Just got back from the Vet...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Got up around 5:15 to test and feed - he had a reading of 3.2 so we gave wet Boreal with a 1/2 tsp of corn syrup. He had a burst of energy and ran around for a while. I tested again at 6:00 and he was still at 3.2, should I give him more food or corn syrup? I know it's early so I might not get a response. I'm watching him and plan to test again at about 6:45, if it's still low then I'll give him a bit of food with syrup.
 
Phew, number has finally started to climb again, just got a reading of 4.9 so I won't feed him now. I'm going to try to get a bit of sleep and I'll test again in an hour or so.
 
I'm assuming that you're still using the pet meter with the Freestyle Lite strips. Great that you caught the dip; you're doing a wonderful job with the testing. That rise to 4.9 may be from the corn syrup and the carb hit could wear off fairly quickly so it's good that you're monitoring closely.

I am speculating here but I do wonder whether the bursts of activity you keep mentioning may be related to Barry's body releasing adrenalin and other counter-regulatory hormones to help keep his blood glucose levels up.

It would help people popping in to the thread if you could post an update of how many hours it has been since Barry last received a Lantus injection so that they'll have some idea how long the depot has had a chance to start draining.

Unfortunately I need to duck away now but I'm tagging @Elizabeth and Bertie (also in the UK) to see whether she might be able to keep an eye on you all or else find other experienced members who can do so.


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
I am speculating here but I do wonder whether the bursts of activity you keep mentioning may be related to Barry's body releasing adrenalin and other counter-regulatory hormones to help keep his blood glucose levels up.
Click to expand...

Is this bad? Also, in answer to other questions you had:
- We are still using the pet meter with Freestyle strips.
- As of this posting it has been 60 hours since his last shot of Lantus

I tested him not long ago, he was at 4.4 and that was 3.25 hours after he ate the wet food with a 1/2 tsp of corn syrup. I plan to test again in about 20 minutes which will be 4 hrs post food. That will be time for breakfast for the other cats so I will likely feed him then, I plan to do only the Boreal wet but a full sized meal.

Edit - forgot to mention/ask: I've given him a few Boreal kibbles each time I've tested as a reward, would that affect his numbers significantly?
 
Last edited:
Good morning everyone. Well isn't Barry being a pickle! It's almost 60 hours since his last shot of insulin and he's still got you on your toes!

While the bursts of energy could be counter regulatory hormones, that would be a normal biological reaction for cat not used to being in these normal numbers and not necessarily an indication of impending danger although it could be. At this point, I am not sure that 3.2 was anything to worry about given that our furkids have a habit of going lower at night but then Barry's reserves of glucagon may not have fully replenished yet after his lengthy symptomatic low numbers the other day. For a cat not on insulin, that number is normal. The FS strips could also be giving us a slightly lower number than a batch tested AT strip in the AT meter on the correct code so right now I'm wondering what his reading would have been on the human meter as the low alert number there would be 2.8.

All of this is just pure speculation, but the depot of insulin should be pretty much drained by now. I would suggest that for the rest of the day, if his reading goes down to 3.6 or below, that you give him food only....no syrup or kibble. If a half hour after food, he has dropped further, then I would try giving him a tiny bit of kibble rather than syrup. At some point, we have to stop the syrup boosters to really see if Barry is going to hold "normal" numbers on his own and this is the only way to know when the depot of insulin is completely out of the picture and his own defences are replenished to regulate his BG normally.
 
