I've calmed down..Beth Anne and Sonny

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tailzmom

Member Since 2013
Thank you to everyone....I'm not testing yet..The BG...I'm afraid NOT to give him some insulin. .He is eating every 3-4 Hours..should I just hang back from shooting him?...He has back leg weakness....Also PEES cup full at a time..I'm really depending on you guys..With him already on low carb...just not sure if I should dose him..
Help... :-))
 
Welcome Beth Anne and Sonny,

sounds like Sonny has diabetic neuropathy.
Methylcobalamin B12 will help with that. (make sure you don't get regular b-12 - colbalamin
Here is a link for one that is in capsule form that you can just add to their food. http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitami ... 0-capsules
It does have a trace of rice flour.

The purest form is this pill from Zobaline

this is a tablet that you will either have to give as a pill or crush.


It takes 2-3 months to make a difference but it does really help. Neuropathy is very common for diabetics ( humans or cats)
 
It's safest for Sonny to learn to test first, especially if you've changed his diet to low carb lately. The tests done at the vets are up to 200 points higher than they'd be at home, so what was a 400 there, could be a 200 at home, and if there is a diet change too, that could bring it down even more.

A few more days of higher numbers isn't going to make much difference, but shooting blind might make a tragic difference

Why don't you take the weekend and see if you can test him? Some cats aren't so hard to test and if you can, you could start insulin even sooner. Get your supplies together and let's get you testing, and then we'll be able to safely help to advise you on what to do next.

As always, in the end, it's your decision since you hold the syringe, but our first rule is to be safe.

We won't let you down..we promise

Here's her earlier post http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=109000
 
Ok..I will pick up a meter..which is the easiest mist accurate?..All MY CATS HAVE been on FANCY FEAST..For a long time.. so the food issue i think i have under control...I just don't want his neuropathy to worsen..Please advise. .and thank you!! How do i decide?..will the insulin help neuropathy?..BA and Sonny
 
The insulin helps but the methyl-b12 is the most help for neuropathy.
The dose is or 3000-5000 mcg.
This is a B vitamin so the body only takes what it needs and pees off the rest.
I used the vitacost one myself because I wanted to be able to just open a capsule and stir it in the food ( turns the food pink) .
The zobaline is a tablet that you will have to crush or give a pill to your cat.
 
If you opt to look for it locally.... make sure it's methylcobalamin, not cobalamin. And look a the ingredients, some add sugar and cherry flavoring.
You don't want sugar or cherry.
I never found any at walmart.... you need a pharmacy with a large vitamin variety to be able to find it in a store.
 
If cost is important, many here have the Relion meter from walmart. the strips are one of the cheapest out there and it's a good one.
Avoid anything with tru in the name. those are inaccurate.

I bought an Accu-chek meter and the strips run 40/50 cents each.... same for my Bayer Contour.
I just buy strips in bulk on ebay.
 
Here's your "getting started" shopping list Mary Anne

1. Meter ie Walmart Relion Confirm or Micro. (the Confirm and Micro take the smallest blood sample, so are good for new ears...Once the ears "learn to bleed", the Prime meter/strips are the cheapest way to go)
2. Matching strips
3. Lancets - little sticks to poke the ear to get blood . New members usually start with a larger gauge lancet such as 28g or 29g until the ear learns to bleed. Optional - lancing tool.
4. Cotton balls to stem the blood
5. Neosporin or Polysporin ointment with pain relief to heal the wound
6. Mini flashlight (optional) - useful to help see the ear veins in dark cats, and to press against
7. Ketone urine test strips ie ketodiastix - Important to check ketones when blood is high
8. Sharps container - to dispose of waste syringes and lancets.
9. Treats for the cat - like freeze dried chicken
10. Karo syrup/corn syrup or honey if you dont have it at home - for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast
11. A couple of cans of fancy feast gravy lovers or other high carb gravy food- for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast
 
Yes, the methyl B-12 can help for the neuropathy, but the biggest help will be to get the BG (blood glucose) numbers under control.

