Jack 4/30 frustrated

Status
Not open for further replies.
Darlene & Jack

Darlene & Jack

Active Member
So my lower dose seemed to work for a few days, then he was higher in the afternoon. Decided to increase a bit back to .6 and will see what happens. Readings always seem to be so up and down with just a tiny change in dosage. Was reading another thread on here with several comments about difficulties on ProZinc and got a bit discouraged and feeling rather frustrated. :-( The vet wanted me to email her the updated spreadsheet today so I did that this morning and asked if a switch in insulin might be order. Will see what she says.

In the meantime, I guess I will see what Jack does on the .6 for a few days. Any other suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
 
Unfortunately any dose changes might cause their bg's to flucuate some. The Lantus group calls it "New Dose Wonkyness". It comes with the territory.

You could go to the other ISG's and read their stickies about the other insulins and see if one of those might be a better fit.
 
I think you are doing pretty well actually. I know all the variance in #s is frustrating, but you are hitting good #s quite a bit of the time. He does seem to get some pretty big drops and you might find that on another insulin the curves are shallower and so you can stay more steadily in good #s.

If it were me and my schedule permitted, I would probably consider trying a few days of some version of as needed shooting - picking a level like 150 or 180 where you want to give a shot, and going ahead and giving insulin then (past nadir that is) to see if you can keep the ride pretty steadily in the blues & greens and head off the higher #s. That way you promote faster pancreas healing, and avoid the wide swings in #s. It's pretty daunting though in terms of your schedule & burning through test strips, as you always have to be sure you have a rising # to shoot. We've seen some great progress made that way though, so you might want to consider it if your schedule permits.

Sometimes just a few days even of solid blue rides will make a huge difference. The dosing is tricky though as you have to pare back the dose for early shots. You might even be able to get away with +10 or +11 shots (if warranted) for a few days, and make progress that way.

It's hard for me to discern right now how much he is getting some rebound from the steep drops, and how much he is in liver training and throwing high #s b/c of that. I see what looks like both in the SS, so that makes it a little tougher on you I think to nail down the dose. He's seeing lots of blues though, so hopefully that will get the liver training portion to settle down fairly soon, and that should make things easier.
 
Hi Darlene,
Just reviewed the ss. Wow, yes I can see your frustration...there seems to be very little if any trending and very little staying power toward the end of the cycle.
This is why my Thomas went with Lev. It holds longer.
I do believe Mrs. Jack uses Lev. or did use Lev and you may find that in itself helpful.
I use Lev.
I don't dislike Pro zinc but do find better healthier results there for the kitties that could'nt make it on PZ.
My kitty was totally out of control...I mean totally,,,,,now, my biggest problems are, personal...and not about the CAT! It was a very sweet change.
Pm me if you need anything.
Best to you,
Lori
and Lord Thomas
 
Thanks Joanna and Lori. The early shoots will be hard for me to try, except if I am home to do it on the weekends. We've been able to get the frequent readings so far because of my daughter being home in the mornings to get them. But starting Monday she won't be, so I'll probably be only able to get the AMPS and then maybe the +9 if I can get my son to do that one. Then I can get the evening ones.

It is frustrating when jack only gets into the blues for a short period of time, then goes right back up. I will follow up with a call to the vet on Monday to talk to her about maybe trying Levemir. If it works for Mrs. Jack and Lord Thomas (did he get invited to the royal wedding?), then maybe it will help Mr. jack. :-) The sugar dance is more of a sugar coaster.
 