I was hesitant to add syrup this morning but it was 5:00 a.m. and I may not have been in the best decision making state of mind. :confused:
I've tested again, at 4 hrs post food, and he's dropped to 3.0 :( I've given him a full sized meal of wet food only and plan to test him at 30 minutes. If he's dropped I will give him some kibble, would his diabetic kibble be the best option? Because we also have Boreal and a fibre response kibble.
He had 2 Boreal kibbles as a treat for testing but that's it. When the pet store is open tomorrow I can go get some new treats for him, would the little freeze-dried liver or chicken or fish treats be a good option? Or am I ok giving him a couple kibbles?
 
tempstace said:
I've given him a few Boreal kibbles each time I've tested as a reward, would that affect his numbers significantly?
Click to expand...
A couple of pieces of kibble shouldn't have a major effect but if you can get some freeze dried treats to see if he likes them, they would definitely be preferable. I buy the PureSnacks at Walmart in the dog food aisle and just break up the bigger pieces. The cat PureBites are super expensive in comparison and both PureBites and PureSnacks are made by the same company so the added expense of PureBites is just a money grab! I would stick with liver or chicken treats rather than fish. Fish on a regular basis is not recommended because of mercury concerns. Fine a few times a week but not a steady diet. I'd probably stick with the diabetic kibble as treats for now.

I completely understand why you gave the syrup this AM and I wasn't being critical. I'm really sorry if it sounded that way.:( You did exactly what I told you to do. I just want you to get over this hump so you know whether he is normalizing his BG himself and you can't do that if his BGs are being manipulated with high carb/sugar boosts. Cats have a natural defence system against hypoglycemia but after what he went through with the symptomatic hypos, his supply of excess glucagon could be lower than normal and make it difficult for his system to regulate itself which might explain why he is not spiking more after those sugar boosts. We need to make sure those natural defences have been replenished sufficiently to declare he is safe without excess intervention on your part.

When you do your next test, can you grab the blood on your finger nail and test with both meters? I'm wondering if what you are seeing is still in a normal range based on human meter readings. Also, what code is the AT meter set on?
 
I didn't see your reply before I tested him so I didn't do a comparison test, bummer. On the AT he was down to 2.6 so I gave him about a tbsp of the diabetic kibble. It's coded to 08 for cat, is that still the right way to do it with the Frestyle strips?
I'm going to test again in 30 so I'll try doing the comparison test with both meters then. I've had to do the blood on my thumbnail most times because once I poke his ear he's pretty quick to decide he doesn't want any more cuddles.
 
Last edited:
I should also say Linda that I didn't think you were being critical so no offence taken! I mentioned it more out of guilt, I knew we were supposed to avoid the syrup to get a clearer idea of what's happening with him but I wasn't sure what else to do. I'm not so great on sleep deprivation and today is actually worse than yesterday but it's worth it to get this little guy feeling better.
 
I know you guys are going through the wringer and believe me I so understand the sleep deprivation too so no worries!

The code on the meter is fine. I was just concerned that you might have changed it to the code on the FS strips which is for old human meters only. Just making sure we are covering all bases to explain Barry's readings.

The big problem with Barry right now is that if he had never been diagnosed diabetic, those numbers would not be the least bit concerning but we have no way of knowing exactly when he has totally depleted the insulin depot or when his natural defences will be replenished back to a full store of glucagon. Let me know what his next test is but don't give him anything else until I look at the number. That Boreal is very low carb and that may be why you are seeing such low numbers and the kibble takes a bit longer than canned to get into the system so hopefully he will be holding at the next test or starting to come up a bit. Do you have any of the canned diabetic food? If so I think it may be a little higher in carbs and would be a good next step to bring his numbers up a bit.
 
If you don't have anything with a higher carb content than the Boreal, I'm wondering if you have a Shoppers Drug mart open today nearby. If so, you might be able to find some canned food (Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies) with a higher carb % to use for boosting Barry until we are sure he is regulating himself appropriately.
 
I've been following your family as you have learned so quickly to test and monitor your handsome little guy this weekend. This morning I thought that you could use a moment of laughter....

Last summer when my cutie was racing down the dosing scale I practically dipped him in maple syrup or honey... and I did this several times. In fact during that week, Radar thought that after testing there was an automatic giving of honey by the human servant and he'd leave our testing site and go to the honey bear we keep on the counter ... looking at us with expectant eyes. We have since had to put the honey bear in the cupboard for obvious reasons.

