by 0.25u increments. I think at that point she likely has developed Glucose Toxicity.

If she were mine, I'd read the info above, talk to the vet about sterile cystitis and getting pain relief for her. I'd also switch to another thing of insulin, but I wouldn't reduce the dose. I know the relaxed group was in love with resetting the dose, but i've rarely (never) seen it work. From the Tilly Diabetes Page, "don't do so-called rebound checks, as they only lead to unnecessary (and unhealthy) hyperglycemia."

Phase 2: Increasing the dose
Most cats need to have their dose increased. Do it in 0.25 IU or 0.5 IU steps (0.25 IU if the cat is getting a low dose and/or relatively low BGs, 0.5 IU if the cat is getting a higher dose and/or relatively high BGs). Hold each dose for 5-7 days. However, if the cat is producing continuously high BGs (nadir always >=300 mg/dl), only hold the dose for 2-3 days before increasing it by 0.5 IU. Alternatively, if the cat is continuously producing moderately elevated BGs (nadir always >=200 mg/dl), increase the dose every 2-3 days by 0.25 IU ( if the cat is getting a low dose) or 0.5 IU (if the cat is getting a higher dose). From this point onward test for ketones once per week, or more often if the nadirs are still >=200 mg/dl.

Many cats will occasionally react to an increased dose with increased BGs - within the first 2 to 3 days after an increase, usually lasting for less than 24 hours. Nobody really knows what the reason for this phenomenon is (perhaps a "panicky liver"?) - hold the dose and ignore the fluctuations.

It is likely, because of the way Lantus and Levemir work (they appear to work for >12 hours, therefore producing overlap between doses), you will face the problem of having a low pre-shot BG and wondering what dose you should give. Try reducing the dose the first few times to see what happens - in all likelihood the cat will have higher BGs as a result. A second alternative is to feed the cat, wait 1 to 2 hours, test again, and when the BGs start rising, give the normal dose. A third alternative is to split the dose: feed the cat, give most of the dose immediately and give the remainder 1 to 2 hours later when the BGs start rising. However, in most cats none of these alternatives have shown themselves to work as well as consistent dosing. You will have to learn how your cat reacts to Lantus/Levemir before you determine the best way to deal with this problem.

Try to find a way to dose as consistently as possible, time-wise and dose-wise: sliding scales don't work. Don't skip shots. Fluctuations are very common in this phase before BGs start to stabilize under consistent dosing: a typical curve of cat over the first 1.5 months on Lantus can be seen here.

When the cat first begins to have daily nadirs in the normal range of a healthy cat (50 to 80 mg/dl) and spends significant amounts of time in this range each day, stop increasing the dose and switch to Phase 3. It doesn't matter when you measure these lower BGs, it can be at pre-shot or sometime between shots. Getting to this point generally takes 1 month, sometimes a lot longer. Cats are extremely variable in terms of the maximum dose they end up requiring: they have ranged from 0.5 IU to 10.0 IU BID in the German forum, with most cats lying between 1.0 IU and 5.0 IU BID.


Be aware that experimental studies in human diabetics over the last 15-20 have rejected the existence of the Somogyi effect (sometimes also called rebound). In cats, no studies have ever been done which properly demonstrate that such a phenomenon exists. Therefore, adjust the dose as described above, focusing on the nadir: don't do so-called rebound checks, as they only lead to unnecessary (and unhealthy!) hyperglycemia.

Hopefully, this has given you some things to consider that will help you get Lee Lu back into better control. Keep asking questions, Amanda! She'll get there.
 
Julie - I bought her insulin pens at Marc's pharmacy in Canada. This has been a thought - that the insulin batch is bad or compromised - but I don't know how to test it. The insulin was chilled when it arrived as the cold pack kept it chilly. How would I test the insulin for its effectiveness? Is there a way?

I guess one of my questions was why she keeps getting higher with the higher doses? I would think she would decease as the dose increases, not increase = increase. The vet said at 1.5, she didnt think there could be a Somogyi effect, not until one gets to a much higher dose, but I'm at a loss. She's acting just like pre-Dx with her water intake/output, inappropriate pee, and BG levels. Her "5 P's behavior" is fine though.
 
Do you have more pens in the box? If so, I'd bring out another pen and use it for a couple of days to see if it makes a difference. I know a lot of people are having success buying from other sources, but anytime you're shipping insulin there is the risk of it freezing or becoming compromised in some way.

If you try the new pen and the numbers say the same thing, that tells you the problem isn't pen #1. There's still a question of whether or not it's the entire box, of course.

If you try the new pen and you see a change with improved BGs, then that might point to the pen #1 being compromised.

Giving a higher dose doesn't mean that numbers come down, necessarily. There are circumstances where higher doses = higher numbers: Look here in the "Where Can I Find?" post to the New to the Group sticky, click that link, then scroll to the bottom for the post on New Dose Wonkiness. There's also the possibility she's bouncing from hitting low numbers at night.

