Jerry needs your help - AMPS 110

Status
Not open for further replies.

HappyCat

Member Since 2013
So to begin Jerry and I are following the Lantus Tight Regulation. BJM suggested I pop over here to see if you guys can't help clear up some questions I've had over Jerry over his progress and having NADIRs higher than his preshots. Hopefully you guys can help. A summary of his progress:
It took awhile to find his perfect dose, first it was too much then not enough then he settled into 1.75 units. Since then he's had constant reductions and not a single one has failed, on the 9th it's been 6 months of treatment and he's down to .25 unit. Very exciting but this is where we're running into speedbumps.
I hadn't ever figured out how to bring him down safely, every reduction taken was from him falling below 50. His reduction down to .75 came at a 23 reading so that concerned me. Out of nowhere it hit me that his NADIRs always get higher than his preshot before he earns a reduction. Any time I wondered if he would get a reduction he got one, and any time I wondered it was over reverse NADIRs. I took him down from .75 to .50 on my hunch, the folks on the Tight Regulation forum weren't sure about it but I was right and not too much longer afterwards they said his numbers were good enough to bring him down another reduction to .25. Exciting stuff but I don't have him figured out.
It's not a constant but probably half the time for awhile his NADIRs are higher than his preshots even after reductions. I've done a range of testings to keep an eye on him and it hasn't given me any answers. It was recommended to record his feeding times but I'm not sure food is the problem. I didn't know at first that a +8 feeding is good for the pancreas so it's something we've been working on a couple months. He had been on a PS feeding and a +6, now he's got the PS and if not +6 broken into 2 smaller meals at a +4 or 5 and +8. He's been on Friskie's Pate from the start, he's grateful for his diet even, but he did get bored with the flavors. He had been getting the combo pack of mixed grill and turkey (giblets?) but was sassing me about it so I switch it up for him with some of their other pates going easy on the seafood. Mainly food is a constant and his dose is the variable so I guess that's why I'm doubtful it's the food. I'm willing to do nutritional info for his other flavors but I'm thinking it's something else.
His numbers aren't at all terrible just are known to pop up in the wrong order. I don't know what to make of what's going on and I sure don't know what to expect. I've read these weird readings can mean either too much or not enough insulin and unfortunately those are the only 2 options rather than to hang out and not know what's going on. I've thought about fattening his dose but then I get greens and don't want him to fall below on me. I've thought about shaving his dose but don't want a yellow reading now especially since he used to live in the pink and red zone and even had some scary black readings in the beginning.
He's telling me something I just don't know what. I think he's on his way to remission which maybe it's just hopeful thinking but it'd be nice to know how to get him there safely. So I guess what I'm wondering is how he looks on this .25 dose, any input on why his NADIRs are higher than preshots (general info or increase/decrease), and some OTJ information since I really don't feel prepared. He's a rebel but not without a cause, he's a happy cat.
Eek! Help?! We appreciate any input, thank you very much. :mrgreen:
 
Maybe time to investigate the drop method of dosing.

Take a syringe - used is Ok - and fill it with a colored fluid.
Gently squeeze out equal sized drops.
The objective is to be able to consistently create the same number of equal sized drops each time.

When you can do that, you might try dose decreases by a drop at a time.
 
Looking at his spreadsheet he's having inverse curves which should mean his dose is too high. With those numbers I personally would try an OTJ trial. I'd take him off and see if he can bring himself down.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Sarah, if you are following TR, and you want to try a reduction, the protocol says:
Try to go from 0.25u to 0.1u before stopping insulin completely.
Or do as BJM suggested and try going down a drop at a time.

Or it could be that the +4 or +5 meal is boosting him a bit before you do the mid cycle test, hence what looks like higher nadirs. You should try doing the mid cycle test a good 2 hours after his last meal.
 