Wink had severe diabetic neuropathy when I started to foster him back in January 2013. Could not jump, walking on his hocks, barely walked 3-4 steps before he had to stop and rest. Today, with his BG's under control, his diabetic neuropathy is almost gone. He jumps everywhere, scaring his mommabean half to death when he jumps up on the kitchen island when the gas stove is on! :o :shock: :o Long cat fur and open flames do not mix well. ohmygod_smile Wink does still walk with kind of a splayed back leg waddle, but he walks mostly up on his tippy toes like a normal cat instead of down on his hocks. That was awful to see and so nice to see his "normal" gait now.

Hang in there, it takes time, several weeks to a couple of months to see improvement in the neuropathy.
 
rhiannon and shadow said:
If you opt to look for it locally.... make sure it's methylcobalamin, not cobalamin. And look a the ingredients, some add sugar and cherry flavoring.
You don't want sugar or cherry.
I never found any at walmart.... you need a pharmacy with a large vitamin variety to be able to find it in a store.

You can often find Methyl B12 in health food stores, such as Native Sun & Whole Foods. Also if you have a Vitamin Shoppe in your area, they carry it too.
 
Just wanted to say, regarding the methylcobalamin (zobaline, et al) You do NOT have to give it as a pill, it dissolves quite readily in a tiny amount of water, you can just add it directly to the food.
 
What kind of insulin is it?

You say they have always been on Fancy feast? Always the pates or other types too? Any dry at all?

Wendy
 
Prior thread on Sonny

Beth Anne just got her insulin yesterday (Lantus) and I've been encouraging her to use the weekend to learn to test before starting it. She was also concerned about the neuropathy she's seeing in Sonny

Her vet told her to start at 2 units twice/day, but after talking to her some, she said she'll start at 1 unit.

Beth Anne...how are you doing with testing? There are lots of videos on YouTube on how to test. Here's one [youtube]_zE12-4fVn8[/youtube]

Once you're on YouTube, if you look for "How to test your cat's blood sugar", you'll see even more videos to help show you how it's done. Remember, there are few pain receptors in the edge of the ear, so this doesn't hurt...mostly cats just object to having their ears fooled with, but they get over it with conditioning and lots of yummy low carb treats (like freeze dried chicken)

Let us know how we can help you!
 
Hi Wendy..yes..mostly pates..Some saucy ones but I have eliminated those...He was eating dry...but I gave eliminated that as well..I am documenting time and food amts...and its been every 3-4 hours..With the overnight being about 6 hours...
I will get a meter today and lancets..what gauge should I start with?..He is bright eyed and looks good..The neuropathy is evident so I will look for the recommended Capsules at Walgreens...If I can't find the methyl there..I'll go to vitacost...I have visited the site already...I'll check back in later..I love the list you provided me with..just need the meter..already got the ketone strips...You have no idea how grateful I am to you all...and sorry about the 911 ...I think I have all my marbles in one place...ALSO..I'm wondering if my other cats have known he was sick all along and I didn't pick up on it??...since we are aware now..The other cats seem to have calmed..and there is little hissing and stare downs..lol..what a loving group you are!!..Thank you for embracing me and Sonny especially..I can see how dosing without knowledge can be fatal..and I DON'T WANT THAT..~♡~ B A n Sonny
 
On the lancets, it's better to start with 26 or 28 gauge. They're usually marked "alternate site" lancets. They're a little bigger so work better until the ears "learn to bleed". As the ear gets poked, it develops more capillaries in that area and will bleed easier..then you can go to the smaller lancets.(the higher the gauge, the smaller the needle..seems backwards but that's how it is...lol)

Another trick that will really help when you first start out is to warm the ear. You can put a little rice (or oatmeal) into a small sock, tie it closed and warm it in the microwave for about 15-20 seconds (always test it on your wrist first like you'd test a baby bottle) and hold it against Sonny's ear before you poke. Another thing you can use is a small pill bottle filled with warm water. I liked that because it gave me something hard to poke against.

You can poke either side of either ear..it doesn't make any difference.

Here are some great Ear testing tips that can be helpful too as well as showing you where the "sweet spot" is.