Hi Lori (and Lord Thomas),
So i got an email back from the vet. She was pretty happy with Jack's numbers but understands the curves are gentler on Lantus or Levemir and may sustain the lower numbers longer. She said no one in their practice has used Levemir yet, but she is willing to try it with Jack if I would like. She said she would just need to do some research to review dosing. I looked on the Levemir board at the stickies and was going to try to send her a few of the articles. Any ideas on dosing to start Jack off on if we decide to try this? Today he had a very weird day. I don't know if he went very low at +6, but I was shocked at his PMPS reading of 133. Then 2 hours he was 373, so I gave half a dose. Wasn't sure if I should have given the whole dose or not with it being later.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks! (I was trying to send a PM but couldn't get it to go through)
Darlene and Jack
 
Darlene, I got the same response from my vet. I was the first one she gave it to.
Her starting dose she based on his weight(????) 3 units.
I just said ok, and got out of there with my script.
I knew better.
I started Thomas on 1 unit.
I'll pm you.
Did you find out if Mrs. Jack is currently on Levemir.
It is truly the best thing that has happened to Tom as far as regulating him goes.
Lori
and Lord Thomas.
 
You can usually give a full dose on a late shot like that, especially with the PS that high. No worries though. He will probably be higher in the morning, but don't let that phase you.

You might experiment again with doses like 0.4 and 0.5. The 0.6 looks like it was a little strong last night (pretty big drop by +3), and again today leaving him too low to shoot tonight. I know the other cycles on 0.6 don't look like the dose was too high, that's what makes it such a challenge. You just have to react to each bit of data you get though, and revise your doses based on that.
 
Thanks Joanna, never had to deal with a low ps number before! He was 335 for AMPS today, so not so bad. I went with a 0.5 dose this morning.
 
Looking at today's data I'd try 0.4. You got close to a 50% drop by +3, when ideally you want just a moderate drop by then, and maybe 65% total by nadir. It's kind of guesswork, especially when his response is varied it seems like with each cycle - some are perfect, some are icky, and then it seems to be different the next day, so go figure. See what others think - that's what comes to mind to me (but I'm not married to it!).
 
Joanna....I like your comment about some days numbers are icky! That's exactly how I feel, I never quite know for sure what I will get when I wait for that meter read out!
Decided to try the 0.5 again today. Lori and I had a long discussion last night, not sure if we figured anything out from the crazy numbers.

Lori, tried the food experiment this morning...fed Jack a little after 5am and then checked him an hour later and the number did go up (349 to 420). I guess no sputtering from the pancreas this morning, but I can try doing this again in the next few days to see if I get any different numbers.
 
well it was a chance possiblity. i'll be watching your chart today k? working then ping pong from 10-4 and i'll be home after that. allegedly. mighty unusual chart Darlene...mighty unusual for pzi especially. Joanne...notice the up and downs by 10 or so points at at times...that is the type of just hang time you see with levemir...and is pretty unusual with pzi. Jack has several of those.
Also lower amps than a previous number....a double dip? also a levemir feature.
does this look the the type of chart you might see here????
Lori
and Lord Thomas.
 
I can't remember, Darlene. Does Jack free feed during the day and night? Sometimes when their numbers are generally good at the low doses but they seem to fluctutate, you can alter the feeding schedule and play the numbers. Feeding overnight can make a big difference in some cats also. This may have been what Lori was talking about. Does he eat the same % carb all the time or mix it up?

A curve this weekend at the little higher dose might be interesting, maybe with food given at that initial low drop he sometimes gets. What do others think?
 
Welcome back Sue!! We have missed you, though everyone else has taken good care of us. :-) Jack does free feed, the auto feeder usually goes off around 3am. Sometimes he eats it, sometimes he doesn't. He only eats Fancy Feast Classic, either chicken or chicken and beef. During the day the auto feeder goes off at different intervals too, but the doesn't seem to eat as much during the day. The last few nights he has seemed to eat a little more. So are you saying feeding during the night is good or not good? At first I wasn't feeding overnight but was told to try it as he would probably do better with food out.

Lori, even though Jack didn't get into the blues today, he did hang at the same numbers for several hours today as you noticed a few times.

I did email the vet today about Levemir and a few of the articles. Will wait to hear what she says.
 