Yes there is the drop method as well but I would try an OTJ trial with as stable as his numbers are I would only go to the drop method should he fail the trial. I have one that is on the drop method and its a pain in the arse to be consistent with dose. I also have one that has been in remission for the last 3 years that the lowest dose he ever received was .5

Every cat is different

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Oh happy day! :mrgreen:
Thank you everyone for the help I'm very relieved and confident that I know him well so that's an awesome feeling. While I haven't tried drop dosing I think I get what you're saying. I've noticed it trickle into the syringe by drops in this smaller dose and have gotten too much and been able to expel it with little drops.
I will probably be trying a .10 dosing or drops before going off the juice entirely. It may be the curves but he's had the occasional borderline bad reading so I hope to make sure he's ready before going cold turkey. He seems ready and may power through but he's very much babied. I'm ecstatic to have confirmation of what I was thinking which is the best case scenario. :mrgreen:
Does anyone have OTJ tips? I read you're looking for a 50-120 reading while on insulin but a 50-130 reading in an OTJ trial and the trial is something like 2 weeks is this true? Also how often do you test? 4+ a day seems excessive when not on the juice but wondering if I need at least 2 a day versus just 1? And if you are fortunate enough to get them otj if they pass your trial do you still do spotchecks like once a week or something? I think he's got this I really think it was diet related since not only was he a kibble cat but due to a tragedy kitten food was in the home short of a year and a half and he wouldn't stay out of it, but I'm hoping to be prepared if other factors were at play.
Thank you for the help!
:mrgreen:
 
With Maxwell my remission boy. I tested normally (he never was a TR cat ) the first 14 days that he was on the trial. His spreadsheet is still linked in my signature if you want to see how I tested him and well still test him. Now after 3+ years I only test if he seems off, or he's being a pain while I'm testing Autumn and Casey. lol

But we say a cat is officially OTJ if they can stay between 40-120 without insulin with the majority of those readings in the double digits. Maxwell says roughly between 60-80 While I have several civies that routinely run between 45-65 (yes I've been known to test all 16 of them)

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Great information thank you so much. Glad you've got one in remission and for so long too, great for him and gives me hope. I had to laugh at being tested by association. :lol: Any attention is good attention even if diabetic attention. Love that you guys are such cat lovers. Thanks for cheering us on.
 
With Dusty, a cat adopted out from a rescue I help, I only made it over to test a few times. Getting him on low carb food and Lantus got hime OTJ in roughly 2 to 4 weeks.
 
Wow 2-4 weeks that's incredible! I really think low carb food is the trick. I finally have a scale being shipped for Jerry since I can tell he's lost weight in a healthy way and as he trimmed up he got better results. When he started he was fat yet bony, now he's not bony but has slimmed up. He got to be a biiig boy stealing kitten chow so it's a big difference no pun intended. I hope he makes his way to the remission party with the good boys you guys have helped. :mrgreen:
 
OTJ Trial instructions. For future reference. After you decide that .01 unit dose is too high. ;-)

Here are the instructions for an OTJ trial:
  • Test at your normal AMPS and PMPS times. Feed multiple small meals throughout the day as much as possible (small meals are less likely to overwhelm a newly functioning pancreas). The morning test is now called the AMBG. The evening test is now called the PMBG.
  • If your cat is green (0-99 mg/L human meter, 0-130 mg/L pet meter, 0-5.5 mmoL) at your normal test times, no need to test further until the next "PS" time, just feed small meals and go about your day. If the numbers are blue (100-199 human meter, 130-230 pet meter, 5.5-11 mmoL), feed a small meal and test again after about 3 hours. Food raises BG's. So if the number is lower 3-4 hours after a meal, then the pancreas is working!
  • After 2 weeks, if everything is looking good, we have a party! And boy, do we party hearty. :cool:

Sometimes, the trial doesn't work the first time and we have to give a little more support by starting the cat with a tiny dose of insulin again. I had to do that with Wink. We simply start the cat back on a tiny dose of insulin to support the pancreas with healing for a bit longer. Our goal is a strong remission and it's better to be safe now then sorry later that you rushed it. With just a little more time we will probably get that strong remission we are looking for.
 
Deb & Wink great to hear from you, you've been helping us from the beginning and we adore you for that. Same to BJM & Wendy and Neko, you guys are his co-guardian angels too. Big thanks to everyone whose helped of course it was very helpful to hop over here I really appreciate it, thanks for stepping in Mel you're great. :mrgreen:
Deb that was just the information I was hoping for, you're amazing! :-D
I was wondering if they ever need an extra boost of reverting back to a couple drops to go OTJ, I can totally see him being one of those. I'm hoping the best for him as he's done so great but he also likes to keep me on my toes, imagine that. :lol: So it is great to know now not to get discouraged if it happens. I can deal with a small setback if needed after such awesome progress.
Thank you all again for being a part of Team Happy Cat. :mrgreen:
 
Yes, they can relapse and need insulin again.

