le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increase

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Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Kathryn
You said you are shooting the R doses "IM". What muscle are you shooting into? And did the vet show you how to draw back on the the syringes once it is "in" to make sure there is no blood coming back into the needle? Bob got over 100 IM injections of PZI, and I only hit "blood" one time, but it can happen.

Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Hello Everyone,
many thanks to all who responded with the great information for Kathryn and Snowflake. I don't know if I'm able to express what my heart feels: your generosity of time and clarity of expression is much appreciated. I've learned a lot, as I keep forgetting that low BG numbers can also mean ketones. I'd send each and everyone of you a PM but my computer is having issues today so I keep losing my WIFI connection. Thanks!!!

Kathryn, so glad to see you and Snowflake have made progress. You're doing a splendid job. And so is your little munchkin!! You got her when you were a child! You two must be so attached to one another. Lovely! I'll be 70 in September and remember a lot of wondrously wonderful kitties in my life. Yet, the one I remember very clearly is my first one, his name was Purry. Not that I loved him the most, though maybe I did. Just remember him with great fondness.

Take care Sweetie. Best wishes, Sophie
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Agreed--thank you everyone for your time and concern! I realize my tone might come off a little defensive at times, so I want to make sure I say thank you :)

I just got home (once she started eating I decided that I needed to get out of the house, so I went to the movies with a friend for a while. When I got home she was 222, so I gave her 0.6u of ProZinc. To clarify, before, I was NOT overlapping prozinc and the R, when I gave the first R shot, it had been 13 hours since her last dose of prozinc. Tonight I'll keep testing and if she gets above 250 after +3, I'll do a micro dose of R to tap it back down, and know to give more prozinc next time.

Bob, I am doing the im shots into the muscle on her back between her ribs and hips with a tiny little 31 gauge needle, and I am drawing back to see if there's a vein (I ride horses and at the barn they do injections frequently, so I'm relatively familiar with how they generally work). Thanks for checking though :)

And Snowflake is actually my second or third cat--My very first cat was the wonderful family cat we had when I was born, Suzy, who lived to a ripe old age of 17 and she will always hold a special place in my heart of what a cat is *supposed* to be. My second cat was Flowers (yes, with an "s"--I named her when I was 5...). She was the first cat that was "my" cat, but sadly passed away at 7 from kidney failure. I got my two girls now the summer after Flowers passed away, when I was 11, so I've had them for more than half my life up to this point. I love them to tears, but no one tells you how much cats with impact your life later on, when you're 11 years old... (re: getting apartments, going back to grad school, moving abroad, etc).
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Good evening Kathryn,
do not hesitate to post any questions, you might have. Tonight more members are aware of the difficulties you are facing and might be checking up on you. Last night, I didn't post a clear enough message on the Lantus Tight Regulation forum but they were much too nice to say anything publicly.

How's Snowflake doing? Don't want to place extra burdens on you, but post anything you want: questions, doubts, needs for hugs and support, or sighs! It will all be welcome. OK?

I'm so happy you reminisced a bit. Kids come up with the best names. Elegantly simple and to the point! My Purry followed my sister and me to school and at around the half way mark he'd turn around and go back home. We never determined how he learned this.

Holding you and Snowflake in a tight hug all through the night. All my best, Sophie
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Hi Kathryn -

Still having computer problems, so I've been scarce again... Looks like you got up w/ many experienced folks, including Nancy & Payne w/ the DKA & R experience, and several others. Thanks to all of them!!!

When Grayson had the moderate ketones, I stayed on top of them w/ fluids, but no R. I continued the increases (Feb 23rd if you care to see how quickly I raced up the charts, AND continued the fluids. He never stopped eating, so that was a really good thing to hold onto.

I'll reiterate what's been said above - you're doing a great job w/ Snowflake. Be sure to post updates, and anything any of us can help you with.

Lu-Ann
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

To post another update:

I don't think my 0.6 u prozinc dose last night was enough, so I gave 0.25 of r twice and when I woke up at +13 from prozinc, but +9 from r, she was at 109 and had a voracious appetite (yay) and wolfed down an entire half a can of fancy feast! I overslept so i don't know how low she got while i was asleep, but she's acting just fine so I don't think she went hypo. Tested her pee again and she's on the low side of trace, so I will take that!

I have no doubt in my mind that she's only doing this well because of the R. I don't think she would've lasted as long as it would have taken to get to the right dose of prozinc. As soon as she hits maybe 180, I'll give her a full unit of prozinc, since the 0.6 wasn't doing the job, and keep going from there.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Kathryn,
Just peeked at Snowflake's SS. You shot 1u of Prozinc at 10:45 your time, and then it looks like you gave .3u of R at +4? Can you get a +5 or +6 test? I'm just concerned that both insulins will "nadir" around +6 or so, and you might see a bigger drop than expected.

Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Hi Kathryn. Almost trace is good :thumbup

Please be careful not to shoot the R when the R would reach it's nadir at the same time as the PZI, as she could really drop fast with two insulins pulling her down at the same time.


For instance: when giving R with Lantus (and the common Lantus +6 nadir), we would try to give the R at PS time, and then the R would nadir around +2 to +3 and not at the same time as the Lantus nadir at +6. And if more R was needed, we would generally wait until after the Lantus nadir at +6, to give any more R. ECID.


Is she feeling better, acting better?
I'm glad she's eating. Keep eating, Snowflake.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

I did think about whether or not to give the R before giving it, but since her numbers were higher than her PS number (and in her history, when that happens, usually she never drops), I decided that the amount of prozinc wasn't doing anything, and she needed the help. I was heading out the door, so I couldn't delay giving it, and when I got home she was 219, so I don't think she dropped a lot. I'm going to give 1.4 prozinc for her next dose to see what happens, and will bump it up a few hours to get her closer to a 7am/7pm schedule.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Hello Kathryn,
glad to see you posting. I may have missed this info in one of your posts, but did your vet determine that Snowflake was not in DKA? On basis of what tests? I know next to nothing about DKA and ketones, so thought I'd ask for clarification and learn something. It seems to me that you have a good theoretical knowledge of ketones. How are you finding applying that theory to everyday situations, that is, theory vs practice?? As a parent, I always found the theory of child raising much easier to grasp than apply. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details! Exactly like what you wrote about experience teaching you how a kitty will affect many areas of your life later on. Can't in the beginning guess how how a given situation will unfold - its many wrinkles, curves, and zigzags.

Another thing, do you have light Karo syrup to use in hypo situations (rub on her gums, etc.)? Higher carb cat food with gravy to feed the gravy to Snowflake in a hypo? Sorry, if you posted this before. This worries me.

My WiFi keeps on disconnecting. AT&T seems to have problems in my area, so I don't know if I'll have connection later. You and Snowflake will be in my thoughts. Always, all my best wishes and many hugs, Sophie
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Kathryn
Did she eat at PMPS when you gave the 1.2u pro zinc?
Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Bob, yes, she's got a great appetite now--she's been eating pretty much whenever I put food in front of her.

I don't actually know the exact scientific details of dka, but I believe it's just basically a way of saying that her system is filled with toxins (ketones and acids) that are the byproduct of her body breaking down itself for fuel, which makes her feel sick since these toxins are damaging her internal organs/system/are too much for her little body to cleanse itself of when she's not eating or drinking.

No, there was no formal test done to determine whether or not she was in it--I'm not sure if a specific test like that exists--but she had high-moderate ketones and had stopped eating in drinking on her own. So I flushed her system with fluids and used the R to bring her diabetes in check so her system didn't have as much to deal with at once.

And yes, of course I have hc food/syrup around the house--isn't that part of insulin 101?
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Hi Kathryn,
It's Carl... Bob is the kitty, and while he does try to post occasionally, it usually looks something like this -fghtthnbxhfxjgctsyryuuQwef23 jiknbgthbyfutaugxjcihvouîhbffgbftxgcjgcigcydxfswqwcAazxerf£€¥√°± :-)

Good that she's eating well !!!
The reason I asked - the higher numbers in the first 1-3 hours after the shot are most likely from the food raising the BG before the insulin's onset. It seems to be a pattern on her SS more often than not. I totally understand you wanting to chase the higher numbers away with the R, but not sure the timing is right or safe. Adding R before the nadir of the pro zinc is risky.
I am hoping one of the experienced R users chimes in, but I seem to remember reading in other threads that the R is added when ketones are above trace as an "emergency" treatment to push the BG down to get rid of the ketones, and shot after the normal nadir of the primary insulin?
I know that in an ER environment, they give R by IM or IV, but they also are monitoring around the clock and doing IV "sugar" drips to combat the insulin as needed.
Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Kathryn:

There actually are lab values that will tell you if a cat is in DKA. Electrolyte values, specifically potassium and phosphorus, are abnormal. In addition, pH has shifted in the acidic direction (i.e., metabolic acidosis). It's why I was asking you about electrolyte values earlier. Electrolytes need to be titrated very carefully. There is a very narrow window between what's good and what's life threatening. A cat that is experiencing ketones is not necessarily in DKA. Increasing levels of ketones does markedly increase the risk for DKA developing, though.

