Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after researchi

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TheBowHuntress

TheBowHuntress

Member Since 2012
Saturday i took Gobbles to vet due to weight loss, voracious appetite and thirst, and thinning hair...bloodwork done and found out on monday his glucose was 406...so i called my cousin (whose cat had diabetes and lived to be 22 years old) and she "schooled me a little" about FD...we discussed home blood testing, printable chart from this website, vetsulin vs. human insulin, and more...i took Gobbles to vet yesterday (i am wondering WHY i had to wait two days to get a vet appointment since he was at 406 on saturday)...i told him that i noticed. Since that Gobbles seem a little lethargic and his appetite for both food and water had diminished....he did a urinalysis and said Gobbles was at 500' then gave him a small? dose of insulin (i don't know how much or what he gave him but he used one of the small orange needles and it was about 1/5 filled)...he rolled his eyes at my chart, said he does not prescribe or sell vetsulin (only prescribes human insulin), does not advise home blood testing because it makes a cats adrenaline peak and therefore is not a true reading and would not prescribe ANY insulin at this point in time...basically forced me to buy 10 cans and a 6 pound bag of "DM"....said this may work and he would need very little, if any, insulin IF i feed Gobbles exclusively DM....he told me to listen to him as he's been doing this for years...well Gobbles ate very little of the wet and dry DM and still seemed mopey...so i called my cousin today and she advised mixing about half a can of fancy feast (i used the original turkey) with water and slightly warm it...i did so and Gobbles ate most of it...and i gave him one piece of regular dry food....this "picked him up"....still a little not himself...then enter our traditional thanksgiving turkey and Gobbles ate a bit of that...i didn't give him too much (even he wanted more) because in the past he would GORGE himself on turkey if i let him...about an hour later he ate a few nibs of the fancy feast/water mix...seems better now....i have another vet appointment this coming wednesday but i am seriously considering going to another vet (my cousin's vet)...my cousin is coming over tomorrow, thank God,
to educate me more and giving me her test equipment, strips and needles that she kept after her 22 year old cat passed to rainbow bridge.....any comments and/or insight would surely be greatly appreciated :)
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

So glad you have your cousin, because your vet is acting like an a**, excuse my language. With an attitude like that, I strongly encourage you to find a new vet (see my signature link for questions to ask).

Our members test their cats before each insulin shot, just like human diabetics test themselves and parents test their kids ... for safety. Its your cat, not the vet's, too, so its your decision, not his. Glucose levels at the vet are frequently much higher than at home due to vet stress; home testing gives you a much better idea of how your cat is doing.

With those high levels, I am concerned your cat may develop ketoacidosis, a potentially fatal condition where fat is broken down for energy, creating ketones which are toxic to the system. Please get to a pharmacy and pick up some urine ketone testing strips asap. If you get a positive urine test, treat it as a medical emergency; he will need to be hospitalized which is very expensive (and though I hope not, maybe your vet is counting on that) Notes on this are in my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools.

Cat Info has lots of good information on feline nutrition I encourage you to read. Getting him on low carb canned or raw food is a good step to take quickly, especially if not on insulin yet.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

More on diet: ditch the dry. Return it and say your cat won't eat it.

Feed low carb over the counter canned, for example, the Fancy Feast Classic Pates, Friskies pates (no gravy), Wellness Turkey and Giblets or Chicken, and so on. Members have compiled several lists of these foods and there is one over on Cat Info.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Though I'm no expert, I agree with what others posted.... newly diabetic cats should IMHO be monitored carefully. Cats on insulin actually have a higher chance than dogs of going into remission... if it happens, it's generally in the beginning, which is one of many reasons to monitor the cat (because the blood sugar can get too low which is also dangerous). Some cats do manage to be controlled with diet only, but in my own experience and with what I've heard from vets, that is ONLY after going on insulin, being monitored, and having readings indicating the insulin is now unnecessary (and even then, the cat should continue to be monitored to make sure the diabetes didn't come back). Wet food is best. For a cat controlling diabetes with diet only, dry food is a no no. My vet says a cat who will be on insulin forever can have some occasional dry food (such as if my cat is going to be home alone for a few hours)... I use it rarely, maybe once a year. There are lots of wet food brands that are grain/gluten free. Personally I use wellness. I used to give my cat occasional human food (she begged for chicken/turkey) but I'm now cautious about that b/c they could be cured in sugar.

