Is it normal??

aimscat

aimscat

Member
Hi. My little guy just got diagnosed with diabetes last friday and I am wondering how soon I should expect any change. Tobey is 16 and usually weighs between 9 and 10 lbs. My husband and I got sick pretty bad at the beginning of the year and Tobey seemed to get a cold soon after.... We saw his behavior change soon after. He started drinking a bunch of water and urinating a lot. He also started pooping outside of his box about a month ago. We kept letting the behavior go and thinking he just wasn't feeling well. However, he also started getting boney, I could feeling the bones in his back when I held him.... I started to worry a lot and my husband tried to calm me down, but I finally had to take him in. The vet weighed him and he weighed 6.7lbs. Tobey has never been that small! The vet did a blood panel and called me back that night and said he had diabetes. I went in the next day and was shown how to give him insulin.
We have changed his diet over from limited ingredient Blue Buffalo dry food and wet Wellness food every other day to 1 can of purina proplan veterinary diet dm 5.5 oz. We give him half a can twice a day with a freeze dried salmon cube crumbled over the top. While he is eating I give him .5 unit of vetsulin. So far we haven't seen a huge change... Tobey is usually a grazer, so he is having a hard time with the only eating twice a day. I know he has only been on the insulin for about 5 and a half days, but even in that time he seems to have days when he seems better and days when he seems the same. I am trying to not freak out because I know any new diet and/or medication can take time, but I am terrified that I am doing or will do something wrong.
I was just wondering if I should be super worried or if I should give it a little more time. My vet did not mention any other type of insulin and did not talk about testing at home.
Tobey also has a lump/growth on his chin that has seemed to go down after we started him on insulin. Sometimes it is more firm and sometimes, usually after he eats/ gets insulin, it seems to get more squishy/shrink. Besides having a slight heart murmer (a 2 out of 6), Tobey has never had any other issues.

I guess I am just freaking out and wondering if I should be calling the vet more or just let Tobey get more used to the new routine. My vet never even set up a second visit, so I don't even know when I should get him back in to be checked on. I am thinking of trying to get him another appointment next friday, so that it has been at least 2 weeks of trying everything.

Thank you for any help you can give!!

Aimee
 
Welcome Aimee and Tobey.

It is an overwhelming dx. If you can the best thing to do is home test Tobey. You need to know if its safe to give insulin and to see the progress. Are you in the states? Human meter is just fine to use. The most affordable one is the Walmart brand Relion. Its the cost of the strips that need to be considered, it is what you use the most of. Another thing is the DM food, if its the pate it is okay to use, but not necessary to use prescription food. Most here use Friskies, or Fancy Feast Classic Pate. It is low in carbs and that is what you want and its cheaper. However with the virus thing, most vendors are out of stock. It is actually better to feed small multiple feeding through out the day, just no food 2 hrs before shot time.

We are very data driven here. Can you get this spreadsheet up and attached to your profile in the signature section?

Spreadsheet

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

Profile
 
Hi Aimee, first please go to where it says forums and resd the sticky Beginner's Guide to Caninsulin (Vetsulin)
Its really important to test at home to make sure it is safe to give Tobey the vetsulin
It is a fast acting insulin and he can drop pretty fast which is dangerous
Also you should wait 30 minutes after feeding him to give the vetsulin
I know it is overwhelming but we all ate here to help you
I thought I wouldn't be able to test at home, but it became very easy
Most of us use human meters from Walmart Relion Prime , 9 dollars
The test strips are like 17.99 for 100
You will be testing a lot in the beginning
Most of us feed Fancy Feast Pate or Friskies Pate and feed multiple times a day, just not 2 hours before you test him in the morning and at night
You will want to test him around 2 hours after giving vetsulin and more tests after that depending on his BG

There is a food list in the Feline Health Forum Dr Pierson's food chart
We try to feed food that is under 10 percent carbs

Vetsulin isn't the best insulin for cats, but if you start testing at home you can see how it is affecting Tobey, a lot is our kitties ate on Lantus or Prozinc

You can read about them in the forums

I know it is scary but we are all here to help you, I don't know what I would have done without this amazing group and their advice

One step at a time, we can help you with learning how to test, set up your signature and spreadsheet

You can take a look at mine or anyone else's

Testing at home is the only way to keep your kitty safe
Ask as many questions as you want
About his chin, I assume the vet hasn't taken a look at it yet

This is the best place you can be with all the experienced members
 
Hi Aimee and welcome to the message board.
How did you find us?

