? Keep Dose the Same, or Decrease... or What?

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Blamethecats and Hannah

Blamethecats and Hannah

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I can't seem to find the right dose for Hannah. After six consecutive doses of 1.2 U, her numbers have been a mess all week. So this morning, I upped the dose to 1.4 U... and guess what? Even worse numbers. And I don't think it's a bounce because she never even got a number low enough to trigger that. Could someone PLEASE look at Hannah's spreadsheet and tell me if I should keep trying the 1.4 for a while longer, drop back to 1.2, or maybe even drop back to 1.o. Nothing makes any sense to me. The harder we try, the more messed up this gets. Sorry. I'm not looking for sympathy and I'm sooooooo tired of the patience advice. Believe me, I know all about that. I've tried every combo I can think of and this is a disaster for my baby, and me, too. :arghh:
 
Gosh, you know looking at your spreadsheet, I feel like I'm looking at Buds. Hopefully one of the more experienced ProZinc users will be along to help out because I never did figure out what worked with Bud.

I'm not saying you should switch insulin, but have you thought about switching to Lantus or Levemir? While Buds numbers still frustrate me, I don't have to think about dosage at least.

(((HUGS))) cause you know I don't only sympathize, but also empathize!
 
I think you may have a duration issue and the ProZinc is wearing off too soon.
Options:
1) Dose every 8 hours.
2) Switch to a depot insulin (Lantus or Levemir)
3) Do split dosing with the Prozinc with a stable time delay and equal doses per shot (ex 1/2 at 7 am 1/2 at 9 am, then repeat in evening)
 
I do agree she is confusing. Sometimes she seems to do beautifully with lower doses, but the next cycle she is higher. One thing I wonder is if she dips low at night and that sets up a bounce the next cycle during the day. I also wonder if a steady dose rather than a sliding scale would work better for her.

If she were mine, I think I'd try to get a +4/6/8 during the night and see where she goes. If that isn't it, I think I'd try like one unit or 1.2 and hold the dose a couple cycles, ignoring the weird stuff and see if she settles in.
 
Something has changed. Is she infected? Teeth? UTI? With numbers like that, I'd get her checked out at the vet before I started jamming the dose higher. If the vet says "all clear" then jam away.

You may just be putting a bandaid on the symptoms of a problem, rather than treating the problem itself. If that's the case, you may wind up with DKA or worse (use your imagination).

JMHO and good luck.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
If she were mine, I think I'd try to get a +4/6/8 during the night and see where she goes. If that isn't it, I think I'd try like one unit or 1.2 and hold the dose a couple cycles, ignoring the weird stuff and see if she settles in.
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Sue, I did as you suggested. Was up most of the night, grabbing numbers. (I'm now a sleep-deprived bean who's fixing Easter dinner. Good luck to our guests!) After lowering her PM dose back to 1.2 U, here's what we came up with:

PMPS = 458
+3 = 307
+4 = 238
+6 = 381
+8 = 385
AMPS = 407

I don't see any cause for a bounce, here. I think it's like BJ says,
I think you may have a duration issue and the ProZinc is wearing off too soon.
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So for now, anyway, I guess we will resume with leaving her dose at 1.2 U and take your suggestion to hold it there for a while longer and see what happens.

Happy Easter to you and yours!
 
I have to agree with Sandman on this: Get her checked for UTI/any other type of infection, just to be certain complications are ruled out.

Can sure relate to the sleep deprivation thing! Have a good Easter day --- will be hoping that things start going better for you & Hannah soon.
Hang in there!:bighug:
 
Sandman said:
Something has changed.
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Hmmmmm, I've been thinking about this and something came to mind. Maybe it's relevant, maybe it's not, but Hannah has been eating extremely well all week long. That's not something she normally does. Do you all suppose her improved appetite could be playing into this? The timing seems to coincide with her increased numbers.

Sandman said:
You may just be putting a bandaid on the symptoms of a problem, rather than treating the problem itself.
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Also a possibility that I'm not ruling out.

Sandman said:
(use your imagination)
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YIKES! I hadn't even had my morning coffee yet when I read that and, well... again... YIKES! If you were going for the shock effect, you achieved it!

Anyway, Happy Easter to all from Hannah and her bean, here in snowy upstate New York. Hannah's still wondering where on earth that Easter Bunny is!
Easter_2015.JPG
 
Actually, the increased appetite could be a symptom of the hyperglycemia and that's more likely.

Polyuria, Polydypsia, Polyphagia. That's the triad.
 
Hmmm. The lower dose seems to be doing better. Hope that continues.

I do think her variations in eating can change the numbers. Most of the time, cats who are off their food and eating less than usual tend to have lower bgs.
 
Stacym20 said:
Yay! I see you're seeing some better numbers! Keep it up, I mean down Hannah!
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Thanks for cheering us on, Stacy. But keep watching. Next we will likely experience what I call "The Big Bounce Theory." Anyway, happy for a few better numbers, at least for now... even though it was another mini PJ party last night to collect them.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Hmmm. The lower dose seems to be doing better. Hope that continues.