Consider going to another vet for a 2nd opinion. It couldn't hurt. Untreated diabetes can quickly lead to DKA, a dangerous condition which very quickly can lead to death (which my cat just survived). DKA can hit extremely quickly, and there are newly diagnosed cats who develop it (the fact is, you don't know exactly how long your cat has had diabetes because the symptoms aren't always the only indicator). My vet mentioned that skinny cats tend to be more likely to develop DKA, and heavier cats tend to be more likely to develop diabetes.

If you decide to buy DKA urine testing strips (these are pretty cheap, can be bought at pharmacy), my advice is to leave them near th litter box so if you see your cat going you can quickly get there (they need to be put directly into cat's urine stream and must be read within 15-30 seconds). If your cat is producing ketones you must, as others say, go immediately to the ER to save your cat's life (which can often cost thousands). Anyway I hope you are able to get a 2nd opinion soon and get insulin soon.... leaving your cat without insulin can be quite dangerous.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Thank you BJM and SMOKEYMAY!!! If i get a pee sample tonight, can i use that tomorrow when i get the keytone urine test? Or does it have to be fresh urine? :smile:
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Depends on how you test... if you are using non traditional litter designed for this purpose (pellets or gravel or something, forgot what it's called), then I think whenever you see your cat has gone you can test. If you're using regular litter then you must catch the cat while they are peeing. I have only tried while the cat is peeing, so you may want to ask some others about it, but the vets at the hospital told me if I test using the special litter I can test it whenever I notice she went.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Thanks Smokeymay...I don't know jack-shite about any of this yet, but shouldn't I be concerned that my vet would not prescribe Gobbles insulin? He was at 406 this past saturday then "500" yesterday....? i am SO THANKFUL that my experienced Cuz is coming over tomorrow and will be making an appointment with another vet ASAP for a second opinion...btw, his appetite has returned...he is eating FF mixed with water and slightly warmed...
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

I agree with the others. That vet is an idiot. Stay away except to get a refund ... be sure to tell him your cat won't eat it.
You defintely want to find one that doesn't discourage you from testing/monitoring your cat.

The diet change is important. Click on this link for a shortcut list I created to help anyone who wanted something to print and carry to the
store.
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=81687

As soon as you get started with insulin, be sure and come back and post here and get lots of support and information to stay on track.
Shadow and I wouldn't be in remission without all our wonderful friends here who helped us get there. Just check out our spreadsheet.
We were on insulin for 100 days.

Some people try using gravel like for an aquarium to get a urine sample, I have always had luck with putting a plastic bag over the litter box
and my cat would go pee on it. I've even heard someone here use a ladle and catch it while the cat is doing it. ( wow)
You really want to monitor for ketones while your cat is so high.
Hope to see you back here soon!
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

This morning, he refused the FF, however, he knew there was leftover turkey in the fridge so i did give him some of that, as i believe he needs to get something in his belly, correct? (he hadn't eaten since about 9 pm last night--about 9 hours ago)...i will be calling a different vet today....and btw, there stickers on the food that say it cannot be returned...oh well, maybe he will eventually eat it....or i could feed it to my other fur children....
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

My neighborhood raccoons are very healthy due to all the food Pepe won't eat. Even when I try adding a little to other food, he turns his nose up. I think I have 2 open cans in the frig. I tell him starving kitties in China would love that food but he is unimpressed. :mrgreen:

Sharon
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

LOL re:raccoons....I'll do the same...i got an appointment with a highly recommended vet tomorrow confused_cat and my cuz is en route to test Gobbles blood! i placed a call to my previous vet and they are faxing his records to my new vet :mrgreen:
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Stickers on the bag that say it can't be returned? That's a first, and just sounds wrong. Feeding dry food to any diabetic cat, even the supposedly "good" prescription crap, is like giving sugar cubes to a human diabetic. Your vet is wrong. On diet, on home testing, and on not even considering starting insulin. Find out what kind of insulin he gave for that one shot he did. But one shot of insulin, any insulin, isn't going to fix this. The most it will do is drop the blood glucose for a few hours.

I would definitely find a new vet, and make sure the old one knows why. And ask him what percentage of cats he has "treated" have gone into remission. I'm betting that number is at, or close to, zero.