Another member here has also written up Ear testing psychology that can be very helpful
 
Heard from vet..NO KETONES..she is still in distant on shooting her.....what is nadir???can't cipher that?..and
1) test in AM pre feed and pre shot?..or after eating and preshot?
2)then at +2 hours after eating and so on..hourly to get readings?
3)what # am I looking for to keep from shooting him?..100th or lower?
4) under 50 is HYPO?
 
nadir is the lowest bg of the cycle ( a cycle is every 12 hours - thus am cycle and pm cycle )

test , shoot and feed all basically at the same time. I myself would load my syringe, get the food ready, and test bg. Then I would put food down
in front of her face and shoot while her face was in the food. ( and hope she would cooperate)


each hour after you've given the shot.... +2, +6, etc.... but you don't do every one .... you skip around until the numbers drop lower and dictate that you
test/monitor more frequently.

if you continue posting in the main forum, the ask for help number before shooting is 200 ( for the first time)
if you move over to the tight regulation lantus forum, ( but that doesn't mean you have to do tight regulation, you just have a lot of lantus people there )
then you need to have a spreadsheet and they prefer that you test at preshot and at least one time during the cycle. Most of us test more than once
during a cycle.


a hypo is generally a number under 40. Some cats show symptoms at 40 and some don't show symptoms until it's really bad and they could be at 20 or lower.

Your cat never ever really needs to go below 30 so the moment you ever see a number close to that, you start giving syrup /honey and high carb gravy
and try to raise the numbers. And if the cat isn't responding to the syrup /gravy, then it's time to go to ER vet and get them on a dextrose drip.
A newly diagnosed diabetic cat doesn't need to ever drop below 49 so you can start giving a medium carb gravy to boost the numbers.
49 is what earns your cat a dose reduction.

Cats that have been doing this for years have to go under 50 three separate times for a dose reduction or below 40 one time for a reduction.
 
The Pre-shot and pre-feeding test is to determine if it is safe to give insulin.
If he is < 200 mg/dL, no shot. Wait 30 minutes WITHOUT food and retest. Check in with the board. As you collect data in the +5 to +7 hours after a shot, you will learn how he responds to insulin and may learn to shoot at lower levels.

When you can, get tests in the +5 to +7 hours after a shot. Its when Lantus makes the glucose lowest. We call that the nadir.

If you get a test < 50 mg/dL (human glucometer), you treat it as a hypo.

*********************************************​

Here are some glucose reference ranges used for decision making using glucometers. Human glucometer numbers are given first. Numbers in parentheses are for non-US meters. Numbers in curly braces are estimates for an AlphaTrak.

< 40 mg/dL (2.2 mmol/L) {< 70 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Treat as if HYPO if on insulin
- At nadir (lowest point between shots) in a long term diabetic (more than a year), may earn a reduction.

< 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) {< 80 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- If before nadir, steer with food, ie, give modest amounts of medium carb food to keep from going below 50 (2.8).
- At nadir, often indicates dose reduction is earned.

50 - 130 mg/dL (2.8 - 7.2 mmol/L) {80 - 160 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- On insulin - great control when following a tight regulation protocol.
- Off insulin - normal numbers.
(May even go as low as the upper 30s (1.7 mmol/L){60s for an AlphaTrak}; if not on insulin, this can be safe.

= 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- no shot limit for ProZinc, PZI, or other non-depot insulins

> 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- At nadir, indicates a dose increase may be needed when following a tight regulation protocol.

200 mg/dL (11.1 mmol/L) {230 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- no shot level for beginners; may slowly reduce to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {180 mg/dL} for long-acting insulins (Lantus, Levemir, and ProZinc) as data collection shows it is safe

180 - 280 mg/dL (10 - 15.6 mmol/L) {may be 210 - 310 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}- Any time - The renal threshold (depending on data source and cat's renal function) where glucose spills into the urine.
- Test for ketones, glucose is too high.

>= 280 mg/dL (15.6 mmol/L) {may be >=310 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}, if for most of the cycle between shots
- Uncontrolled diabetes and thus at risk for diabetic ketoacidosis and hepatic lipidosis
- Follow your insulin protocol for dose adjustments
- Test for ketones; if more than a trace level of ketones, go to vet ASAP.
 