I do think her variations in eating can change the numbers. Most of the time, cats who are off their food and eating less than usual tend to have lower bgs.
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Sue, I think so, too. This morning, she wasn't all that interested in her food but did pick at it off and on for part of the morning. All of last week she ate very well and I was happy for that, as she still could stand to put on a few more ounces. However, it seems that the better her appetite, the higher her numbers. Since her preshot number was down a tad (surprise, surprise) last evening, I reduced the dose and was glad that I did... especially at 1:00 this morning, when she managed that 105. The same thing happened this AM, although now it looks like she's either rising because of too little insulin or returning to her famous bouncing routine. My DH calls her our little "enigma."
 
Blamethecats and Hannah said:
Sue, I think so, too. This morning, she wasn't all that interested in her food but did pick at it off and on for part of the morning. All of last week she ate very well and I was happy for that, as she still could stand to put on a few more ounces. However, it seems that the better her appetite, the higher her numbers. Since her preshot number was down a tad (surprise, surprise) last evening, I reduced the dose and was glad that I did... especially at 1:00 this morning, when she managed that 105. The same thing happened this AM, although now it looks like she's either rising because of too little insulin or returning to her famous bouncing routine. My DH calls her our little "enigma."
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Have you had your meter tested vs your vets lab equip? I'd suggest it as just yesterday I did that and found my meter off by 59 points!
 
Mogmom said:
Have you had your meter tested vs your vets lab equip? I'd suggest it as just yesterday I did that and found my meter off by 59 points!
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Yes, but it's been a while since we've done that. However, I currently have 3 meters... an AlphaTrak and 2 ReliOns. Since we now use only the ReliOn meters, I tested the two of them on the same blood sample just last week and found them to be very close in range.
 
Human meters will almost always read differently, and generally 30-40% lower, from pet meters and from lab tests. There is no conversion or adjustment that can be done consistently because over the counter meters are not intended to replace lab equipment. There is no calibration that can be done.

Any 2 tests at about the same time with the same meter may be as much as 20% different from each other. This is because the FDA allows over the counter meters to read 20% higher or lower from what a lab might get.
 
BJM said:
Human meters will almost always read differently from pet meters and from lab tests. There is no conversion or adjustment that can be done consistently because over the counter meters are not intended to replace lab equipment. There is no calibration that can be done.
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Yep, and that's exactly why I continue to put faith in our 2 ReliOn meters. Our vet did some sort of conversion thing between his AlphaTrak and our ReliOn several months ago, but I don't even worry about trying to compare the two. Use one meter and stick with it. Works for me!
 
So, if the food's a big part of it......what carb count? I know she is a picky eater, but sometimes reducing the carbs to 5% and under can make a big difference. You might try some different foods? (Stay away from fish too often)

I know it's discouraging but we've had cats who bounced for over 2 years (they finally went off the juice). I think the record was a Lantus cat. You might look at bookworm's spreadsheet - I think she posted in the remission thread. Her Cassie was on ProZinc for 3 years and was a bouncer. He finally went off the juice this year.
 
BJM said:
Any 2 tests at about the same time with the same meter may be as much as 20% different from each other. This is because the FDA allows over the counter meters to read 20% higher or lower from what a lab might get.
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Yep, again. Just last evening I tested Hannah twice because her number was so high (she bounced AGAIN). With the same meter, one test was 556, and the second test, within seconds of the first, was "Hi".
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
So, if the food's a big part of it......what carb count? I know she is a picky eater, but sometimes reducing the carbs to 5% and under can make a big difference. You might try some different foods? (Stay away from fish too often)
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Sue, her favorite is FF Tender Beef Feast pate and that's 5%, fortunately. Once in while when her appetite stalls big time, it seems to be FF Salmon and Shrimp Feast pate that jump starts her appetite, so we use that only when necessary. That is also 5%. I keep trying to convince her that she likes FF Turkey and Giblets Feast pate, and she continues to convince me that she HATES it. Wish she liked it better, as it's only 3%.

Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I know it's discouraging but we've had cats who bounced for over 2 years (they finally went off the juice). I think the record was a Lantus cat. You might look at bookworm's spreadsheet - I think she posted in the remission thread. Her Cassie was on ProZinc for 3 years and was a bouncer. He finally went off the juice this year.
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Your second paragraph gives me hope. Hannah has been bouncing for so long, I have lost count of the time. It seems like it will just never stop. Some days she clears the bounce quite quickly... other times, it seems to last forever. I will definitely check out Bookworm's post and Cassie's spreadsheet. We need all the encouragement we can get! Thanks!!
 