What Diane and Paula said already, is just about everything I would have said.
Once you get some information set up, we'll be able to help you better.

I know this is very worrisome to you. Hang in there, it will get better.
 
((((Amiee & Tobey))))
Its daunting at first isnt it. Scary too. BUT you have found the best site on the planet to help you help Toby. One thing that helped me at first was: Diabetes is not a sprint race its a marathon. Once you get into a routine it WILL get better.;)
WELCOME TO OUR FAMILY FDMB :bighug:
jeanne
 
Hello Aimee, welcome to FDMB! You've got a lot of great information here to get you started, so I'll just touch on a couple extra things not yet mentioned.

Since you said you were partly feeding Wellness, you can actually keep using it (exclusively, no more Blue Buffalo) if you'd like, simply check the variations' carb amount on the Catinfo.org chart. I would link it but am on mobile and it keeps downloading instead haha! Anything under 10% in the carb bracket will suffice.

If you decide to home test there is no need to schedule another vet appointment anytime soon, the only thing they can offer at this point is checking his blood sugar for you which you can do at home for much cheaper. The vet may mention doing a glucose curve but again, you can do this at home where he is less stressed. By hometesting you can be aware of how his diabetes is doing at any moment and with daily data you can turn to the members here to guide him to healthier numbers. There's not much a vet can do, it's very much a caregiver's burden.

As for how long until he gets to feeling better... depends on the cat but it often takes weeks/months depending on how badly the cat's pancreas is damaged and how well we're staying on top of it.

I would suggest an insulin change however; Vetsulin is pretty harsh on kitty cats, it's recommended you have food available 1 hour post-shot as Vetsulin is notorious for causing blood sugar to nosedive at that time. Prozinc is good, Lantus is even better. If you would like to switch we can help you arrange for where to purchase either one for cheaper than your vet office.

Please feel free to ask any and all questions! Good luck :)
 
Hi, thank you all for your help!! I will look into all this information and try to get my hands on a home tester and strips asap! I will definitely try to see about getting a better insulin for Tobey. We are just super worried about him and feel terrible that we let him get so small, so now we are terrified that we won't do what we are supposed to and he is our baby, so we just want to do what is best for him!
I will try to get more info and get you all updated as soon as possible.
On an aside, yes we are in the US and I found this site online while doing a search trying to find out how much Tobey should be eating. He has always been a grazer and a beggar, so now we are trying to figure out if we are feeding him enough.

Thank you all for your responses!!
Aimee
 
Unregulated diabetic cats can not process their food correctly.

Feed him more food, if he still tells you he is hungry.
How many cans of food are you feeding him now? How many ounces of food?
 
We started him on one 5.5 oz can (of Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diets DM Savory Selects) a day. We were giving him half at 9am and half at 9pm with one or two cubes of freeze dried salmon crushed over the top. We started this diet March 28th. However, he was weighed on the 27th at 6.7 lbs and after a week, he had dropped down to 6.4 lbs and is now down to 6.2 lbs. We are now giving him one and a half cans a day, we had him on one can in the morning and half at night, but considering his insulin is not changing, we started him today on 3/4 can at each feeding with the cube crushed on top. We are terrified by his weight loss and while in the first couple of days he seemed to be doing better (less water intake/drooling/urinating) he was still losing a bunch of weight, so we are trying to figure out how to get him more food without messing with his insulin intake. After we started trying to give him more food, his issues started escalating again... (water intake, drooling, urinating, he seems to want to sleep all day)

He is getting a half unit of vetsulin with each meal. We just purchased a glucose meter, so that we can start testing him tonight. I asked the pharmacist about Lantus, but he said I need a prescription for it, so I will have to wait til I go back to the vet to be able to switch him over. I really appreciate everyone's help here and will try to get as much info as possible to you guys. I work graveyard and am not always on my computer, but I will try to be on here more often.