No ketones is good news.

Was it your vet that didn't know what nadir meant or you? If it's your vet, she definitely needs to read up on how to treat diabetes

The nadir is the point in each cycle where the insulin is working it's BEST...usually around +5 to +8 but can change from cat to cat, and even from day to day. That's another reason testing is so important...to learn how YOUR cat reacts since ECID (every cat is different)

1) test in AM pre feed and pre shot?..or after eating and preshot?
We always FIRST pre-test before giving any insulin to make sure it's safe to give it. With 2 cycles per day, you'll have to Pre-shot numbers, AMPS and PMPS

You don't want Sonny to have any food for the 2 hours prior to Pre-shot tests so the number isn't influenced by food.

If the Pre-shot number is a "shootable" number, then you'd either immediately feed/shoot, or shoot/feed. (I like to feed/shoot just so I know she's going to eat for me but once she's eating, I shoot her while her head is in the bowl).

2)then at +2 hours after eating and so on..hourly to get readings?
Getting a +2 or +3 is a great test to get because it can give you an idea of how active the cycle is going to be..If there's a big difference between a Pre-shot number and a +2, you should be prepared to test more frequently that cycle. If you want to do a curve for your vet, you'd test every 2 hours for one complete cycle...or you can do a mini-curve which is every 3 hours for one complete cycle.

3)what # am I looking for to keep from shooting him?..100th or lower?
IF your pre-shot number is under 200, STALL (don't feed) and post and ask for help. Change the subject line to say something like "Stalling, please help" so we know you're needing some advice quickly. 200 is the "no shoot" number (without advice) for now, but as you get more data on how Sonny responds to both insulin and food, that number comes down.

4) under 50 is HYPO?
If you get a test under 50, it means you need to reduce the insulin.. but when you do get a number under 50, you'll want to ask for help. This is when you'd use the 911 icon (remember, it has to be changed on the first post of the thread for us to see it)

At some point you ARE going to get a number under 50. That's one of the reasons we're so big on home testing. If you do and nobody is around to answer you quickly, read and follow this How to handle a hypo. We strongly suggest you print it out and keep it with your hypo kit in case the message board is down or you have internet connection issues.

Before you start shooting, you should have your hypo kit ready, and be comfortable testing Sonny. Did you get any testing done today? We have a spreadsheet you can use that will make it easier for us to follow you along and help advise you on dosage as you go. Here's How to get your spreadsheet so you can start working on it as you get some testing done
 
UPDATE: GOT READING OF 260 :

I cannot figure this posting out..anyway..260..that was 3 hours after meal..should I give him 1 unit and test 1+ and 2 +..etc.. I have NOT given any insulin at all..is it time? BA
 
Hi Beth Anne!

When you're testing, please pick up Sonny's food at least 2 hours prior to his pre-shot tests so they aren't food influenced. Do you have an idea of what time is best for you to be able to shoot every 12 hours? That will have to figure in on whether you shoot tonight or wait until morning.

We'd also need to know what time zone you're in

When you have a minute, would you please go ahead and put some information into your signature? It'll help to keep us from asking the same questions over and over again.

Just go to "User Control Panel" (top left side of page)
Go to "Profile" (you can put where you live there)
Go to "Edit Signature" and put your name, Sonny, date of diagnosis, what insulin you'll be using, type of glucometer you're using, and any other health problems Sonny has. Once you get your spreadsheet up and working, you'd also add the link to it to this same Signature block.

Save and you're done!
 
Good job on the spreadsheet. We don't advise newbies shoot under 200, so 260 was fine.


I usually recommend 3-4 tests a day

- always before the shot - this is mandatory as you don't want to shoot when too low. As a newbie this too low number is 200 but is reduced over time once you have the data to know if its safe.
- mid cycle - 5-7 hours after morning shot depending on your schedule. This is to see how low he is going. The low point "nadir" is what you base dose changes on since you don't want him dropping too low (under 50).
- before bed (2-3hours after Pm shot) to get an idea of what his overnight plans are. If this number is less than the pre shot test number you may want to set the alarm for a test a few hours later as this implies an active cycle.