I just want to underscore Dyana's point to be careful when giving a bolus shot of R. You need to know when the nadir from Prozinc occurs in relation to the nadir from the R. You want to avoid these overlapping otherwise, numbers can really tank. You might want to drop a note to Nancy/Payne regarding the nuances of using R with Prozinc since most of us who are stopping by are more familiar with Lantus.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Hi Kathryn. Good morning. I'm glad to hear the Snowflake is eating so well cat_pet_icon Good Girl, Snowflake.

Until you have a lot more data on how Snowflake reacts to R doses at certain times in the cycle and certain dose levels, I would be getting those hourly tests in after giving the R.

Carl is right in his concern that you don't want her to dive down too fast or too low. Just keep up the testing, okay?
Like, I would not leave the house for an extended period after giving a dose of R.
Hopefully, soon, you won't have to give any R.

This is just my opinion, others may say differently.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Good morning, Kathryn!

So glad Snowflake is eating! Thanks for the info. You strike me as a very organized person. I asked about the hypo kit because it turns out that people forget to buy them or use up their hypo kit supplies and forget to replenish. I've been on this board since January, but on at least two occasions during bad hypo situations members didn't have enough counteracting supplies. Had to rush out to the store: very scary scenario. I'm glad you called me on it though :smile: my daughter tells me that, at times (I always correct her to say "on very rare occasions :lol: ) I leave half of my reasoning in my brain ;-) !

Although my extra sweet Pudge never went hypo, when his pancreas was kicking in he went down to 46 BG. I opened 6 of my 8 cans of gravy FF. Swearing under my breath, muttering how does anyone get a teaspoon of gravy out of these %#@**** cans. Took me a while to replenish :oops: .

Hope you are getting enough rest. Best wishes to you and Snowflake, Sophie
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

:thumbup so happy to hear the ketone level is coming down and her appetite is good!
are you able to get any spot checks today?
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Oops! sorry Carl! I know better--it was just early in the morning and I was in a rush!

I actually administered the shot at the same time, as Dayna, who uses R, mentioned that that is what she does sometimes (R will peak around +2 or +3 while prozinc won't peak until +6--by that time the R will have worn off). During the week it is extremely difficult for me to get mid-cycle readings, as I work full time, so night time is really the only time I can get them.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Kathryn,
Go back and read what Dyana said again. She said, I think, that she gave the R at "PS time" so that it would peak by +2 or +3, and then be worn off by the normal insulin peak time of +6. The way I read your SS, you shot the R at +3, which means it would have peaked at +5 to +6, which is exactly when the Prozinc would have been peaking. That's what we were warning against and concerned about...the Prozinc and the R both peaking at the same time. Her liver might protect her against that for a while, but at some point it might not be able to continue to do so. If that happens, she could crash, which is really bad especially if you aren't home to catch it in the middle of the cycle. We're just scared for you and Snowflake...

Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

I did that in the context of the prozinc dose still not being enough--if you look at the difference between ps and nadir on previous days with the same dose, it was practically negligible, and each time I did that she had risen from her PS number. If she had appeared to be on a downward trajectory in any way, I wouldn't have done that.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Laser night's SS notes (you keep excellent notes, by the way :-) ), say that you gave 1u of R at PS, and another 1u of R about two and a half hours later. If that is the case, then this morning's number is encouraging, I think. The R would have been gone hours ago, so her BG really didn't skyrocket with no juice on board.
A negative ketone test right about now would be awesome to see!

Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Yes, I think last night worked out well--and thanks--once I realized you can add comments to the google doc, I was able to keep much better track of things (like adding time, etc). For those of you who don't know, you right click the cell and do insert comment, and then you can see it whenever you hover over the cell.

This morning I gave her 1.6u of Prozinc, and when I got home at +6 she was 416--so I'm just about at a point where I think it may not be the insulin for her, since she is responding to the R and apparently not at all to the prozinc. So since we're at +6 with the prozinc, I gave her a unit of R. Won't be home until later tonight, so I'll have to see how she does with it.

And last night I got a ketone reading of somewhere between trace and negative--I really couldn't tell. So I'm going to keep going with the R as long as the prozinc isn't working or until I get a new insulin. Tomorrow morning I think I'll try 2 full units of the prozinc just to see if ti does anything at all.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

While they do NOT have a 1:1 dose relationship, if you add up how much R you've given over a cycle and compare it to what you've been giving with ProZinc, I think the increase of ProZinc makes sense.