I am so worried about his personality changes and I just want him to feel better. He is not playful at all anymore and the only time he really seems active is when he follows us around the house begging for food...

Also, the thing on his chin, was reacting well when we first started him on insulin, it got more squishy and he didn't mind when we touched it. I am wondering if it is a blister or an ulcer, it is somewhat firm right now and he doesn't like it to be touched, but a blister feels that way when it is full...? Has anyone else had issues with this??? I read that diabetics get infections easier so I don't want to mess with it, I keep wondering if I could use one out his insulin needles to try to drain it...? Does that sound stupid?? The vet noticed it when I took him in on the 27th, but wanted to do a blood panel before we did anything with it... They called me that night to let me know he was diabetic and I got them to get me in the next day to give me insulin and show me how to adminster it, however it was not the vet who showed me how to do it and she was not there that day. I called and talked to the vet last week to let her know that the chin thing had changed and she told me to keep an eye on it, but since then it has regressed to how it was before.

I am jut freaking out a ton, I had a crying fit at work last night, feeling like I did this to him and freaking out that we might lose him. My poor husband was trying to calm me down... Seeing him this morning when we got home made me feel better, but I am terrified for him every day. This is giving me way more anxiety than the Coronavirus ever could. I can't imagine our world without our little guy.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help!!
Aimee
 
That is not a lot of food for an unregulated diabetic. My cat was up to 12 oz of food a day for a long time. She was also down to 4 (!!) lbs. The weight came back when I switched her off Vetsulin and lowered the dose (she was very overdosed at the time). Let Tobey eat more, purchase a Petsafe 5 Auto Feeder to help you out. There are used ones on Ebay as well. Feed him multiple times a day, moreso in the first half of the cycle. The Savory Selects is higher in carbs so his blood sugar will run higher because of it, keep that in mind. Make sure he is getting food during the night as well.

I know you're worried about Tobey but let us assure you, when our cats were first sick they were just in as bad a state as him, it's not an indication of the end!
I'm happy to hear you have a meter now, don't get frustrated if you don't get a reading tonight tho! It took me nearly a week to get the hang of it so don't stress. Please post your results and keep us updated, once you get a solid string of readings for us to review we can help you decide if Tobey needs any adjustments. Hang in there!

Do you have a picture of that spot on his chin we can see?
 
So the food he is on now is not good??? He is very furry, so any picture I take is not coming out, but I will keep trying to get a good one. It is the size of his entire chin, spanning from under his lip to the under side of his chin. How do I figure out how many carbs are in the food??? I have a bunch of wellness food too, would that be better??
 
It's not TERRIBLE by any means but it is higher than what we like to use. Ideally we stay 5% or under in carbs. Savory Selects is 10%, but anything under 10% is acceptable. So close but could be better (AND cheaper). Lots of the Wellness food is low-carb, you can look at all wet foods on this catinfo chart here. It will tell you the carb amounts. Most of us use Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies Pate, based on affordability and quality, but there's dozens of others to choose from, including Wellness. Take a look and see if the versions you have are good :)
 
Aimee, First of all, big hugs. :bighug: These are trying times. Feline diabetes is difficult enough to deal with, and then this virus on top of that is too much to handle some days.

While the Purina DM Savory Selects are a bit higher in carbs, they can still be an ok choice for your kitty. I think the most important thing right now, is to get your cat to eat more.

It's ok to feed at times other than when you give insulin. It's best to not feed for 2 hours before the pre-shot blood glucose (BG) test. It's better not to feed in the last half of the 12 hour insulin dosing cycle, as that simple makes the BG levels go up faster, as the insulin has basically been used up.