Wendy
 
Hi all...been pretty successful with shooting and testing...has been as low as 151...up to 310 just a few hours ago..I'm pre shot testing..everytime..been in 250-285 range..how long does it take for the depot to fill up?..what happens when it does?..and when it's full do I back off shooting or just reduce dosage?..also..I have 3 civvies..2 are acting funny..not eating and hiding..are they sensing him being special needs?...his scent/ aura making them sympathetic?..getting a bit worried..one is a hog that will claw u to get up and feed him..The other is a complete doll who us just happy to be here..any insight?..Thx..BA and Sonny
 
Oh gosh! When I first brought Wink Wink into my home to foster, my other two cats kind of got short shrift for a while. There was so much to do, getting Wink settled into his new quarters, trying to get him switched over from high carb dry food to low carb wet food, grooming his horribly matted fur, earning his trust and getting him so he would let me ear test him, trying to juggle my work and life responsibilities to fit in what I needed to do for Wink.

I'm not surprised that your 2 civies are acting differently. They may be feeling left out. Be sure to give them treats too, whenever you test Sonny and give him a treat for being such a good boy.

Would you please update your signature and put the insulin and meter you are using for testing in there? Sure would help us out to see that info in each post. Also, the diagnosis date. Chris and China gave you the how to's a couple of posts up in this thread.

Looked at your SS. Please let us know when you have a chance to update it. Right now, there is only one number on there, from 12/1 PMPS. Many people even list the food they feed over in the Remarks column.
 
Also..I see SS...but I have no idea how to post..I am on an android..do I need my laptop to do that?..I'm sorry I'm such a techno-weenie..my son just moved out and he was my wizard...grrrr...getting MOST things..but totally ignorant in others...lol...Yikes!!!
 
I'm a techno-weenie too but I can use my Android to update mine...but it's a LOT easier on the laptop

You have to sign into your Google account and the biggest problem is that the screen size is so small that you can't read anything. You can expand it (of course) but then you lose where you are.

Maybe someone else has better luck with their Android and can tell both of us how it would work better :lol:
 
I can't find my SS..it was there..I erased what was in my signature area to post requested info..now what..lol..
 
Yeah Beth Anne...go to your Spreadsheet and click on "Share" up in the right corner. Choose "anyone with the link" and hit "Done" and you're good to go!

Glad you were able to get into it again!
 
Thought I could get it back..I'm on an android..I have laptop..will get into it..last test @1040pm..BG 151..due for shot at 130am..I'm not shooting..right?
I do not know how to import my SS back into my signature page..I told ya..big weenie...lol
 
Mornin..ok..here is the deal..my Sonny..is running in th mid 100's...1 unit yesterday morn at 9:30am..haven't shot him since..right decision?..
 
Numbers in mid 100's..keep shooting per 12hrs?

Hi..my Sonny is for 24 hrs..holding at 150-180..I'm afraid to shoot..Please tell me how to figure.....should I just keep at 1 unit on schedule?
Also..Civvie is REFUSING to eat..2 were..One has come around..other..hiding behind my closet door..REFUSING any variety of food..
 
Beth Anne, you need to click on the link to your spreadsheet that's in your signature and change the permissions so we can see it. Just click on the link, look at the top right for the word "SHARE" in blue. Click that and a new pop up will be there.

You'll see "Who has access" and the first choice under there will have the blue word "Change"..Click on the "change" and choose "Anyone with the link". Hit "Save"

Without seeing the numbers Sonny has been getting, it's impossible to advise you on your dosage.

If the 150-180 are his pre-shot numbers, we need to know where he's at in the middle of the cycles.

Hope you can get that done so we can help you!
 
I still can't view your spreadsheet. Within the spreadsheet, go to File -> Publish to the Web. Check the box that says "Automatically republish when changes are made" and copy the link that appears in the box under "Get a link to the published data." It should start with "https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub..." Use that link to share with us here so we can view it without having to request permission.

First guess without seeing the numbers is that 1u is too high a dose if you're skipping shots. I would probably drop it to .75u the next time it's safe to shoot. What is your current "No shot" number? 200 or 150?