I hope your little one continues feeling well and that you get some well deserved rest. :)
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
If you don't have anything with a higher carb content than the Boreal, I'm wondering if you have a Shoppers Drug mart open today nearby. If so, you might be able to find some canned food (Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies) with a higher carb % to use for boosting Barry until we are sure he is regulating himself appropriately.
Click to expand...

The Friskies Chef's Dinner in Canada is about 14% carbs. It is a pate but still higher in carbs. Actually I was looking at the whole line of Friskies pates and in Canada at least it looks like they have changed the formula. All the ones I have have rice in them and when I calculate the carbs they come between 12-16%.
 
I did a comparison test: AT read 2.9, Freestyle Lite (FS) read 1.8 and that was around 30 minutes post kibble, the number is creeping up thankfully.

I checked the cupboard and the only canned food we have is another large Boreal, 2 cans of Urinary s/o and a can of Friskies "chefs dinner pate" which says its crude fibre content is max 1.0%, we have several options for dry food as we have multiple cats and a couple have special dietary needs.

Since his number is creeping up I'm going to try to shut my eyes for a bit, I'll test him again at +1.5 after the kibble.
 
@Tuxedo Mom Thank you for that heads up Mary Ann. I had no idea our Friskies was so different! I guess FF Classics is the only thing appropriate they might be able to get at Shopper's or a Hasty Mart etc. open today. Right now even that 14% would be better than 29% kibble though!
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
@Tuxedo Mom Thank you for that heads up Mary Ann. I had no idea our Friskies was so different! I guess FF Classics is the only thing appropriate they might be able to get at Shopper's or a Hasty Mart etc. open today. Right now even that 14% would be better than 29% kibble though!
Click to expand...


About 8 months ago the Friskies pates were fine, when I checked the carb content out. At that time only the Chef's Dinner pate was higher than 10%

I am actually keeping the pates as a medium carb starter if needed. I wanted to have a few low carb for when my Maxie girl gets fussy about eating...I NEVER have that problem with Tuxie. :)
 
Ok so he is holding at this point in time. Number looks a bit low on the human meter so if possible I would test again in 20 minutes rather than an hour and give him another tbsp. of Boreal now to see if that doesn't boost him up just a tad more. I understand how tired you are but if he goes lower, then we need to catch it before he gets to a critical level.
 
I'm not sure what would be open today but I think even the local convenience store might carry a small selection of cat food. I don't understand (yet) how to calculate carbs in cat food but if there's a couple common brands that you recommend I can see if they have it. It sounds like that can of Friskies I found at the back of the cat food cupboard is a good option, so that's some good news!

@Jan Radar, thank you for sharing that cute story, people say cats can't be trained but that's obviously not the case :D Barry is already getting excited when he hears the zipper on the AlphaTrak pouch because he knows he'll get cuddles and a treat or two!
 
I obviously haven't shut my eyes so I'll test him again and give him a bit of Boreal kibble. The last kibble I gave him was the diabetic food. I'll post when I have his reading.
 
sk1-png.20771



The high carb choices specifically say "Gravy Lovers" on the label like this flavor
gravy-lovers-png.20772



Chris & China just posted this on another thread. It is a good indicator of the types of carbs in Fancy Feast
 
I completely misunderstood the above post about giving him Boreal since we have it both in wet and dry and I just gave him a tbsp of the dry Boreal. Ugh, sorry!
I could only get enough blood for a reading on the AT and it came back as 3.0, still low but at least it's creeping in the right direction. I think he needs a break from the testing, he's getting less inclined to sit still. Is it safe for me to wait an hour until I test him again? We're finally getting good at it and I don't want to ruin it.
Also, now that I understand, I will give him some of the Friskies the next time I feed him. I'll go out this afternoon to see what's open and what cat food I can get. If I find somewhere that carries more than one of those Fancy Feast options should I get the medium carb?
 
