Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing question

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HappyCat

HappyCat

Member Since 2013
Today Jerry's dose was increased from 1.50 to 1.75 units. I am very grateful for the help here I'm often unsure of the right thing to do.
Now with that being said I am curious about bouncing, as I always am. A few have been very helpful to explain the scale to me of the rise and fall of levels from the shot like the nadir time and everything. I certainly don't doubt information from pros but wondering if that could vary with bouncers. For instance Jerry was always hitting his lows at 5-7 hours in to his AM shot until about the time he hit his 1 month of treatment. Now he's usually high in his AM mid readings and low towards his next shot. Wondering why my only experience with a diabetic cat has to be so difficult, especially when he's not at all difficult except for this. Is this from him adjusting to his (previously) not high enough dose? Can bouncers break that normal trend of the nadir and hit at +9 or so? Trying to figure him out is absolutely maddening. I know AM readings are higher than PM readings generally but I'm having problems finding his day time lows anymore unless they're bordering the PM shot or just not happening at all. However the PM numbers seem to drop drastically quickly as soon as +3. I can sense I'm going to be losing a lot of sleep as night would be the time (if ever, knock on wood) for him to be in the danger zone and it seems like a big span versus during the day. Any further input on if +5-7AM is where his bouncy butt would in fact be most accurate with his wild variance, any other bouncing information I should know about, or just anything in general would be appreciated. Most of all send us lots of luck! Happy cat, tired owner!
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

Most cats go lower at night, so I'm not surprised to see the lower numbers you're getting after the PMPS shot.

Bouncing is normal, and all of our cats do it to some degree. A bounce happens when the insulin brings the BG numbers down into unfamiliar territory. The liver "panics" and releases hormones and glucogen(sugar) to bring it back up to where it's "Used to". Bounces can take up to 72 hours to clear, so we never want to increase doses while they're bouncing.

As you get Jerry's diabetes under better control, he won't bounce as high, and will clear the bounce faster. China used to bounce into the 400's and take pretty much the whole 72hrs to clear them. Now that she's under better control, her liver has learned that the lower numbers are OK so she doesn't bounce as high, and clears them faster too.

Does this help?
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

Thank you that does help being new to this I'm focused on the daily aspect of tracking things I forget sometimes it does span into a whole picture. Now I'm hoping he'll get to settle into his perfect dose!
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

Sarah

here is what a typical lantus cycle looks like:

+0 - PreShot number.
+1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
+2 - Often similar to the PreShot number.
+3 - Lower than the PreShot number, onset has started.
+4 - Lower.
+5 - Lower.
+6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle).
+7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
+8 - Slight rise.
+9 - Slight rise.
+10 - Rising.
+11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
+12 - PreShot number.
Click to expand...

Until 9/9, Jerry was having cycles that look like this. But cats cycles can change. They can flip flop; the nadirs can move; they can start or stop bouncing.

On 9/9 a.m. cycle, Jerry cleared his bounce so his lowest number of the day was at his +12. If you had posted, we would have helped you shoot long before +14 so he wouldn't have gone so high. It would have been fine for you to shoot at the 149.

On 9/10, there really isn't any difference between a 231 and 252 considering 20% meter variance.

What I'm seeing is that he has, in fact, flip flopped his cycles. before 9/9, he was clearing bounces in the a.m. And now he's clearing them in the p.m.

While I know it is challenging, he's not doing anything out of the unusual. He looks very similar to many cats' cycles.

I also know we want to understand exactly what they are doing and always find that pattern. Sometimes, you just have to say "he's a cat" and just follow his lead. If you stand back and look at his SS as waves of action,you should be able to see what I've explained above.

Please let me know if this helps or makes it muddier.
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

That is very helpful especially knowing a nadir can change. The bounces worry me but are starting to make more sense.
My main question now would be when is it safe to shoot? I had held off at 149 because being new to this (8/9) I had been told not to shoot below 200. I have an emergency kit if he falls too low haven't had to use it thankfully. What's the lowest you'd recommend shooting when not yet an expert? Always aappreciate the help thank you!
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

Our no shoot number in LL is 50 :-D however, if you look at "Dealing with Low Preshots" in my signature block, we recommend you post for help when shooting your first number under 150. We can show you what's going on (e.g dropping number vs second dip) and advise you on options.

We like to build your confidence gradually so in no time, you'll be comfy shooting green numbers above 50 on your own.

None of us are experts.....just varying degrees of experience but most members are shooting green numbers above 50 within a couple months. We teach you how to do it safely.
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

We generally use 200 as a "no shoot" number for new members, but as you get more data on how Jerry responds to both insulin and food, that number comes down. Here in Lantus Land, that "no shot" number is 150. Eventually you'll learn to shoot when they're above 50. It's called "shooting low to stay low". We want to keep them in those lower numbers to help their pancreas heal. The more time they're in those green and low blues, the better.

If you're concerned on whether to shoot or not, you should "stall".... you don't give a shot, you don't feed, and post and ask for help. Add the ? icon to your post and maybe add something like "Shoot?? Advice needed" to the subject line. Remember, the only post we can easily see without expanding the entire thread is the very first one, so when you edit to add a question, make sure you go to the first post of that day to do it (if it's not your first post of the day in the first place)
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

Lantus land, nice touch I like that. Thank you for the great information, I had done the right steps to stalling just great to know my new target shoot range. Makes sense as so much can change in an hour and he's always on the rise when his time comes. You've been amazing!
:mrgreen:
 
Re: Jerry 9/16/13 AMPS 354 +6 224 PMPS 313 + bouncing questi

Again....want to clarify. Our no shoot number here is 50. If you get a 150, you can shoot it but if it worries you, post for help.
 
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