Would you please update your User Id "Signature", so we can help you better. Through the "magic" of computers, that "Signature" will appear at the end of each of your posts. The directions are below, highlighted in blue, simply click on the blue text to open the directions.
Editing your Signature, Profile, and Preferences

p.s. I come here, to help diabetic kitties, so I don't have the time to freak out about the virus.
 
i just started the spreadsheet this morning and bought the meter this morning. I haven't done any blood messuring yet, so it as updated as I can get. I checked the numbers and most of the numbers for the wellness foods I have are 4-6 %, except for the lobster (11 %). However, when trying to find carb info on the food he is on, I could not find it, but comparative to the wellness food it is better, not worse...? I think you are thinking of the normal savory selects. I can change him over if it is necessary, but I feel more comfortable with him on this food, unless it is actually high in carbs, but all the numbers I am seeing are not high. 12.5 % crude protein, 2.5 % crude fat, 1 % crude fiber, 78 % moisture and .05% taurine 173 kcal/can...
 
Those Wellness options are great sans the lobster! He is on DM Savory Selects correct? It's listed under Purina Pro Plan Veterinary Diets.
The numbers on the can do not give carb amounts, there are calculators you can use to determine the correct percentage, perhaps Deb is better at explaining it than me. I would switch back to the Wellness.
 
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I looked at the numbers and it looks like Fancy Feast Classic and Naturals are some of the best. Years ago, i switched Tobey to grain free because he had loose bloody stool constantly. We switched to wellness dry, than eventually Blue Buffalo Limited dry, with Wellness/Blue canned every once in a while. Besides this new food, he has not been on a none grain free diet in years... Will putting him back on Fancy Feast hurt his system??? I am just trying to keep him as constant as possible without hurting him. Sorry, I have looked at the food chart a couple of times and can not find his food. Maybe I am looking at the wrong chart. I will look again.
 
How much should we be feeding him??? he is eating about 7.5 - 8 oz of food right now... How much should he be eating, because I am sure he could eat two 5.5 oz a day if we gave it to him... Will he need to be eating a lot until we can switch him to another insulin??
 
Look on page 61 of the food chart. The DM Savory Selects are there. https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

Yes, feed him 2 of the 5.5 oz cans a day if he will eat that much. He'll need to be eating a lot, until his diabetes is better regulated.

Especially if he is losing weight still and should not be. My diabetic cat was easily eating 10-12 ounces of food a day, and was still losing weight.

The Fancy Feast pate style foods do not have grains in them. The Fancy Feast Naturals pate styles do not have grains in them.

Does Tobey have IBD? or allergies to certain ingredients? Like fish?
 
The percentages of ingredients you see in the canned foods are only the minimum and maximum amounts that a manufacturer has in a food. Those percentages you see on the food label, are what is called the "Guaranteed Analysis."

Those min/max values do not give you a true picture of the carbs,protein and fat amounts in a food.
For that, you need to get the "As Fed" values from the manufacturer. A vet, that is very interested in cat nutrition, Dr. Lisa Pierson did that back in 2017, for all those foods you see listed on her food chart. Then she ran all the numbers through a calculator that uses the amount of calories in a particular component (like fat) to get the percentages for the major components - carbs, protein, fats.

There have been some new foods introduced since 2017, that are not on Dr. Lisa Pierson's food chart. Like the Fancy Feast Naturals line. You want to look for the foods that are not "in gravy" or foods that use a different thickener than a flour or starch to thicken the food.
 
aimscat said:
i just started the spreadsheet this morning and bought the meter this morning. I haven't done any blood messuring yet, so it as updated as I can get.
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I think you misunderstood, when I asked you to update your User Id "Signature."