Carl
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Ya know, Just make sure you tell your new Vet you have every intention of being proactive in the treatment of YOUR kitty. Let him know you're NOT afraid of giving shots and home testing. I think it makes a world of difference because when the Vet knows this from the getgo, he knows you are willing to do the work. Let the Vet know you will provide testing numbers from a spreadsheet...I think your new Vet will be impressed.
Good luck and MANY blessings and WELCOME to the FDMB.
jeanne
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

If he's not eating much or at all, please make that vet appointment sooner rather than later. He could be heading into diabetic ketoacidosis due to no insulin and breaking down fat for calories, creating ketones.

I may be overly cautious here, but better safe than sorry. He needs to be on insulin asap.

In an absolute pinch, it is possible to get an insulin (Humulin N or Novulin N) from the pharmacy without a prescription, but it only works 6-8 hours in the cat which means you have to test and dose every 8 hours to get decent control. This means testing and injecting 3 times a day, which is really hard on the schedule. It is far better to use a long acting insulin such as Lantus, Levemir, ProZinc, or BCCP PZI. These allow you to test and dose every 12 hours, for the most part.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Carl & Bob said:
Stickers on the bag that say it can't be returned? That's a first, and just sounds wrong. Feeding dry food to any diabetic cat, even the supposedly "good" prescription crap, is like giving sugar cubes to a human diabetic. Your vet is wrong. On diet, on home testing, and on not even considering starting insulin. Find out what kind of insulin he gave for that one shot he did. But one shot of insulin, any insulin, isn't going to fix this. The most it will do is drop the blood glucose for a few hours.

I would definitely find a new vet, and make sure the old one knows why. And ask him what percentage of cats he has "treated" have gone into remission. I'm betting that number is at, or close to, zero.

Carl
Click to expand...
The vet's office has put a "non-returnable" notice of their own makingon both the food
and my receipt....i will find out which insulin and how much he gave Gobbles as his office is faxing all his records to the new vet....surely that information should be in his records...thank you so much for your reply ;-)
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

jt and trouble (GA) said:
Ya know, Just make sure you tell your new Vet you have every intention of being proactive in the treatment of YOUR kitty. Let him know you're NOT afraid of giving shots and home testing. I think it makes a world of difference because when the Vet knows this from the getgo, he knows you are willing to do the work. Let the Vet know you will provide testing numbers from a spreadsheet...I think your new Vet will be impressed.
Good luck and MANY blessings and WELCOME to the FDMB.
jeanne
Click to expand...
Thanks kindly--great advice...i will do so. :-D
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

BJM said:
If he's not eating much or at all, please make that vet appointment sooner rather than later. He could be heading into diabetic ketoacidosis due to no insulin and breaking down fat for calories, creating ketones.

I may be overly cautious here, but better safe than sorry. He needs to be on insulin asap.

In an absolute pinch, it is possible to get an insulin (Humulin N or Novulin N) from the pharmacy without a prescription, but it only works 6-8 hours in the cat which means you have to test and dose every 8 hours to get decent control. This means testing and injecting 3 times a day, which is really hard on the schedule. It is far better to use a long acting insulin such as Lantus, Levemir, ProZinc, or BCCP PZI. These allow you to test and dose every 12 hours, for the most part.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much...it's great that i already have people to support Gobbles and myself! my cuz just left here and tested him for me....he was at 267...then she showed me how to fill out the chart to keep track of his levels...and told me to test him again at 7 pm PLUS to bring a meter with me tomorrow morning when i go to my new (her vet of several years) vet and once in a room to test him again...thus saving $30 !!!
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Pepe's mom said:
My neighborhood raccoons are very healthy due to all the food Pepe won't eat. Even when I try adding a little to other food, he turns his nose up. I think I have 2 open cans in the frig. I tell him starving kitties in China would love that food but he is unimpressed. :mrgreen:

Sharon
Click to expand...
Forgot to thank you dear...i have so much on my mind and it was thoughtless of me...a big THANKS to you :smile:
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

rhiannon and shadow said:
I agree with the others. That vet is an idiot. Stay away except to get a refund ... be sure to tell him your cat won't eat it.
You defintely want to find one that doesn't discourage you from testing/monitoring your cat.

The diet change is important. Click on this link for a shortcut list I created to help anyone who wanted something to print and carry to the
store.
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=81687

As soon as you get started with insulin, be sure and come back and post here and get lots of support and information to stay on track.
Shadow and I wouldn't be in remission without all our wonderful friends here who helped us get there. Just check out our spreadsheet.
We were on insulin for 100 days.

