Just want to know

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does it matter if a cat drops 200 point in 3 hours to get to the greens? is that good in your eyes? is getting to the greens (or blues) the only thing that matters without regard to HOW they get there?
i need to know as i help out of the womb newbie's all the time and would like to know where i am sending them.
thank you,
lori
lord thomas
as inquiring minds
 
i mean i see an awful lot of rainbow looking ss's with a lot of joy at huge drops.
this is relevant to me on so many levels.
no answer is ok....i guess, but as a strong advocate for newbies....well, just like to know how you guys feel about that.
 
I would imagine that a large drop, which is subsequently sustained, is good.
However, there are a number of bouncy cats here who go from pink to green to pink (or worse), and that is not good.

MJ&Donovan
 
Hi Lori,

IMHO that seems like too fast a drop. It definately would have been for my cat. I think the overall health of the cat is what matters. I feel one, particulary a newbie, should not be so blue/green focused, particularly if they have very high BGs. Not only for the sake of the cat but for the sake of the beans' sanity as well. I would have slit my wrists had I been focused on blue/green - it was 6 months before BK saw his first green, and it was a long raod from there.

That's my $0.02 - I'm sure other will chime in with excellent experience to share.
 
I think that is pretty fast and fast drops usually lead to bounces. If I see more than a 50 point drop in an hour I monitor more closely and if it is early give a little extra carbs to slow things down. That will depend on the cat, sometime too much extra carbs don't just slow the drop, they launch the slingshot back up.

Really early drops like that are why I switched Tess to Levemir. Early drops led to a vicious cycle of drop and bounce.
 
thank you ann, mj, and sandy,
i need some reassurance as to what goes on here.
i see so many on going bounces....really really on going.
and i also see much happiness with drops too steep for my stomach.
i need to know that it is evened out with people who are more.....umm, conservative (for lack of a better word)
i know lantus is a good insulin, i have been concerned with the way i have seen it used.
i am just so glad to get any feedback at all actually.
thank you thank you thank you.
lori
 
Hi Lori

Mike here. Marje is at work and may chime in with her feelings later. She is much smarter about all this than me. So, my dos centavos...

I believe if you think you see "joy" at huge drops you are misinterpreting the cause. We may be happy that the cat is quickly breaking a bounce and getting back to more normal numbers, or breaking out of a high number surf for whatever reason. But I don't think anyone here is happy to see huge dives as that implies the cat has had a huge bounce or spent time at high numbers. Ultimitely, getting to green/blue numbers is important, because that indicates regulation and hopefully OTJ at some point. But how you get the cat to those numbers is the most important thing. I think everyone here wants reasonable preshot numbers and a typical lantus curve with the normal peaks and valleys throughout the cycle.

I've never seen anyone dosing/feeding/manipulating their cat just to achieve "normal" numbers every day. What I see are people tweeking dose and carbs and feeding schedule to get the curve flatter, then tweeking again to move that flat curve lower and lower till consistent green/blue numbers are the norm. Nobody I've seen likes "V" shaped curves. We all know bounces and dives happen from time to time, but I think the goal is to minimize them.

I think we all try to live from cycle to cycle, without dwelling on the past or looking too far into the future. But if anyone is making adjustments cycle to cycle or is trying to make the cat have a green number every day just to be happy or feel good about the green number, they are being short-sighted and ultimitely hurting their cat. And I don't see that in Lantus Land.
 
Insulin resistance aside, I'm an advocate of trying to achieve flatter cycles first, then raising the bar to getting lower numbers. A quick drop can cause a bounce or an uncomfortable kitty as can a number lower than they're used to.

(An exception may be if you're trying to combat a tricky resistance issue but that's only if you've been actively treating/monitoring and a newbie is not likely to be in that situation yet.)
 
Hi! I'm just dropping in to see if there was anything that I could add from my experience with the Lantus Dance. You seem to have gotten first rate advice to which I can add, nothing. I just know with my Gus, the faster the fall, the higher the bounce. Good luck.
 