Your signature where you have only the SS (spreadsheet) link right now should contain other information. Such as your first name, your cat's name age and sex, the diabetes diagnosis date, the insulin you are giving, the meter you use for testing, any other health condition your cat may have like CKD or HyperT or IBD. As well as your SS link.
 
okie dokers. Sorry I was trying to figure all this food stuff out and find out what is the best food out of what I currently have. Looks like the Wellness Core might have it. ;-) Sorry, I will start filling out all the other info. I think I am coming off bad and I apologize if I am. Just want to understand everything as much as possible. Again I think you all for your help!!
 
No apologies needed. I should probably apologize to you. Overworked right now, trying to help as many people as possible on the message board. Sorry. You are not coming out "bad". It's just that like health care workers, we get overwhelmed here too, with people asking for our help.

That is why the "Signature" info is so helpful.

Keep asking questions. It's how we all learn.

I'm more of a very direct answers style poster. "Just the facts mam" style. That can be off putting to some people. Sorry if you took it that way. Doesn't help that my kitty is bugging me for dinner. Not an excuse right now. So sorry if you took things wrong. Wish I could talk to people in person, but that is not possible. Tone of voice says so much more than the written word can ever do.

p.s. We are chronically shorthanded and even more so with this covid19 virus going around.
 
You didn't come off bad, I re-read through my posts and thought I sounded argumentative. Just want to make sure. ;-) I appreciate you explaining the food stuff, because I was trying to figure it out and I couldn't. I think I am going to finish off the little bit of ProPlan I have left, I will probably start giving him a can at each feeding, than I will probably have to buy more food because I only have 3 oz cans of the other foods and it sounds like my little guy is going to need a bunch of food. The turkey/duck Wellness Core has a low carb count and is closest to what he has been eating. It does have Pork Liver in it and I was reading that too much liver can be bad for cats, should I try to limit it?? I am a straight talk kind of person, I much prefer direct answers anyway. ;-) Is this signature better?? Is there more I should add??
 
The above images are the best images I could get of his chin... whatever it is that is going on, is drawing the skin so tight across his chin it looks like he can't properly close his mouth. He is back to drooling a lot... When we started his insulin, 03 29 2020, his drool started getting more stringy/sticky, now he is back to very watery drool. Could the chin thing be causing his mouth to not close and cause extra drool??
 
Signature is wonderful! Thanks so much for those updates. Through the "magic" of computers, that information now shows up at the bottom of each of your posts. Even those posts that you wrote before you added that information to your signature. Isn't technology amazing?

Look inside his mouth, at the gums surrounding the teeth and the teeth themselves. Describe what it looks like. Color, swelling, etc. Any bleeding from inside his mouth? Any signs of blood in his drool? Even small traces? Wipe his mouth with a white tissue, and look at the color on the tissue for traces of blood. Don't confuse the color with the food colorings in the food he is eating.

Yes, the fact he can not close his mouth all the way, can be the reason he is drooling. Saliva takes the path of least resistance, which is outside his mouth instead of being swallowed like normal. Don't know if you ever followed Lil Bub, facebook cat. But she could not close her mouth all the way due to genetic deformities in her jaw and drooled constantly.
aimscat said:
The turkey/duck Wellness Core has a low carb count and is closest to what he has been eating. It does have Pork Liver in it and I was reading that too much liver can be bad for cats, should I try to limit it??
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Some liver is good for cats. I would not limit that. Liver is going to have some carb content to it, but probably not enough to make a difference in a cat's BG readings.

p.s. If you would please click on the word "Like" at the bottom of a post, that tells us you have read it. It's the only use I see for "Liking" a post. Sometimes, I may simply click on the "Like" to let someone know I have read the post. There may not always be a reply.
 
I did not see any blood. I called and made a vet appointment for him tomorrow. I am wondering if he has a tooth abscess that has gotten really bad. He is relatively old for a cat, so I am wondering if he has a bad tooth and is draining into his chin area... is that possible?? About 5 years back he got a cold and they ended up pulling 7 teeth, including a canine. Maybe it is another tooth issue...??
 
Yes, it could be a tooth issue or a gum issue. Whatever is going on, it's good that you made a vet appointment for Ninja. That visit to the vet was going to be my next suggestion.