Some people try using gravel like for an aquarium to get a urine sample, I have always had luck with putting a plastic bag over the litter box
and my cat would go pee on it. I've even heard someone here use a ladle and catch it while the cat is doing it. ( wow)
You really want to monitor for ketones while your cat is so high.
Hope to see you back here soon!
Click to expand...
thank you so much for much-needed info :mrgreen:
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Welcome to the board! First off, Gobbles is a fantastic name! Secondly, hang in there and keep asking questions. There's a lot to learn, and the collective knowledge on this board is amazing! We live this fight every day - in most cases, the vet does not. I hope Gobbles can find some safer numbers soon - your cuz is da bomb!
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Glad you have a vet appt tomorrow. I went through 3 vets at this hospital. When I asked the first vet about food she said he could eat him normal amount. Told me testing basically was too much trouble. Second told me to leave dry diabetic food down for him and to call her after the holidays. Third said testing was good and that Pepe may be able to be regulated on food. I'm printing off information for him (he didn't know how I could give less than 1 unit in a syringe) and tell him he needs to educate the other 2 I talked to.
Raccoons are getting a buffet tonight. :lol:


Sending out healing energy to you and your kitty!
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Where was the 267 with regards to AM/PM & eating?

That is looking better if he is eating some.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Tara & Buster said:
Welcome to the board! First off, Gobbles is a fantastic name! Secondly, hang in there and keep asking questions. There's a lot to learn, and the collective knowledge on this board is amazing! We live this fight every day - in most cases, the vet does not. I hope Gobbles can find some safer numbers soon - your cuz is da bomb!
Click to expand...
thanks....his name describes him! I will do everything and anything i can to take good care of my very best friendj confused_cat i am thankful that diabetes is treatable and so many people that i don't even know are willing to help me...
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Pepe's mom said:
Glad you have a vet appt tomorrow. I went through 3 vets at this hospital. When I asked the first vet about food she said he could eat him normal amount. Told me testing basically was too much trouble. Second told me to leave dry diabetic food down for him and to call her after the holidays. Third said testing was good and that Pepe may be able to be regulated on food. I'm printing off information for him (he didn't know how I could give less than 1 unit in a syringe) and tell him he needs to educate the other 2 I talked to.
Raccoons are getting a buffet tonight. :lol:


Sending out healing energy to you and your kitty!
Click to expand...
i'm feeling better since Gobbles has an appointment tomorrow!
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

BJM said:
Where was the 267 with regards to AM/PM & eating?

That is looking better if he is eating some.
Click to expand...
The 267 was taken at 12:45 two hours after eating....i took it again at 7:15 this evening and it was 277 two and one hours after eating...his appetite is good
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Much better that the 400s! Diet change is helping some.

Once insulin is on board and the pancreas can rest some, you should be able to get it controlled, and with luck, eventually off insulin if the pancreas recovers.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Gobbles seen his NEW vet this a.m. the vet was very thorough and prescribed him lantus..1 unit every 12 hours...told me to check his blood in a week and call him...however, i am checking it every and recording it in my log...how long does it take to start working and any pointers, advice, comments?
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Lantus will start having some effect immediately AND it has some carryover between doses.

If preshot test is 200 or greater, its OK to give insulin. Otherwise, post in the Lantus forum for feedback. That no shoot number may slightly decrease as you collect data to show it is safe to shoot at a lower value.

Try to get some tests around 6 hours after the shot, which is likely to be the low point or nadir. You want this number to go no lower than 50.

Dose adjustments are made using the nadir value, not the pre-shot value.

You're trying to find the safest optimal dose that can be given every 12 hours (exactly), without taking him too low.

Sometimes, a diabetic may go too low - hypo - due to vomiting, lack of appetite, too much insulin or other illness. Pick up some Karo syrup, oral syringes, and a few cans of high carb gravied foods to have in case of hypo. Read & print the sticky post on HYPOS so you'll be prepared if it ever happens. (My friend misread a syringe & gave 10 units, not 1; Spitzer survived after 2 days in ER on IV dextrose!)

Lots more reading for you to do in the Lantus forums!
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

If the vet refuses to take back the DM, then call Purina and tell them the situation (especially the vet's no refund label) and ask them to refund you directly. Tell them you will happily ship the product back to them if they provide the shipping label.

Purina guarantees the product and you should be allowed to return it. The fact that the vet put a no refund label on the package, just means that others have complained and returned it in the past and he just doesn't want to deal with accepting returns, giving back your money and returning opened product to Purina.