The vet is wrong about bouncing only happening at higher doses. Or perhaps he means the actual Somogyii, which we call when a cat is overdosed and we see high numbers from being overdosed. Both of those things can happen at a small dose, but we don't worry about the dose being too large if the increases have been systematic, based upon nadir tests, long enough in between dose increases and in small increments.

I'd try a new pen. I'd try buying one pen from a local source. I'd look into the sterile cystitis possibility. I'd test at night (3 nights in a row) to see if she's hitting low numbers at night. The more information you get from trying out these different things the easier it will be for you to rule out things and decide which thing IS causing the high numbers.
 
All the pens are from Marks, with the same batch #. I already started the dose reduction process (this AM), so I am not sure if trying a new pen will be effective at the same time. If I did try a new pen and just consider this morning a "fur shot" with the one reduced dose, how quickly would I see a change if the pen is the issue?
 
Hi Amanda!

If the pen WAS the problem, you'd have to wait at least 3 days and see how she does on the 1.5 dose (but I tend to agree with Julie that "something" changed and now you're probably dealing with some glucose toxicity). It's definitely worth a try though to see if there's something wrong with that first pen.
If I remember right, you received it within about a week of ordering and I know they're saying they won't ship it if the weather between them and you looks like it might freeze on the way, so I just don't think that's it

The other thing (and I'm sorry but I haven't looked back through all your posts) is that if at all possible, you need to be getting at least a "before bed" test in every PM cycle. It's possible she's going lower at night and then bouncing back high. Getting those tests in will help a lot in figuring out what might be going on
 
Hard to say how long. If your pen #1 is good and you gave a reduced dose this morning then returned to the previous dose tonight, it would be like Chris said. You'd see the effects within 3 days.

however if the pen number 1 is bad and you go to a new pen tonight, and pen #2 is effective and pen #1 was bad, then you might see a change immediately. It's hard to know. Some cats take a while to show effects of a new dose, and some show it immediately. That's why when a cat starts on insulin we say to hold the dose for 5 to 7 days so you can see what the dose does but in the meantime you still are testing about every 3 hours. Some cats respond immediately when they go on insulin. Some of them take longer and the depot has to build up before you see a change.

So there isn't a clean answer, I don't think, to your question.
 
Julie - true - I have to decide if I want to do one or the other, dose reduction or pen swap... Yes, the shipment was pretty quick and we did not have a major freeze or heatwave, fortunately they are fairly close as I'm in Seattle. The chill pack did leak slightly on one corner of the pen box, but I doubt it affected anything as it was in the 40s the whole time. Good thing to order in the winter :)

Chris - I can try for the +2 PMPS test but I feed between PMPS and going to bed, so +2 would be post-meal. But any data is good data as long as its documented.
 
it doesn't matter if you've fed before the +2. The only importance of that is when you're trying to decide if a preshot number is high enough to be safe to shoot. Other than that, don't worry about the feeding part.

Another option if you go to bed soon after shooting is to catch a pm cycle test as soon as you wake up in the morning. For dosing purposes, it doesn't matter that much when in the cycle it is - if she's low, it should show up on one end or the other of your night's sleep. And by low, i don't necessarily mean dangerously low, a cat can bounce from any range below what they are used to.
 
Just my opinion, but I'd go back to the 1.5 and try the new pen....if it still doesn't make any difference, than we will have answered one very important piece of the puzzle and can go from there
 
I see that you have decided to stay with the reduced dose.

  • Please check for ketones obsessively until Lee Lu's numbers start to come down. Any increase in ketones is something you'll want to jump right on.
  • Please please please make a habit of getting spot checks before you do dose increases. Include at least one night check on each dose, but preferably one on at least two different nights, in addition to your periodic daytime tests. Since you have taken the risk of decreasing the dose, take advantage of this opportunity to be 100% confident about each dose increase so you will never ever have to doubt your dose again.
I'm not saying that I think you should take a long time between increases. I don't - my preference would be to see you follow the protocol fairly aggressively, but that's your choice. I just think that you should make a point of getting various spot checks before you increase because that will give you confidence. Cats do not become over dose if their dose is arrived at honestly. You mostly did that on the way up from 0.5u, though there were a couple of spots where you did tiny increases without spot checks. I do not believe Lee Lu is over dose because for the most part your dose increases made sense. Obviously you are still questioning, so my advice is to be sure to remove those question marks this time. That way whatever dose Lee Lu winds up needing, you'll be comfortable that it is correct.
 
For what it's worth, have had a box of pens wherein 4 of the 5 pens was fine and one was compromised in some way.

I agree that it looks like something changed in mid-December. If you're not already adding water to Lee Lu's food, I would do so. Did the vet run any routine blood work or get a sterile urine sample? re you adding anything like Dr. Elsey's Cat Attract to her litter? Have you looked at the obvious -- where the box is located (not near a washing machine or anything that makes noise), it's not a covered box, the box itself isn't retaining a urine smell, etc.

As for the dosing, I want to underscore Libby's suggestions. Getting some additional spot checks, especially if you are planning on increasing the dose, are so important.
 
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