Stacym20 said:
Just checking in on you and Hannah. How's it going?
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Once again, thanks for checking in on us, Stacy. It's going about the same, here. Hannah had some nice green numbers on 4/8/15 while I was out for part of the day. Came home to find them... and a sick kitty. Am wondering if she dropped too low while I wasn't home to keep an eye on her. Today, she seems to be back to feeling like herself, so I'm thankful for that. I hardly ever go anywhere since her diagnosis, and the one day I do, she does that. Have dropped her dose back a bit, trying to avoid such severe drops and the resulting bounces. Same old, same old.:confused:

How are you and Bud doing? I've been watching Bud's SS, too. Looks like he and Hannie are still comparing notes. Here's the deal: when Bud starts to get better numbers, tell him to pass that info on to Hannah, too... so she can follow suit. At least it's been several days since he's had black numbers, so we'll take that as a positive sign.:cat:
 
Blamethecats and Hannah said:
I hardly ever go anywhere since her diagnosis
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Every time plans come up, my first thought is “Is it going to mess with Buds shot time?” Sad, isn’t it? One day, and soon, I’m going to have to bite the bullet and just miss an evening shot so we can have a family outing day where I’m not worried about getting home at a certain time. I think I owe that to my family.

Blamethecats and Hannah said:
trying to avoid such severe drops and the resulting bounces. Same old, same old.
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Yup! Same old, same old here, too. Bud was 432 last night at PMPS. At +3.25 he was 230. I decided to get up later to check him. At +6 he was 341 and looking like he felt miserable. I don’t know what happened. A bounce maybe? This morning he still looked miserable and was 499 at AMPS. He was drinking a lot of water before I left for work. I looked all around the house and didn’t find anything that he could’ve possibly gotten into. Bleh, I hate this. At least he wasn’t just one point higher so we can continue on our streak of no blacks. ;) One thing I know I did different last night was fed some of the lowest carb food I had. This morning I threw in some medium carb hoping to slow any fast drops maybe avoiding crazy bouncing. And even though he might need a dose increase, I’m going to hold at 1.0 units for a while longer.

So, here’s hoping for a fantabulous weekend for us both! I unfortunately won’t be around to catch many mid-cycle numbers. So while Bud and Hannah are at least in cahoots working on no blacks, hopefully we can start working on those reds, soon!
 
Depending on your schedule, it might slow the fast drops if you did a split dose approach. You'd divide the am and pm shots in 2, and give the 2nd half a specific amount of time later, such as 2 hours.
 
Scratch the no blacks streak, Bud threw me a 522 tonight and a retest at 503. Hope he hasn't talked to Hannah today!
 
Stacym20 said:
Scratch the no blacks streak, Bud threw me a 522 tonight and a retest at 503. Hope he hasn't talked to Hannah today!
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:banghead: Well, apparently he did talk to Hannah! My little enigma came in at 578 this morning. Fed her morning meal, sat down with my cup of coffee, and cried. And I'm not a crybaby type of person. It takes a lot to put me in that frame of mind. :banghead:
 
Stacym20 said:
Every time plans come up, my first thought is “Is it going to mess with Buds shot time?” Sad, isn’t it? One day, and soon, I’m going to have to bite the bullet and just miss an evening shot so we can have a family outing day where I’m not worried about getting home at a certain time. I think I owe that to my family.
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I have those same first thoughts, too. And families are definitely as important as our sugar kitties and deserve our time and attention, as well. However, today, DH is going on a field trip that we usually take together and I'm staying home with Hannah. Oh, well... sounds like a good chance to get some much-needed housework done. Ugh, as if that were some sort of consolation. :arghh:

EDITED TO ADD: I really admire those who work full time, manage a family, AND deal with a sugar kitty. Talk about a balancing act! You are to be commended!!
 
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Blamethecats and Hannah said:
:banghead: Well, apparently he did talk to Hannah! My little enigma came in at 578 this morning. Fed her morning meal, sat down with my cup of coffee, and cried. And I'm not a crybaby type of person. It takes a lot to put me in that frame of mind. :banghead:
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Well hopefully he talked to her again, I got a pink for AMPS! Sometimes it's the little things that help... But then at +2.5 he was only one point lower. Boo! Really didn't think I gave a fur shot so maybe just not an active cycle? Who knows. Last night I had myself a brief pity party, too. Then I went shopping... Lol

So there's an insulin support group forum, I think there should be a bouncy cat (and fast droppers) support group forum!
 
Blamethecats and Hannah said:
I have those same first thoughts, too. And families are definitely as important as our sugar kitties and deserve our time and attention, as well. However, today, DH is going on a field trip that we usually take together and I'm staying home with Hannah. Oh, well... sounds like a good chance to get some much-needed housework done. Ugh, as if that were some sort of consolation. :arghh:

EDITED TO ADD: I really admire those who work full time, manage a family, AND deal with a sugar kitty. Talk about a balancing act! You are to be commended!!
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Awwwwww! I wish you would've went. You need to take care of yourself, too!
((((((HUGS))))))
 
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