Good that you have a new vet.

And good that you are testing.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

BJM said:
To read & print: Hypo info
Click to expand...
Got it! Thanks so much...and I also printed out the list of PFC amounts of canned foods....my vet said to feed him wet foods less than 7 carbs...
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

BJM said:
Lantus will start having some effect immediately AND it has some carryover between doses.

If preshot test is 200 or greater, its OK to give insulin. Otherwise, post in the Lantus forum for feedback. That no shoot number may slightly decrease as you collect data to show it is safe to shoot at a lower value.

Try to get some tests around 6 hours after the shot, which is likely to be the low point or nadir. You want this number to go no lower than 50.

Dose adjustments are made using the nadir value, not the pre-shot value.

You're trying to find the safest optimal dose that can be given every 12 hours (exactly), without taking him too low.

Sometimes, a diabetic may go too low - hypo - due to vomiting, lack of appetite, too much insulin or other illness. Pick up some Karo syrup, oral syringes, and a few cans of high carb gravied foods to have in case of hypo. Read & print the sticky post on HYPOS so you'll be prepared if it ever happens. (My friend misread a syringe & gave 10 units, not 1; Spitzer survived after 2 days in ER on IV dextrose!)

Lots more reading for you to do in the Lantus forums!
Click to expand...
thank you, again....i am so worried about accidentally giving too much/too little....one unit is SO tiny....i mean like if I gave closer to two units...or giving less than one unit...
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Here is the new to the group sticky you should read.
There are pictures of syringes there that should help.
The important thing is to be consistent from dose to dose. So where you decide on the syringe is the 1 unit amount. Repeat it until
you earn a dose change.
new to the group Sticky

There is also the print out of an example of a typical lantus curve.
Every cat is different so you are now in process of learning your cats individual pattern.

This page has lots of helpful links to read.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

rhiannon and shadow said:
Here is the new to the group sticky you should read.
There are pictures of syringes there that should help.
The important thing is to be consistent from dose to dose. So where you decide on the syringe is the 1 unit amount. Repeat it until
you earn a dose change.
new to the group Sticky

There is also the print out of an example of a typical lantus curve.
Every cat is different so you are now in process of learning your cats individual pattern.

This page has lots of helpful links to read.
Click to expand...
Thanks...i read everything...i have a question: he gets his insulin at 11:30 am &11:30 pm...tomorrow i won't be home in time for his 11:30 am fix...is it allright to give the insulin a little later (longer than the 12 hours)? When i testd him last night at 11:25 pm, his BG was 236.,.
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Yes, it is okay to shoot late. But, you need to maintain the 12 hour gap between shots after that, so tomorrow night, you would shoot 12 hours from the morning shot. You can gradually adjust "backwards" after that, by 15 minutes per cycle, to get back to your normal schedule.
How late are we talking about?
Carl
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Carl & Bob said:
Yes, it is okay to shoot late. But, you need to maintain the 12 hour gap between shots after that, so tomorrow night, you would shoot 12 hours from the morning shot. You can gradually adjust "backwards" after that, by 15 minutes per cycle, to get back to your normal schedule.
How late are we talking about?
Carl
Click to expand...
I won't be late because I changed my plans, indefinitely....I planned on hunting all week, but Gobbles is more important--let the men do the hunting...because there would be no way I could be home by 11:30...I do, however, want to move back his 12 hour plan....as you said...if I go backwards 15 minutes a day (2 12 hour doses), I can get him to where I want him...but by "per cycle" do you mean twice a day go back 15 minutes (he is on a 12 hour schedule) or once per day??? I hope I am making sense....
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

You can either back up by 15 minutes each cycle (so twice per day),
OR
You can back up one time per day, by 30 minutes.

By "cycle", I mean the time between two shots. So instead of 12 hours, it would be 11 hours and 45 minutes.

Carl
 
Re: Just diagnosed...questioning my vet's advice after resea

Carl & Bob said:
You can either back up by 15 minutes each cycle (so twice per day),
OR
You can back up one time per day, by 30 minutes.

By "cycle", I mean the time between two shots. So instead of 12 hours, it would be 11 hours and 45 minutes.

Carl
Click to expand...
Thanks Carl...then I can back him off twice as fast...today his 1 U. is at 11:30 so his next (12) shot I will give at 11:15....
 
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