The slightly higher number is good and would seem to indicate that he's not heading south. I also understand the antsy pants stuff when too much testing is being done so yes, test again in one hour. If he shows any change in behaviour between now and then, give him a tsp of Friskies and get another reading to be sure he's ok. I'm running out to the Hasty mart myself so will check back in periodically between now and an hour from now to make sure things are OK.
 
Big enough droplet for another comparison sample - AT read 3.2, FS read 2.2
I've made a bed of sorts on the kitchen floor so I can keep an eye on him and he came and curled up with me for about 45 minutes and we had a light snooze together. It's as if he could tell I was exhausted and a bit frustrated and he wanted to remind me why I'm doing all this.
It's now been 3 hours since he's had a full meal with a tbsp each of 2 different kibbles at each hour mark. He seems content enough right now, should I hold off on all food to see what his numbers do?
 
Yes, I would hold off on the food for a bit and unless he shows any signs of excessive anxiety ridden hunger or other odd behaviour, hold off and test again in about 2 hours. It looks like he's just a low number guy and perhaps a food with a little higher carb would bring him up just that tiny bit to stop all the worry and get his numbers above those alert numbers. Some cats don't need a 1% carb diet and do fine on anything under 5%. And stick with canned from now, no syrup if there is a drop of any significance. I'll check back in a couple of hours to see what he's up to. Gotta go tackle some weeds! YUCK!
 
tempstace said:
- As of this posting it has been 60 hours since his last shot of Lantus
Click to expand...
That was said approximately 4 hours ago. So, we're now at about 64 hours since the last insulin dose was given.
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
It looks like he's just a low number guy
Click to expand...
Yes, Barry may very well be "a low number guy". Members who have been around for a long time have seen enough cats coming off insulin to realize that 30 and 40s (human meter) are just fine unless kitty has a very, very rare disease that will cause extremely low blood sugar. Even the presence of what may possibly remain from the depot of an insulin such as Lantus would not drop kitty into such low numbers after a shot given 64 hours ago (over 5 cycles ago).

Just throwing this out there for everyone's consideration...
 
Latest read was 2.8, that's 5 hours after a full meal and his last tbsp of dry was 3 hours ago. He's been fairly lazy this afternoon, but so have all the cats, typical cat behaviour. No crazy kitten mode bursts in the last few hours but he's been alert and bright eyed when he's not napping.
I gave him half of the can of Friskies and I'll test in 30 minutes, then again about an hour or so after that if that sounds reasonable. While I'm still pretty uneducated on the subject, in my opinion he seems to be normalizing and he likely is a "low numbers cat" as others have said.
Moving forward, how and where would I find information or help to plan his feeding schedule?
 
I would like to say that the help and support on this site has been absolutely invaluable. The kindness, patience and incredible wealth of knowledge that you have all brought to this discussion has made an incredibly stressful situation so much easier. I obviously have A LOT of homework to do but I'm finally starting to feel like I'm up to this task.
We're lucky to have Barry and Barry is lucky that we found you! Thank you all so so much!
 
The 30 minute test result was 3.2, he looks like he's ready for a nap so I'll test in an hour or so if he seems awake. I think he's pretty worn out now that he's levelling out, he hasn't been sleeping much. It's nice to see him looking cozy and content!
 
I don't think you need to "abuse" his ears again in an hour. He's holding quite nicely and has shown no signs of any problems. Getting him mostly on a canned low carb diet is likely why his numbers are so good and low now. Jill has years of experience and agrees he's probably a low number guy. Just keep an eye on him and get another test only if he shows any weird signs that alarm you.