Thank you Mike,
Would it be prudent, would it be due diligence, to advise a newbie (like 4-6 months in) who is STILL bouncing that another approach exists? That the levemir board is available for lantus kitties who are not breaking bounce here?
This is NOT personal to the peeps here as I know them to be a loving, caring family. This is a reasonable option....agree?
I would hope this option might be presented for consideration.
More than a few lantus kitties posting on lev have indeed broken bounce.
Again, please don't take this to heart as it is the same as seeking a second opinion and wise.
I have been worried about the time it takes to coax a scared newbie to take the chance and let them know the work involved will not be too overwhelming.
I have talked to and received pm's from sad newbie's that it is so much more than they were told....they feel lost and sometimes hopeless. Then I advise Lev.
But since I don't have access to all who may be feeling this way....would it be reasonable for that option to be openly offered here?
Again thank you for your responses.
Lori
 
not sure i really understand the situations you are talking about. are you suggesting that it might be appropriate to switch to lev because there is less bouncing than lantus? punkin is on lantus and doesn't bounce much anymore - i think that factor is as much part of being early in treating the FD than it is specific to a kind of insulin.

i'm not really sure how you could cause a large drop in numbers intentionally - seems to me that the dose does what it does, and the important thing is to be very patient to wait while a dose settles in and then decide if changes are needed. at least, i don't know what i could've done to push punkin's numbers to drop. i appear to now have mr flat cat, however, so maybe i just don't get it.

i do think that large drops must feel icky to a cat. i have observed that punkin seems to feel better in slightly higher numbers than in greens - i observed that a while ago before he was diagnosed with acromegaly. i don't know if that has anything to do with it or not. he would seem to feel better being higher and flatter than dropping too low and the subsequent bounce.
 
no no no, not switching insulins. just switching protocols. lev has a higher dose redux number. and a higher no shoot. and a nice waiting period with doses. there are far fewer extremes.
 
I agree with my much better half but do have this to add.

Gracie is one who can occasionally have a rainbow cycle. This causes us MUCH dismay because our goal is to get her to flatten out....even if it is yellow. We attained this at one point and then tried to slowly raise her dose to see if she would hold a flat blue...she didn't. We do everything we can to get her flat but we don't control her liver. The last thing we are is happy when she dives because we know it will most likely be followed by a bounce which we are trying to get rid of.

I think I can speak for everyone when I say that none of us here wants a bouncy cat. We work hard to figure out ways to slow the curve, minimize the bounce. Most of us are trying to flatten out curves by consistency in dose and time (shooting the 12s) and food manipulation. While we've made big progress with Gracie, she dove on me night before last and I was up during the night giving her carbs to slow her down so she WOULDN"T get into green because it would have been too much, too fast. The next day, we reacted by dropping her dose to hope to flatten her out because her shed was too full.

i need some reassurance as to what goes on here.
Click to expand...
I'm not really sure what you reassurance you are looking for? We don't have an agenda in LL to force our cats to dive just so they can get into green. We may joke about somebody being a diving queen or king but it isn't happiness or pride....it's reality and sometimes you gotta have levity to deal with this stuff or it will consume you. Our immediate goal with Gracie has been to get her in the healing range for as much time as we can; next goal is to get her flatter and slowly try to get her curve to come down. Yes, we are happy when she's surfing in green but we're not happy if she got there by diving.

I'm very glad that Tom is fairly flat....that is awesome. But there are those of us with harder to regulate cats and we're working our tuches off and staying up nights trying to get them flatter and to control the drops so they don't bounce. I really wish someone had a tried and true method for getting them flat but a bouncy cat will bounce until the liver decides it is safe not to. Please send the magic solution if you know it ;-) :-D :-D :-D

eta:
i have been concerned with the way i have seen it used.
Click to expand...
Not sure to what you are referring? Can you give us some specific examples? Maybe there is a reason behind what someone is doing......
 
Lori -

Mike here. I guess I'm confused too. Is this a discussion about how to handle bounces and dives on Lantus and whether dives are ok. Or is it a Lantus vs. Lev. thing. If the latter is the case, I don't think this is the proper venue for axe grinding.