You'll want to be vigilant for the signs of infection or other problems.
- increased urination volume? Check glucose. If glucose is fine, see vet to rule in/out renal disease and hyperthyroidism, 2 common conditions which increase urination. (There are other less common causes, too.)
- eye/nose mucus? Could be a respiratory infection. Home care is gentle wash of eyes with warm water and a cotton ball to remove gunk. Test glucose because infection often raises it. See vet if any difficulty breathing or glucose elevated (could be systemic infection requiring treatment)

Merck makes a Pet Owners Manual which is a good home reference to have.
Its online at http://www.merckmanuals.com
The more technical Veterinary Manual is there too.
 
During Wink's first OTJ trial, he got yet another UTI and his BG's shot up again, so I flunked him and put him back on a tiny dose of 0.1U for a bit. He cleared the UTI, got back into great numbers consistently under 100 and has stayed there for almost 11 months now.

So yes, a kitty may need just a tiny bit of insulin if the OTJ trial is not successful. We won't call the game, until the last inning (aka day 14).

So far so good.

Great to see that Jerry is doing so well and you are thinking of an OTJ trial. After a kitty leaves Feline Health, I don't usually follow them over to one of the ISG groups. There's just not enough of me and not enough time in a day to go around to help everywhere and I love helping the new folks. Glad I could chime in and give you those OTJ trial instructions.
 
That certainly makes sense Deb you're probably needed most in health but you popped up for Jerry and I just in time. :mrgreen:
I hope to be able to help others as you guys have helped me. It's been a tough journey but help here and just listening to him and what he's saying made all the difference. I'm fortunate to feel like one of the lucky ones since he really hasn't been too difficult. It was a bit hard in the beginning settling into that perfect dose, then here at the end where he's trying to go OTJ NOW he's gotten 3 reductions in 3 weeks - very exciting but was hard to know for sure what he was saying for awhile. I'm so proud of him. Hopefully a good motivator will be to hang out with Wink on remission road. :mrgreen:
BJM you're blowing my mind are you a mind reader? Very ironic that you said that. Not Jerry, knock on wood, but I do have another cat who could use your expertise. I found a stray, or rather a stray found me, before the weather got all ice age and I couldn't leave him outside. I need another cat like I need another hole in my head (and my ears are full so I sure don't need that) but I couldn't leave him. Someone loved him once he was neutered and declawed with mats in his fur and the sweetest thing, after it's hit -40 and beyond no regrets whatsoever. I got him into the vet for shots deworm and got a great deal to get him flea free. I've always wondered the best way to treat an upper respiratory infection because that adorable little pooper in Jerrys photo got it after her spay and she had eyedrops and an antibiotic that did nothing she kept flaring up. This stray in the last day or so is showing an upper respiratory infection and while I want to rush him in I'm not sure they'll make a huge difference. Do humidifiers help at all like people? Maybe it's just me but in this house there's a direct correlation between this ice age weather and upper respiratory infections. Everyones healthy year round and now is when I have problems I'm wondering if it's the dryness and severe cold. Sorry I'm needy but I needy your help lol just any other tidbits that could help uri at home. He's a damn handsome siamese mix I hope I can get him handsome again and 100% healthy. The good news is he hasn't made it out to meet everyone he's quarantined from the others till I got him flea free to avoid an epidemic so with the uri no need to worry about risk to others but sure would be nice to catch a break here. Your help on this hopefully final matter will make my day, you guys are my heroes!!!
 
Stress can unleash viruses that were previously controlled. Giving l-lysine, 500 mg daily, can help support the immune system. Home care includes using a warm, clean wipe to remove crusts of mucus.

If the cat seems to have difficulty breathing or is panting, go to the vet. Possibilities include pneumonia and heart failure, which can kill.

If the cat seems to have trouble urinating, go to the vet. Bladder obstruction can kill and is excruciatingly painful.

If the cat is urinating frequently, in small dribbles, go to the vet. Bladder infection or stones are likely.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top