Did you ever have an x-ray or ultrasound of her bladder and kidneys? if she has any kind of stone, that could cause blood in the urine, as could interstitial cystitis.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

BJM said:
Did you ever have an x-ray or ultrasound of her bladder and kidneys? if she has any kind of stone, that could cause blood in the urine, as could interstitial cystitis.

I didn't have an ultrasound or x-ray done, as I'm really trying to keep the costs as low as possible. If money were unlimited, I'd tell them to run every test they could think of :), but it isn't. Maybe in a few pay checks once I've replenished a little savings, I'll have an x-ray or ultrasound done.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

I would try to be home to test and monitor, if I was increasing the dose like that. But, I don't know ProZinc.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Agree, and insulin type doesn't matter. Percentage wise, it's a large increase that should be monitored.
Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Well I do not have the option of staying home to test.

So my choices are, give a dose that I know does nothing (1.6u resulted in a rise of 170 from PS to +6), and expect to have to come home to give R, or give 2.0 and still come home at +6 to test and then maybe give R. Staying home to test isn't an option for me tomorrow.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

This morning I gave her 1.6u of Prozinc, and when I got home at +6 she was 416--so I'm just about at a point where I think it may not be the insulin for her, since she is responding to the R and apparently not at all to the prozinc.

I can understand you thinking that way. But just 8 weeks ago, she was responding amazingly to micro-doses of Prozinc. She was living in the blues and greens on 1u or so per day.

I know a lot has happened since then. It's just odd to me that a cat would respond so well to tiny doses at first, and go from there to where you are at right now. She's getting 4 times as much Prozinc per day, plus the R, and still giving you scary high numbers. There has to be something else besides "just diabetes" going on in her body.

I'm clueless.
Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

I don't actually know the exact scientific details of dka, but I believe it's just basically a way of saying that her system is filled with toxins (ketones and acids) that are the byproduct of her body breaking down itself for fuel, which makes her feel sick since these toxins are damaging her internal organs/system/are too much for her little body to cleanse itself of when she's not eating or drinking.

Here probably more information than you want on ketones and DKA:
Ketones and diabetes sort of go together.... here's some basic info about ketones, what they are, and how they come about in a diabetic cat:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/hodgkinsarticle3.htm
Post by Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM on a public message board, October 2000.
It is helpful to understand the whys and whens of ketones (or ketone bodies as they are sometimes called) in order to understand the answer to this (these) questions. In the animals with which we are most familiar (including people and cats), the brain's preferred fuel source is glucose. Skeletal muscle and other tissues are pretty happy using fat (triglycerides) for energy, but the brain is characteristically picky about this (and it's generally wise to give the brain what it wants!). One of insulin's chief jobs is to make sure that circulating glucose gets into the brain on demand; insulin is the molecule that "drives" glucose across the cell membrane.
When insulin is in short supply or absent, the body (and the brain) perceive that there is a shortage of glucose (even if there really isn't, as when the animal is hyperglycemic), and the brain's second and final fuel source begins to be produced, ketones. Ketones are produced by the liver from the oxidation of the body's fat stores. In conditions of true starvation (when body fat is legitimately broken down for necessary calories), or perceived starvation (hyperglycemic, uncontrolled diabetes), the liver believes it needs to produce ketones from body fat for the brain. This is the reason you see ketones in the urine of unregulated feline diabetics. You see ketosis in humans on some of the more strict high protein, low carb diets, because there is little dietary carbo to supply glucose from the g.i. tract, and the human body is not as efficient at gluconeogenesis (liver production of glucose from protein) as the cat (we have discussed this very major difference between cats and most other mammals on the board in the past). Because gluconeogenesis in people cannot keep up with the brain's needs under these circumstances, the liver makes up the shortfall with ketone body production. Except in extreme prolonged ketosis, this is not harmful to the normal human. After all, it is a normal survival mechanism. Naturally, it is not good to have severe metabolic acidosis (ketones cause the body to become relatively acid) for too prolonged a period (many weeks) because it can deplete body stores of buffers (mineral, generally). In starvation, however, it certainly beats the alternative (rapid brain death).
This brings us to the question of whether a low carb, high protein diet is bad for a diabetic cat, and does it cause ketosis? If you've been following this discussion so far, you are probably ready to guess that no, such diets do not cause ketosis in cats, diabetic or normal. In diabetic cats on high carbo diets (especially dry, extruded commercial cat foods where the dietary glucose is rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream from the gastrointestinal tract), the cat's brain nonetheless perceives "starvation" and ketones from the liver catabolism of fat begin circulating (and spilling into the urine, right along with the excess dietary glucose). This chronic circulating glucose has a suppressive effect on the cat's pancreas (mechanism unknown at this point), not to mention all of the other undesirable effects of chronic, poorly regulated diabetes. Most, if not all, commercial preparations of exogenous insulin work poorly in the cat (I don't have to tell all of you that!), so the hyperglycemia is essentially constant in most diabetic cats on high carbo diets.
When the cat eats a low carbo, high protein diet, however, little preformed glucose enters the blood stream. The liver produces what glucose the brain needs in a much more moderate, "time-released" fashion through gluconeogenic transformation of dietary protein, the pancreas-suppressive effects of hyperglycemia is significantly lessened (and in many cats, endogenous production of insulin resumes) and the body of the cat perceives a much more normal process of glucose production and uptake that satisfies the brain's needs.
We have not seen ketosis in cats on low carbo, high protein diets. This is the normal diet of the cat and its metabolic machinery is especially adapted to such a diet as the normal order of things, in times of feast as well as famine.