I think now we need to think about the counting the days to Barry's remission proclamation! This will be day 2 unless he pulls some crazy numbers out of a hat later. How about you test him again before his usual dinner/shot time tonight and leave him to relax till then. If he is hungry, feed him but withhold food for 2 hours prior to tonight's test. Can we start working on that spreadsheet and signatures soon so we can track his progress for the next 12 days when he will be officially OTJ? (notice my positivity! :D;))

As for feeding schedules, figure out what is going to work for you under normal conditions. It's good to feed several small meals per day but the timing can be whatever you like if there is no insulin in play.

I'm trying to find the OTJ trial instructions and not having much luck. I'll keep looking but for now, you need to test Barry every morning and every evening to see if his numbers are staying in normal ranges. After 14 days, of good numbers, he becomes officially OTJ and we hold a party! :D

Just out of curiosity, when was Barry diagnosed and what dose of insulin did he start on?
 
Ok, I didn't like that spreadsheet, and as we aren't giving insulin it didn't apply lol. So I created our own logbook. I will keep it updated regularily. Let me know if you guys can see it or not.
 
Yes Matt, I can see the document and it gives us a good history of the last couple of days so if you can get the dates to appear, it will serve the purpose although we are all used to viewing the spreadsheet which automatically colour codes the readings so it's quick to provide lots of good info. Really all you'd need to do is enter the morning and night readings into the AMPS and PMPS columns at this point in time and if you did take any readings in the middle of each cycle for any reason, they would just get logged under the + column showing the number of hours since the AMPS or PMPS test. It looks complicated but is really easy and automated once you start using it. If you do end up needing to reintroduce insulin into the mix (which I am seriously doubting you will at this point!) then the spreadsheet is definitely the only way folks here will be able to give you good feedback and advice.:)

In the meantime, can you add the link to your document to your wife's sign in too so it is available if either of you have questions or concerns. ;)
 
He was dozing with one of the other cats and his ears were warm so I couldn't resist a quick test, came back as 3.1 so that's pretty steady!

I'll probably feed him in about an hour, assuming we feed him 4 times/day, how do I know how much to give him per meal? Also, Matt went out and got a bunch of the little Fancy Feast cans (the 85g ones) in a mix of of the Pâté and Grilled types. And should I play it safe and feed him once during the night tonight?

I promise to work on my signature and adding the pdf to my profile as well. I'm also going to have a look at the spreadsheet tomorrow to see if it will make more sense after some sleep.
 
Ok now you are an official member of the vampire club! :woot: But be careful....testing is not supposed to become your new hobby! :woot:

That said, I understand why you tested after what you've been through the last couple of days. That is terrific number and he is holding steady. He obviously likes those low numbers and that is just wonderful. :D:D:D

You can calculate how many calories Barry needs per day and divide that amount between the number of times a day you will be feeding him. The calculation for needed calories is 13.6 X ideal weight in lbs. +70. The info for calories per can of food should be available on the websites of any varieties you choose to use. There are so many flavours of FF that each has a different calorie count. The low carb food is the pates. The grilled are a medium carb food and if on insulin, would be used to bring numbers up when needed. With Barry at such low numbers right now, it should be fine.

I really think Barry is out of the woods now so it's up to you whether you feed him during the night or not. If you are both working, with other cats to deal with who might pilfer food left out, maybe feeding him a small meal before bed to tide him over till morning would work.
 
Maybe this explanation will help you understand our spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning, pre-shot, test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening, pre-shot, test)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

The nadir is the lowest glucose between shots. There is a general period when it will happen which is specific to the insulin being used and testing then helps make sure your cat doesn't go too low.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.

Can we get you started using our grid to record your glucose tests? It will help us give you better feedback. Instructions are here.
 
I woke up at 5:15 and of course couldn't get back to sleep because I was wondering how Barry fared through the night. He was alert and meowing for attention and food, his BG test came up as 2.7 which I'm good with, especially because that was after almost 7 hours without food! I fed him and now I'm going to do my best not to test him until this evening. :nailbiting:
I will look at the spreadsheet today, in theory it makes sense to me but since we're not giving him insulin I'm not sure what test to enter as AMPS or PMPS. I guess I could do his pre-food tests in those columns...
Looks like Matt might get a pre-alarm wake up because now Barry is running around a bit and meowing a lot, I think he's trying to get the other cats to play.
 