Those pictures, with his mouth open lets you see where the swelling is. The right lower side looks the worst. How did you ever get him to let you do that?

Keep us posted and let us know how the vet appointment goes tomorrow.
 
He hates pictures in general, as you can see from the earlier facial pictures. I had to just be quick. I will definitely post after the vet visit.
 
Another thing I was thinking of. Since we switched his diet and started the insulin, his poop has been really dark and waxy looking.. is that normal?? It is always solid, just very dark and waxy
 
Dark colored poops are normal, from the food he is eating.

Not sure what you mean by "waxy" looking.

This may sound weird, but picture?
I've asked other people to do this, so could you take a picture of the poops, next chance you get?
We look at "poop" pictures all the time. You may need to scrape some of the litter off the poop, so we aren't looking at the litter stuck to the outside. Maybe break a section open, to see what the inside reveals.

Well formed is what we are looking for. Maybe some hair mixed into the sample. You said it was "solid" looking, so that is a good sign.

Maybe take a sample into your vet to look at also. Needs to be fresh, or refrigerated if you get the sample overnight.
 
So, first off we use pellets for litter, so that is the saw dust looking stuff on the poo. I don't know if it looks enough like it, but the poo is waxy and/or kind of shiny. The second image is the inside of the poo.
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That looks pretty normal to me. But you might want to save that sample, and take it with you to the vet appointment tomorrow.

Plastic bag, in the fridge. Sealed. Overnight is fine.
I've made the mistake of not refrigerating the feces sample, and having to get another one and make an extra trip to the vet and back.
 
For the last month or so, he has been pooping outside of the box. Right next to the front door. Now that I need a sample from him, he is actually pooping in his box and covering it, which he never does.
 
Just took Tobey to the vet. They are not sure what it is on his chin, are going to put him on anti inflammatory/ antibiotics. They took his blood sugar around 2ish, so +5 and it was at 475.. She mentioned upping his insulin dose, but we agreed that we needed to get his chin stuff under wraps first. I mentioned Lantus to her and she said that I could definitely change if I would like. She just also mentioned that it cost quite a bit more then Vetsulin, than said they have recently done studies that say Vetsulin is comparable... However, she said she had 3 diabetic cats and she used Lantus for all of them.
Anyway, that is his vet update.
 
I just gave tobey a onsior pill and he drank a bunch of water and fell asleep right away. Does anyone have experience with onsior??
 
aimscat said:
I just gave tobey a onsior pill and he drank a bunch of water and fell asleep right away. Does anyone have experience with onsior??
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Maybe ask this question in the Feline Health forum.
I have no experience with it.

Lantus can be ordered in a mini-vial, called an insulin pen. Many people here order from Marks Marine Pharmacy, and they have a backlog for the lantus, due to shipping issues due to the covid19 virus. They are offering Basaglar, which is a biosimilar insulin to the Lantus/glargine. You do need a script from your vet first, before you can order.

Ordering Lantus, Basaglar, or Levemir from Canadian pharmacies

Vetsulin usually only last 8-10 hours in most cats.
Lantus lasts the full 12 hours of a dosing cycle and sometimes longer in some cats.
 
aimscat said:
Does anyone have experience with onsior??
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It is a pain killer and anti-inflammatory. My tomcat has been on it for arthritis and after he got beat up. I believe there is a limit on how frequently you can give it long-term in the US.
As I've told a couple other people here lately, you can use the Supply Closet and purchase a pen of Lantus without a script to hold you over until Marks' catches up their shipments.
 
Panic said:
It is a pain killer and anti-inflammatory. My tomcat has been on it for arthritis and after he got beat up. I believe there is a limit on how frequently you can give it long-term in the US.
As I've told a couple other people here lately, you can use the Supply Closet and purchase a pen of Lantus without a script to hold you over until Marks' catches up their shipments.
Click to expand...
Hi there , I have been telling others also the same thing about the supply closet, I see some pens are available there as of now. Have a nice day
 
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