For the Civvie not eating, you can try sprinkling a little parmesan or oregano on the cat food to entice him to eat. Both of my kitties go absolutely insane for parmesan.
 
Some more ideas for the Civvie not eating. Sprinkle on the food or try these

Some crumbled freeze dried chicken treats. Wink loved the Halo Liv-a-little treats crumbled on his food.
Or some tuna juice poured over the food if your civie likes tuna.
Or some bonito flakes sprinkled on the food.
Or try heating up the canned food. That makes it smell more and can be more appealing to a cat that does not want to eat.

Any signs of a URI in the civie that is not eating? URI often goes hand in hand with a lessened sense of smell and taste so that could be a reason for not eating.
 
Beth Anne

I fixed your SS link and put it back in your signature block. It's working now so others can see it. You will need to update it, though.
 
Thank you Marje..I'm just baffled at the not eating..it was so sudden.....in relation to Sonny and
dealing with the testing and shooting...I'm thinking he may be giving off some scent..and I'm calm..but maybe she can sense my depression and worry..my son has a Weimeranar..not living here anymore...He left just a couple of weeks ago...and she has always stayed in my room...now he is gone and that is another CHANGE..and lots of change. .I lost another brother in Sept...ATV accident. .and his EX WIFE is handling the estate...along with my 2 adult nieces..so I'm still grieving that and really disliking her involvement..it's a whole Lotta stuff in 90 days....need to get my feelings sorted..and..I'm recouping from 2 spine surgeries...I guess my path is being tested..thought I could share some of my stress that could be putting my energy field in a negative place that the animals are picking up on..hope I'm not sharing too much..let me know if I need to keep my topics more on track...thanks y'all...don't want to cross any boundaries that I don't know about..
Bless you all for your help and support!!
 
Also..I got new carpet in my house..could the cats be absorbing something that's making them sick?..
It's been about 2 weeks since it was installed...Sonny..despite the diagnosis. .is doing good..I'm BAFFLED!
THANKS AGAIN!!
 
This is a great place to vent. Many of us have all the other issues that complicate the FD sugar dance ( as we call it around here)

Stress can be a factor but it usually needs to be something severe like everyone is yelling... or there are small children chasing me... or I'm locked in a room all the time.
The not eating could possibly be fatigue of a certain food.
Often they will like something for a few days and then it becomes.... "what, this again?"
I have to rotate my cat's food each meal... she won't eat the same thing twice in a row. :roll:

With FD, you really start to learn all your cats individual traits. You become very fine tuned to their needs.
So, welcome to cat servitude. :lol:
 
###Spread sheet help###

Hi...I am trying to put #'s in spreadsheet..There is no way..I can find..to enter the #'s..it won't let me post/change anything. .what is the secret here...yes..I am very challenged..I see the colored sheet .but no matter what I click on...it won't let me post...Please help!!
 
Beth Anne

You can't change any numbers by clicking on the link in FDMB.

Sign into your google account and click on the place where your picture goes.
Click on "account"
Click on "products"
Click on "docs"
You'll see the SS. Open it there and enter the numbers.
 
Beth Anne,

Vent all you need to. We are here not only for support with the how to's of caring for a newly diagnosed sugarkitty, but with moral and emotional support for the other things going on in your life. From what you have posted, your stress level must be through the roof.

Please, remember to take some quiet time for yourself each and every day. Clear your mind, and do some deep breathing exercises for at least 10 minutes. It won't make any of the responsibilities in your life go away, but it will help you to de-stress and help Sonny better and it will keep you healthier too.
 
Hi all....things are better..ive updated my SS...ive got alot of blue going on...and im only using 1 unit...i think i can see better overall numbers....but wont get too comfortable....as u can see...i got a whole day of testing posted..WHOO HOO...so you can see the 2 hour progressions...due for shot at 10pm PST...Going to shoot even under 200...i think i have enough info to do it comfortably....then have monitor for a couple of post tests....Thanks everyone...see how it goes....everyone eating again...and now that the diarrhea has subsided in the civvies....we are going gang busters.....wheeee....XO..BA and Sonny
 
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