Tests pre-food work just fine. Add any comments on the right about your observations..
 
I had a pretty full day yesterday and my back was sore, sitting at the computer tends to make it much worse, so I didn't get to the spreadsheet. I'm feeling pretty good today though so I'm going to try to tackle it!

Barry woke us up this morning meowing at 5:15, he seemed quite hungry and I knew he wouldn't sit still for a test so I fed him a can of the Fancy Feast Pâté. I tested him as soon as he finished eating and his BG was only 2.1, which seems low, even for him. It had been 7.5 hours since he'd had a can of the medium carb FF, the Grilled kind. Is it possible that he needs something higher carb to get him through the night? Or maybe add some kibble to get his sugar to stay up longer? I still don't entirely understand how this works.

Also, he was meowing again at 9:45, almost yowling, and his BG came back as 2.0 (yes, I'm becoming part vampire and can't help but test him if he's acting at all strange) so I fed him the medium carb again in hopes of getting his number to go up a bit more.

I'll be picking up our new AlphaTrak meter tomorrow and I'm planning to do some comparison tests with the Freestyle strips and AlphaTrak strips to see if the numbers we've been getting are significantly off.
 
tempstace said:
I'll be picking up our new AlphaTrak meter tomorrow and I'm planning to do some comparison tests with the Freestyle strips and AlphaTrak strips to see if the numbers we've been getting are significantly off.
Click to expand...
Good plan to test with some Alphatrak strips.

Are those readings on the Alphatrak with Freestyle strips? Can't offer any insight as I've no experience of seeing numbers in that range in a cat not on insulin. Hopefully others will chime in soon.


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
Good plan to test with some Alphatrak strips.

Are those readings on the Alphatrak with Freestyle strips? Can't offer any insight as I've no experience of seeing numbers in that range in a cat not on insulin. Hopefully others will chime in soon.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...


The best way to test the accuracy of AT2 meter with FS Lite strips either for diabetic or non-diabetic is to use the AT2 control test solution that came with the kit and do a reading. If the results fall within the accepted range marked on the AT2 strip container (on mine for cats it the test solution should give a reading between 5.5-10.3) then the strips are reading correctly. The meter is what does the adjustments rather than the strips.
 
I've done a spreadsheet, it's a bit wonky if you look at it in the "US mg/dl" version because I entered it as the "World mmol/L" version and I think a couple changes I made screwed it up, oops! It was a bit confusing since we aren't currently giving him insulin and I didn't know if it was ok to have the same date take up multiple rows. I hope it's not a complete mess lol
Does anyone have some advice as to whether I should get him some higher carb wet food or try adding some kibble to his diet? I'm concerned that his numbers have been getting steadily lower.
@Critter Mom, yes, we've been using the AlphaTrak meter with Freestyle strips for the majority of his tests, we ran out of the AT strips.
 
The readings with the Freestyle strips in the AT meter have a 25% chance (based on the number of known cat codes on the AT meter) of being as accurate as the AT strips. The other 75% chance is that they are reading somewhat lower (generally about 5% or so according to other members cross checking) than the AT meter with AT strips. Some cats do normally run in the 30's as their normal so I don't think these readings are a problem especially after 7.5 hours with no food. It is however possible that Barry needs a bit more food (every cat is different in their caloric needs depending on activity level etc.) but I would not advice giving him any high carb kibble anymore. If he really is diabetic and reverted that suddenly to such low numbers, you don't want to risk sending his BG numbers up and having to resume insulin. High carb kibble could send him in that direction. A little higher carb wet food would be Ok but I really think he is fine.

The Spreadsheet is looking good! Good work Stacey!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top