It's that ECID thing, but in general, small frequent meals do seem to help.

I knew that Lori, Robin and Johanna would do their usual fantastic job helping. It is so great to have multiple responses for every post.
 
God, so happy to see Sue!
Darlene just took a look at your curve today.
The red amps, well that was a 'normal' response to the full breakfast an hour earlier.
The rest of the curve looks really quite normal. hang time...yes...but no ups and downs...and he ended up in a full curve that was'nt too steep.
I know we did'nt get the 'colors' we like to see...but over all this was a good curve.
Me? perhaps one more day on .5 and then barring any changes it on to .6. ooooooohhhh,,,,,Scary! I think it may be good.
Let's see if Joanna feels similiar. I know she was for a dose decrease.... would love to hear her thought.
Lori
 
Darlene & Jack said:
Lori and I had a long discussion last night, not sure if we figured anything out from the crazy numbers.
Click to expand...

Everyone p-l-e-a-s-e be careful & toe the line! I don't remember off the top of my head what the rules are, but please be sure you are following them! There are lots of stickies up top, I know this was an issue earlier, right? Maybe the rules have changed. I am not a phone person so I don't worry about it, not an issue for me, you have to pay me to spend time on the phone (unless you are my mom :roll: ), so that's why I don't remember the rules.

On a different note, Lori, I don't think PZI has a hang time. Sometimes they will trough some, but I don't know of any true hang-time that is insulin and not pancreas related. If the numbers are flat it is likely the dose is too low, unless it's a rebound thing.

Lower PS than a mid-cycle # is typically a sign the dose is too high. I have never seen or heard of a double dip with PZI.

Darlene, I'm too tired to really get my mind around the data today, sorry. My first instinct is the dose is too low, and whatever was going on a day or two ago is ancient history. I'm not married to that though - the varied response kitties confuze me. With Bix, varied response was universally too little insulin, but I'm not sure that's true of every kitty.
 
About the phone conversation.
No dosing advice.
The SS was soooooo unusal, and different from you Joanna...I find it hard to really look at a SS without using a phone. I like the phone cause it's much more information quickly. We just perused the SS and looked for rythm or reason...could'nt really find it.
But did at least clarify the unusual swings. And Joanna,,,the lower pmps was not just lower than an earlier test. No, it was definetly a double dip...there was a lower...than a higher...than a lower again...No Dosing Advice....
Just sayin.
Lori
Please don't 'report' me. just trying to help.
 
No I wouldn't do that!!!! :YMHUG: I just cringe whenever I read those kinds of comments... don't want anyone getting into trouble!

You mean like lower at +6, then high at +9, the lower again at +12? That's a rebound pattern.
 
yes that is what I mean...and I thought so too. time and again as we looked it over i thought..hmmm, rebound.
i just did'nt want it to be rebound...
it is really the most confusing piece of work i've looked at.
and i know YOU won't report me! others??? Don't Do It!
I guess she ruled out TLFD (tom like food drop) :lol:
 
i'm sorry if I mentioned anything...didn't know it was a rule that you couldn't talk on the phone? Sorry i brought it up. :-(

Like Lori said, all we really tried to do was make sense of the numbers and the ups and downs.
 
don't worry about it Darlene...no problem.
looks like mrs. jack is a lev user...did you see that?
 
Good Morning Darlene
Saw Red Jack this morning...but actually 2 days of similiar (exactly) amps/pmps and a normal curve, not the worst news.
If you want to up to .6 tonight go for it...even if he is high yellow. You will get a test or two in right?
Lori
 
Just saw this post Lori...my plan was to try .6 tonight, but then I posted about the rest of Jack's reading today. I don't why he was red all day, don't know if he came down after +3 reading (I hope he did). I guess I will try .6 since he really seems to react to just a slight change in dose. Will hang out for a little bit and if get no responses on the new thread will go with .6.

And yes, I did see that Mrs. Jack is on Lev. :-)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top