Respectfully
 
And Mike, I beg to differ on 'regulation'
I don't see regulation as spending as much time as you can in the greens (or blues) I see it as not switching doses or changing carbs in order to achieve a degree of sameness.
Agree/Disagree?
Lori
 
i think it's possible that different cats might need different tactics.

i feel like we're talking "around" a topic though, and i'm not sure what it is. can you give a generic example that we could use to talk about? it's good you're being careful and wanting to avoid criticising anyone, but on the other hand everything that any of us do, is also something many of us do. so i think you could safely give us a generic example to work from.

seems to me that what i've seen is a pattern that SOME cats follow. they start high and as their dose gets closer they hit greens. at the beginning they hit greens and then bounce, then many of them seem to move to staying more often in the greens, and those bounces flatten out. then the dose gets adjusted downward til most of their numbers are in the greens, the dose continues to be adjusted downward, and eventually they end up on a trial. ideally.

of course that's not every cat. some cats seem to have a built in bounc-o-meter, and following the same protocol they can't get past the bounce factor. those beans have moved to using food to try to flatten out the bounce to achieve the same end result.
 
Mike had to go to the doctor but here is to what he is referring by "regulation" from the FDMB FAQs:

Not treated [blood glucose typically above 300 mg/dl (16.7 mmol/L), poor clinical signs]
Treated but not regulated [often above 300 (16.7) and rarely near 100 (5.6), poor clinical signs]
Regulated [generally below 300 (16.7) with glucose nadir near 100 (5.6), good clinical signs, no hypoglycemia]
Well regulated [generally below 200-250 (11.1-13.9) and often near 100 (5.6), no hypoglycemia]
Tightly regulated [generally below 150 (8.3) and usually in the 60-120 (3.3-6.7) range, no hypoglycemia, still receiving insulin]
Normalized [60-120 (3.3-6.7) except perhaps directly after meals -- usually not receiving insulin]
Click to expand...

The protocol for lantus and levemir is the same:
Roomp and Rand

I think I might see now what you are asking: tight regulation...must everyone who comes into LL strive to achieve it?

It is the protocol we use but we also understand that people have lives, jobs, etc etc. I think this group is caring enough that if people come in, need help, but have to give their baby a higher dose to keep them at a safer number, we aren't going to judge them. Everyone has to decide what they can do and I think we are all so thrilled that they chose to give insulin and not PTS the kitty that we are willing to help as much as we can.

If the question is does levemir enable the cat to avoid the dives? I think it depends on the cat. Tess has certainly stopped her dives...but she still bounces.
I think, overall, there isn't alot of difference between lev and lantus other than the nadir being later for lev and lev is supposed to sting less at higher doses. I don't know that lev holds an even less possibility of hypos....I've seen some lev cats go pretty low, too.

We've all been newbies; we've all been scared to death. We've all learned and we've come to know our kitties. I think those are the steps newbies have to take; they have to educate themselves on protocols, etc, ask questions, make their decisions....they hold the syringe. We are only here to listen, help, provide support.
 
Julie,
Your right....I'm getting all off topic.
I originally just wanted to understand if it was just a majority thought that big drops are good, getting into green at all costs was good, that much more work (i.e. carb counting, mega testing) was de rigueur.
I also only wanted to know if it would be offensive for me or any of you who sights a person with big bouncing problems to identify a levemir option. Not switching insulins, just taking advantage of the lev board on which some lantus users post. I as a levemir user started my journey her in lantus. They are pretty interchangeable....yet I was worried it might be offensive to the family atmosphere here to suggest it.
Lori
 
Hi Marjorie,
Not saying the L's are all that different. The way they are used in the 2 different rooms is different.
Some newbie's who are overwhelmed...can't they be offered the lev room until they are settled?
Unless of course they are ok. Sometimes I become aware someone is NOT ok, but you would'nt know it here.
If it was ok to just say out loud....without threat of flames...the one's I do not know personally would have an option.
Lori
 
Lori

Sorry to say but I haven't been in the lev isg but I think for newbies, there are more peeps around in LL almost 24/7 so if they need help..someone is usually around. I think newbies in LL get tons of attention and help because we all know what it's like to be a newbie and be scared.

Having said that, I'm not comfy telling you that you have to send them all to LL and not the lev isg.....that would be presumptuous of me. Perhaps it's best to ask the group moderators.

Eta. I think the real place for them until they are settled in is health . IMHO.
 
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