http://www.sugarpet.net/glossary.html
Ketones:
Ketones are a by-product of fat metabolism. Without insulin, the body burns muscle and tissue in an effort to feed itself. A by-product of burning fat and muscle are ketones (or ketone bodies). The body can cope with a certain amount of ketones, which are flushed out of the body by the kidneys. But left unchecked, ketones build up over time, overwhelming the kidney’s ability to get rid of them. Ketones that build up in the body for a long time lead to serious illness and coma. Large amounts are toxic to brain function

http://www.cat-world.com.au/feline-diabetes
Diabetes has many effects on the cat's body.
Because the glucose is unable to enter the cells, the body is starved of energy & the cat begins to lose weight, despite having a healthy appetite. If the diabetes goes untreated the body will begin to break down the body's own fat & protein to use as energy, leading to weight loss. Ketones in the urine & blood are a by-product of the body's digestion of it's own tissues to produce energy. The presence of ketones in blood or urine are a sign the disease has progressed. Ketoacidosis is a serious complication & requires immediate veterinary attention.


And ketoacidosis:
http://www.fabcats.org/owners/diabetes/info.html
Ketoacidosis
Ketoacidosis is an uncommon complication of poorly controlled diabetes. It can be rapidly fatal if not treated so requires immediate action where suspected. The clinical signs most frequently seen with ketoacidosis are:

• Loss of appetite
• Lethargy/weakness
• Vomiting/diarrhoea
• Dehydration/collapse

The breath may have a fruity odour (pear drops). Owners of diabetic cats should be provided with urine glucose and ketone sticks by their veterinary surgeon to allow periodic monitoring of the urine. This should be done as part of the normal routine (once or twice a week initially) or if there is any suspicion of ketoacidosis, for example if any of the above clinical signs are seen in a previously well diabetic cat. Ketoacidosis can also be confirmed by demonstrating the presence of ketones in the saliva, tears or blood using reagent strips.

If a positive ketone result is seen, immediate veterinary advice should be sought. This rule applies even if the cat seems quite well in itself. Ketotic cats require immediate intensive treatment with insulin given intravenously or intramuscularly for a rapid effect to regain control of the diabetes. In addition to this other treatments including intravenous fluid therapy, antibiotics and bicarbonate may be required. Treatment for ketoacidosis usually requires hospitalisation.


Carl
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

Wow that's a lot of information about ketones!

I wonder if she has developed some sort of resistance to prozinc, since the R is still working to bring her down. My vet (who has been practicing for almost 40 years) said that sometimes their immune system will attack the insulin and dis-arm it so to speak.

This morning she was "hi" so I gave her a unit of R and two units of prozinc. I just got home and at +5, she was 359, so I have a feeling the prozinc is completely ineffective at this point. I gave her a unit of R and will have to talk to my vet about switching insulins. I am so glad that I have the R though, so I can at least get it down for a time, even if it isn't consistent throughout the day.

Unfortunately, my other cat was being incredibly annoying and in the way this morning, and for the first time I accidentally forgot to put the insulin (both of them!) back in the fridge. It's been 5 hours and they are back in there now, so I'm really hoping they both didn't spoil during this time!
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

To tide you over until you can get to the vet, Humulin N lasts roughly 6-8 hours in cats.

Used by itself, you generally do best on dosing every 8 hours which is hard on the schedule.
 
Re: le sigh. up 160 to 600 in an hour after tiny dose increa

It seems like the R has been lasting about 8 hours a go with her, so I think I may just keep using it until my next vet appointment.

I think she may also still be a bit dehydrated, so I've given her 100 cc's and will try do give that each day for a while. Maybe once she's completely hydrated, the pro zinc will start to work again.
 
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